A Bored Electrician to Answer Your Questions

Kick ass. Thank you. I'll be closing the loop on some issues and details.

The wire taps I planned on using: http://www.horticulturesource.com/c-a-p-custom-automated-products-electrical-wire-tap-for-1-0-4-0-in-out-wire-gauge-p5180/?osCsid=74a51ba889741bb48fe7c890bc23c2aa
Any recommendations on different ones?

In the meantime can you tell me what the difference between a rated NEMA L14-50R or L14-30 plug ex: http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Hubbell-2713-NEMA-14-30-twist-lock-connector-body_W0QQitemZ300378849340QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45eff9803c

and a non rated plug? ex: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=317-6277&cm_mmc=Didit-_-Shopping-_-NA-_-SEM

Obviously the price on the non-rated has me wanting to buy it instead of the rated version!

I may be supplementing my power consumption with a 15kw generator. I still need to do more research on this before I ask questions though...
I'm still reading the whole thread (havn't done anything else today) I'm on post #304 of this thread and keep thinking to myself you have the patience of a saint... you can even answer the same question by quoting yourself!!!

P.S. I've heard through the grapevine that a proper tap can never be found by the power companies. Some ops even claim 10+ years on pre-meter taps. If an op comes under suspicion or investigation the cops can request assistance from the power company and closer analysis shows the tap, but I'm simply repeating hearsay... I have no idea what "training" meter maids (which don't even get out of the vehicles now a days) get to spot a pre-meter tap.

I have heard of some seemingly uneducated and read some poorly formatted posts in which the claim is the electric companies can find "power leaks" The idea is 400kW-hrs were used in a subdivision, but only 380kW-hrs were billed, let's find the missing 20k. This just doesn't make sense to me. Can you give us some education on what companies look for to find pre-meter taps?

I of course am only considering post-meter taps and my grow op is only for tomatoes, which for some reason stoners know so much about

And Enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0u2TfKF33w

love the avatar, just stole it! so, is there anything i can do to prolong the life of a relay? i just got a flip/flop and was told they are easy to swap out and there is some little "trick" that will add life to a rely. any truth to that? thanks!!!

OMG... you people in Cali are SOOOO lucky!!!

this is a link I got to by following a previous link IAm5toned placed...
http://www.times-standard.com/ci_7025586

It's not even ILLEGAL!!!!! I'm so moving!

OK... sped read the #520's and currently on post 589. So you don't quote yourself Here it is:

What I don't get is, If some grow operations are running isolated pre-meter taps into a dedicated main panel which only powers the grow off contractors connected to the legal panel... how does the meter (or the electric company) find this tap? Assuming the tap is well concealed.

IAm5toned said:

yes, it will affect everything....

a smart meter works on the 'power in shall equal power out' law (think it was one of kirchov's voltage laws? or maybe it was one of ohm's laws... my mind gets fuzzy sometimes about the details, lol)
but anyways, here's how it works:

contrary to popular belief, over 95% of all power companies purchase there power from someone else, they just pay far less for it than you do, and in most cases the profits generated are used to maintain the power grid locally, and of course to purchase more power. in the US, usually from a government agency like the DOE, TVA and a few other agencies that are simply a pain in the ass to list here.

what this means for you-
are you familiar with corporate accounting techniques? corporate accountants are notorious for finding lost amounts of cash as minute as .001 of a single penny.
so your local utility shells out a few million bux for a few million KVA'a of power for a billing cycle... then those pesky little corporate accountants (or more realistically, and even worse, a computer) notices that hey, were paying to buy watts, but somehow, some of the watts were paying for are not being accounted for? where did they go? someone must be stealing power! so they call out whats known as a sweep and balance team. a sweep and balance team is like a mobile electrical meter, they go around to various locations on the grid, take readings, and compare them against what the power company's own internal accounting tells them. these people are very very good at what they do and once a tap is suspected, its simply a matter of the power company reviewing its records to determine if the thief has stolen enough power to warrant a sweep and balance search, and if it does think that your friend is stealing, they will come after him with a vengence. tampering with infrastructure (like stealing from a power company) is a federal offense, that carries federal time, so think twice about tapping... its not the 70's anymore......

