A Bored Electrician to Answer Your Questions
- Thread starter IAm5toned
- Start date
IAm5toned
Well-Known Member
its alot more complicated that just installing a panel and adding some outlets. you should hire a pro... i wish i could give you an idea on price but its simply too complicated to give you an accurate guess, and im not familiar with san mateo building codes.
IAm5toned
Well-Known Member
lol Cali is a good 2k mile drive for me, my friend.. you sure your willing to occur that kind of expense? lol...
BAM!
watercooled@
Active Member
Hey man, hope all is well. My room is coming along nicely... can't wait to see these MONSTER TOMATOES!lol, ok, there are lots of things to consider here:
1) you didnt mention a neutral anywhere. you should have 2 Ungrounded Conductors (hot wires, phase a (blk) and phase b(red)) 1 Grounded Conductor (neutral, or 'white' wire) 1 Equipment Grounding Conductor.(the ground, green or bare wire)so 4 wires for a 240v subpanel... the neutral needs to be the same size as the two 110v feeders, which will be 4/0 (i'll explain that later, keep reading) the ground, however can be #6 Cu, or #4 Al. so you save a penny there, because you will need to run a ground:
2) if your sub panel is in a seperate free standing structure like a shed or unattatched garage, then it needs it's own ground rod. codes require that you should also bond (connect)the ground of the sub-panel to the ground of the main panel. again, the wire size for this connection is #6Cu, or #4Al. if you do not have space in your main panel's ground bar for such a large wire, you can bolt a grounding lug to the inside of the main panel. note that i said bolt, and not screw... if the sub panel is simply located somewhere else in the same builiding as the main, than an additional ground rod is not required. however tying the 2 grounds together (between the main and the sub) is something you have to do.
3) the neutral bar in the sub panel shall not be bonded to the can enclosure... this bonding screw is bright green in color, and should be removed if it comes installed in the panel's neutral bar, or discarded/set aside if it comes loose inside the panel.. this is important, do not overlook it.
I'm pretty confused on my next connection, how to do it safely and how to properly ground my sub panel.
Here is what I have so far:
Two 110 hots coming from taps through copper 2/0. The taps are above the existing main panel for the house and those wires were also 2/0.
My "sub panel" is just a main breaker panel 150 AMP rating on it with a main breaker.
So... I am left with running two more wires, but I'm not sure where to connect them to in the new panel. The ground from the main panel will simply go to the ground in the sub panel?
The nuetral will go to the nuetral bar and I'm done?
I'll take pics and post tomorrow if it will help any.
BikerDude
Member
I just built a new grow room and have some questions:
I want to run a sub-panel to my grow room and want to know if I should run a 10/3 feeder or an 8/3 feeder. Here is what I have layed out...using 14/2 wiring. {or should I use 12/2}
Circuit 1: Dedicated line to my 6" exhaust fan.
Circuit 2: Dedicated line to my 600wt. grow light
Circuit 3: 2 GFCI outlets and one regular outlet
Circuit 4: Single pole light switch to an overhead light and then on to a regular outlet. {I will use 14/3 between the switch and the light
I was thinking all I need is 4-15 amp breakers to do this; one for each circuit.
How close am I?
Thanks,
BikerDude
I want to run a sub-panel to my grow room and want to know if I should run a 10/3 feeder or an 8/3 feeder. Here is what I have layed out...using 14/2 wiring. {or should I use 12/2}
Circuit 1: Dedicated line to my 6" exhaust fan.
Circuit 2: Dedicated line to my 600wt. grow light
Circuit 3: 2 GFCI outlets and one regular outlet
Circuit 4: Single pole light switch to an overhead light and then on to a regular outlet. {I will use 14/3 between the switch and the light
I was thinking all I need is 4-15 amp breakers to do this; one for each circuit.
How close am I?
Thanks,
BikerDude
watercooled@
Active Member
Here are the pics...
My questions are where to attach the green wire going from the sub panel? Where does it go on the main panel? In the same place as the bare one?
Then for 220 on the new panel, the bare wires go on the far outside of the panel?
For 110, I get hot (black) from the breaker and nuetral (white) from ??? I assume ground from the spots directly behind the breakers?
And just a preview...
Tank you for your help!
I took a while sifting through this information and guess my main question is other than making sure you have heavy duty timers for a 400w hps. What other safety type things do i need.
Also I was wondering for a 400w HPS in a decently large space (20-25 ft sq not all grow area, grow area ~15 ft sq) how can i keep it cool?
(Other than just having the ballast on a safe place and etc)
Thanks
Casbud
Also I was wondering for a 400w HPS in a decently large space (20-25 ft sq not all grow area, grow area ~15 ft sq) how can i keep it cool?
(Other than just having the ballast on a safe place and etc)
Thanks
Casbud
IAm5toned
Well-Known Member
OK... one pic at a time. you have some pretty big no-no's going on in that subpanel, so put the joint down and please read closely:
pic one- has some VERY IMPORTANT THINGS that need to change like RIGHT NOW!