so what does a smart meter do, and wtf should me and my friend be panicked about it? (and yes, you might want to rethink your operation)

here's why- a smart meter stores each and every single watt of power you use, and depending on the type of smart meter, can transmit this information wirelessly to a meter reader.

but wait, i still dont understand...
ok ill put it in simple terms.. remember the sweep and balance team i was talking bout a few paragraphs ago? the smart meter will take the place of a sweep and balance team. your meter reader presses a button and presto, your usage information is now theres to use in a court of law. and instead of paying linemen a shitload of overtime to sweep and balance, they now do it electronically with a push of a button so to speak.
very bad news for anyone running illegal taps.

i know everyone on this site is more than likely engaging in illegal acts in one form or another, i do it myself, but i can say this with truth and conviction because i know from my own experiences-

ripping off the power company is probably the fastest way to get caught besides opening your mouth and telling the whole town your growing. seriously, its not a laughing matter, and im not joking. i get questions related to taps all the time, and my advice never falters or changes, because i know what the end result will be- you will get caught, you will go to jail, and it will not be the slap on the wrist you expect.

hate to be such a downer but it is the sad truth... i mean if your going to rip someone off, would you pick the strongest guy in town to rob? because thats what you do when you take on a utility, its a losing battle from the getgo, as the utility will be backed by the fed in each and every single case. lotsa bad vibes, you know what i mean? its simply a matter of time. some utilities will knowingly let you steal from them for years, so that the dollar amount in the end run can run into the 100k's, so that they can seize everything you have, sell it by auction and make it viable for them to even go thru the trouble of busting your ass!

Click to expand...

And this one is just for laughs...

chronchron said:

If i have a four-light-socket bank of cfls and I only have 3 bulbs screwed in and one left out will the light bank use less energy than if four are in?

Click to expand...

IAm5toned said:

seriously....

Click to expand...

I hate to make you click a link, but I found some cheap flood lights, but can't tell by looking at them if I can take them apart and remote ballast them for my grow. Here is the link of the light I found

http://www.e-conolight.com/Product/EProductDetail.asp?ProductFamilyID=3&FGNumber=E-HC1H151Z

If the link doesn't work, maybe you could copy/paste directly into your browser. All I want to know if I can remote ballast this particular flood light.

Thanks!

watercooled@ said:

Kick ass. Thank you. I'll be closing the loop on some issues and details.

The wire taps I planned on using: http://www.horticulturesource.com/c-a-p-custom-automated-products-electrical-wire-tap-for-1-0-4-0-in-out-wire-gauge-p5180/?osCsid=74a51ba889741bb48fe7c890bc23c2aa
Any recommendations on different ones?

In the meantime can you tell me what the difference between a rated NEMA L14-50R or L14-30 plug ex: http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Hubbell-2713-NEMA-14-30-twist-lock-connector-body_W0QQitemZ300378849340QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45eff9803c

and a non rated plug? ex: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=317-6277&cm_mmc=Didit-_-Shopping-_-NA-_-SEM

Obviously the price on the non-rated has me wanting to buy it instead of the rated version!

I may be supplementing my power consumption with a 15kw generator. I still need to do more research on this before I ask questions though...
I'm still reading the whole thread (havn't done anything else today) I'm on post #304 of this thread and keep thinking to myself you have the patience of a saint... you can even answer the same question by quoting yourself!!!

P.S. I've heard through the grapevine that a proper tap can never be found by the power companies. Some ops even claim 10+ years on pre-meter taps. If an op comes under suspicion or investigation the cops can request assistance from the power company and closer analysis shows the tap, but I'm simply repeating hearsay... I have no idea what "training" meter maids (which don't even get out of the vehicles now a days) get to spot a pre-meter tap.