1, and most important-one the right hand side of the panel, on the neutral bus bar, there is a green bonding screw. remove this screw immediately and discard it. this is a critical step, you cannot bond the neutral in a sub panel, it can mess up the circuit paths and potentially energize any wire that is connected to the ground bar... in other words it could make the frames of your ballasts live! so get rid of that green bonding screw.
2- The green wire is connected to the neutral bus. this is wrong. you only do that in the main panel or service entry point, never in a sub panel. so move the green wire to the equipment ground bus, your panel has two of them, located on either side of the panel, they are the aluminum ground bars attached directly to the metal cabinet of the panel. it doesnt matter which one it goes on. also, all the green or bare ground wires coming into the panel need to be landed on these ground bars as well. DO NOT land the ground wires to the neutral bus which is located on the insulated panelboard, under any circumstances in this panel! in your main panel you can and are supposed to do this, but never in any other panel but the main.
3- for your 110 circuits, the white (neutral) wires should connect to the panel neutral bus. these are the terminals located left and right side ON the insulated panel board. the only wires that can connect to this are neutrals for 110v circuits
do NOT connect the bare ground wires to this neutral bus! put them on the equipment groundbars as discussed in step 2.
4- i still dont see a service conductor (main) from the main panel for the neutral... it needs to be the same size as the 2 hot legs you pulled in.... this is another critical step...
5- the neutral goes where you have the ground connected as shown in pic one, behind the two hot main legs.
pic 2-
both the neutral AND ground feeds to the new sub panel should be connected to where the large bare aluminum and copper wires are connected in the main panel, at the top and behind the two hot mains. (big wires) you should definitely get a double lug kit for the neutral, because the neutral in the main panel is aluminum, and aluminum wires do NOT like to share a lug, so you need a double lug kit to do this right. and some NoAlox compound for the old and new aluminum neutrals, once you move them to the new lug. the noalox anti oxidant compound is a must have for any aluminum wire connection, it is required by both NEC codes and common sense; so dont skimp on it, and use it in both panels. the new lug should bolt in the same screwhole as the old lug, simply remove the old single lug and use the same screw to put the new double lug in its place. then put the wire in the new lug.... make sure its tight.
2. the ground wire (if it is copper, if it is not, you will need another double lug kit) can be connected in the same lug where the larger bare copper wire is landed (behind the red main) in the main panel. copper wires can be double lugged, especially if they are grounds.
pic 3-
you have some sick lighting goin on there my friend, lol... those ballasts might get a little warm
please read this post carefully, and make the changes i reccomended, or else you might get somebody hurt, or cause a fire!
the fact you have no neutral going from the new panel to the main panel is kinda scary man!
Easily Amused
Member
hey. looks like your a jackpot of elec info!! im wiring 4 cfl lights together. what would be the best way: series or parallel??
one11
Active Member
Heres the low down. I am constructing a grow room about 250 feet away from a power source. It is a 30amp 125 volt RV outlet. I've bought the male end and 250 feet of 12/3 copper wire. Is it safe to hook up a 600w light to that? And how would I connect the end of the wiring to the actual light? Thanks ahead of time!
watercooled@
Active Member
OK... one pic at a time. you have some pretty big no-no's going on in that subpanel, so put the joint down and please read closely:
pic one- has some VERY IMPORTANT THINGS that need to change like RIGHT NOW!
1, and most important-one the right hand side of the panel, on the neutral bus bar, there is a green bonding screw. remove this screw immediately and discard it. this is a critical step, you cannot bond the neutral in a sub panel, it can mess up the circuit paths and potentially energize any wire that is connected to the ground bar... in other words it could make the frames of your ballasts live! so get rid of that green bonding screw.
2- The green wire is connected to the neutral bus. this is wrong. you only do that in the main panel or service entry point, never in a sub panel. so move the green wire to the equipment ground bus, your panel has two of them, located on either side of the panel, they are the aluminum ground bars attached directly to the metal cabinet of the panel. it doesnt matter which one it goes on. also, all the green or bare ground wires coming into the panel need to be landed on these ground bars as well. DO NOT land the ground wires to the neutral bus which is located on the insulated panelboard, under any circumstances in this panel! in your main panel you can and are supposed to do this, but never in any other panel but the main.
3- for your 110 circuits, the white (neutral) wires should connect to the panel neutral bus. these are the terminals located left and right side ON the insulated panel board. the only wires that can connect to this are neutrals for 110v circuits
do NOT connect the bare ground wires to this neutral bus! put them on the equipment groundbars as discussed in step 2.
4- i still dont see a service conductor (main) from the main panel for the neutral... it needs to be the same size as the 2 hot legs you pulled in.... this is another critical step...
5- the neutral goes where you have the ground connected as shown in pic one, behind the two hot main legs.
pic 2-
both the neutral AND ground feeds to the new sub panel should be connected to where the large bare aluminum and copper wires are connected in the main panel, at the top and behind the two hot mains. (big wires) you should definitely get a double lug kit for the neutral, because the neutral in the main panel is aluminum, and aluminum wires do NOT like to share a lug, so you need a double lug kit to do this right. and some NoAlox compound for the old and new aluminum neutrals, once you move them to the new lug. the noalox anti oxidant compound is a must have for any aluminum wire connection, it is required by both NEC codes and common sense; so dont skimp on it, and use it in both panels. the new lug should bolt in the same screwhole as the old lug, simply remove the old single lug and use the same screw to put the new double lug in its place. then put the wire in the new lug.... make sure its tight.
2. the ground wire (if it is copper, if it is not, you will need another double lug kit) can be connected in the same lug where the larger bare copper wire is landed (behind the red main) in the main panel. copper wires can be double lugged, especially if they are grounds.
pic 3-
you have some sick lighting goin on there my friend, lol... those ballasts might get a little warm
please read this post carefully, and make the changes i reccomended, or else you might get somebody hurt, or cause a fire!
the fact you have no neutral going from the new panel to the main panel is kinda scary man!
Thank you... The green wire in the sub panel is not connected to anything in the main panel yet.
If I plan on running no more then 15-20 amps on 110 does the nuetral need to be a 2/0 wire as well?
I've drawn on my picture an an attempt to ensure I understand the next step...
Pic 1.
1.) The green screw in the red circle needs to be taken out and discarded.
2.) The green wire needs to be moved and connected to the green circle with an arrow which will be my ground and ground out my green bars.
3.) A new white wire should be run and connected to the current connection point for the green wire, this will provide nuetral to the "white" bars.
4.) I was told I can leave the sub panel's ground and nuetral bonded and run the green wire in this picture to the ground in the main panel and be done. I was told this would be safe and was my current plan until I second guessed myself and asked you for input
Pic 2
In order to connect the ground to the bare copper (circled in green), I remove the wire from it's current living spot, slide it through a slot in the double lug kit and put the back in it's place? You make it sound as if I can remove the whole lug from it's current spot and replace it... I'm not sure If I can I'll have to look tomorrow.
Do I need to shut down the main breaker to do this?
Same for the nuetral which is circled in white? of course using plenty of that KY (noalox) since it's aluminum.
Again, thank you for your help...
IAm5toned
Well-Known Member
always go parallel.
IAm5toned
Well-Known Member
the rv cord should have 3 colors- black white and green. the black is the hot, the white is the neutral, and the green is the ground.
IAm5toned
Well-Known Member
ok, your on the right track.
about the main panel neutral/ground bar- you said your not sure if you can remove the existing lug- you may have to remove the set screw and take the wire completely out of the lug to access the screw that bolts the single lug onto the bus bar... alot of times on those single lugs the screw is actually inside the lug, the only way you can remove it is to take out the wire and set screw. and you will most definitly have to shut the main breaker off to do work on the neutral. seriously. every watt of 110v power that your house is using travels through that main panel neutral feeder, so if your pulling 120 amps of power then theres 120 amps of current on that neutral. i am approaching 2 decades of daily experience dealing with live electricity, and i can say this- getting shocked or shorting a neutral load to ground is far more dangerous than if it was a hot wire with just line voltage... trust me on that one. getting shocked from 110 tingles quite a bit, and is most annoying, but getting shocked from a 110v neutral load is extrememly painful, orders of magnitude worse than the hot... so be careful and make sure the main panel is off before you start.
on the ground wire that is running from the main panel to the sub, i am 80% sure you will not need a double lug, it looks like it will fit in the same lug as the bare wire on the main panel. the only time you need to use double barrel lugs is when using aluminum wires or if it is copper wiring, the single lug is not big enough or rated to handle 2 wires. im prety sure you would be just fine by doubling up the lug, only because it is a ground, and not a current carrying conductor like a neutral or hot leg.
and yes, your new neutral has to be 2/0. not only is it required by more than one law, fire protection acts, and electrical codes, you will appreciate it greatly in the future if you have to expand your op or find another need for power in that area.
a rule of thumb with any electrical circuit is this-
power in = power out
the hot/live wire size= to the neutral or common wire size.
the same amount of current travels the neutral(a/c)/common(d/c) as the hot wire feeding the circuit... think of it like a water pipe, where the hot wire is the supply line, and the neutral is the drain, your 'device' is the tub. the water (current) runs in from the supply line (line voltage) runs through the tub (your device) and then runs down the drain (neutral load) get it? if your drain is smaller than your supply line, then the water gets backed up..... electricity will do the same thing, except when it 'backs up' the wire gets hot and starts to burn.
Easily Amused
Member
thanx man!! big help.
one11
Active Member
yes I know this and I have connected the blackwhitegreen to the male end but its just the other end that im not so sure about. like how to connect the light to it. do i need to get something to attach to the other end so i can plug it in with the light?
watercooled@
Active Member
Thank you!! I have done some more research and seem to have cleared up some of the "old school" advice I received on the the sub panel issue. I trust the person that told me a 3 wire feed would work fine and that he has seen many installed this way... This thread here: http://www.homerepairforum.com/forum/electrical/8176-wiring-sub-panel-garage-5.html gave me some more insight and understanding on sub panels and why my contact was telling me to provide a 3 wire feed to the sub panel.