I have heard of some seemingly uneducated and read some poorly formatted posts in which the claim is the electric companies can find "power leaks" The idea is 400kW-hrs were used in a subdivision, but only 380kW-hrs were billed, let's find the missing 20k. This just doesn't make sense to me. Can you give us some education on what companies look for to find pre-meter taps?

I of course am only considering post-meter taps and my grow op is only for tomatoes, which for some reason stoners know so much about

And Enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0u2TfKF33w

Click to expand...

i see you found the answer to the question regarding taps. but to elaborate, and to explain the main reason some people have gotten away with running taps, ill give you another nugget to chew on.

some taps on older sections of the power grid or in remote areas, or areas far from a high voltage transmission station (most of the lines you can see are actually medium voltage true high voltage transmission requires catenary towers, as the voltage is in excess of 50kv and needs alot of clear distance to avoid incidental voltage loss and bleed off) can exist for a variety of reasons, one, is that the tap was in place before modern the SCATA system/ grid monitoring was put in place. i mentioned bleed off a second ago, let me elaborate a little bit on it- 'bleed off' is a form of inductance. inductance, in a nutshell, is the transfer of voltage/EMF from one object to another, with no physical contact, via a magnetic field. when you wear rubber soled shoes and drag your feet across a carpet, you are inducting a negative charge upon yourself, because that charge is produced in the rubber soles of your shoes, from dragging them across the nylon in the carpet. that negative charge is known as static electricity, becuase it is voltage that builds without current flow, it doesnt move, its static. that static charge has a magnetic field around it, and that magnetic field inducts electrical energy through you, seeking a path to ground to release the static charge... like when you reach for the doorknob so that is inductance.... keep it in mind.
because it happens to the power lines. it happens alot, in fact its a major problem with modern power grid systems... some estimates say that as much as 60% of all generated electrical energy is lost in transmission either from voltage drop, or bleed off due to inductance. In some areas (i have personally done this myself in clarksville, tn) the bleed off is so bad under transmission towers you can literally hold a t8 floro lamp in your hand and it will light up from all the bleed off from the overhead lines.
power company engineers have to compensate for this bleed off in there usage algorithims... and in remote areas and areas far from substations, this bleed off is very high.... so, in theory, if you were out in the sticks, or have had your tap in place for ages, then there is a chance that the usage could get lost in the shuffle, and be accounted for as bleed off, or voltage drop on older systems still used by the power companies. but its a very risky gamble to take. i wouldnt recomend it to anyone.

to answer your question about the plugs...
well its pretty obvious for starters... one is a male adapter, and the other is a female adapter... (note when i say 3 wire, im never counting the ground. the ground wire is always part of the circuit and should not be counted as a current carrying conductor)
the female (the 2713) is a NEMA rated twist lock, and it shows in the price. it is also a 250v plug, which is for single phase, 3wire (2 hots and a neutral)service with ground.

the male (the 6277) is not NEMA rated, but it is a twist lock. this cord end is a 250v plug, which is for 3 phase, 3 wire (3 hot wires) service w/ground. however, one of the three poles can be used as a neutral, but only if the corresponding female plug is wired to match the male (kinda obvious but it had to be said. NEMA plugs are color coded, and if you use a brass colored terminal to land a neutral, which should normally only be on a silver terminal for nema rating, you could get in trbl by OSHA or elec codes/fire marshalls)

as far as the taps, they look ok to me, they are isolated and insulated, i would still put NoAlox on it if your going to use aluminum and tape it up good, first with a layer of rubberized cloth backed splice tape, then with a layer of vinyl electrical tape (jap wrap/black tape)the idea here is to keep water from ever getting into that tap, as it will speed up the oxidation process... personally I only use Polaris Taps, they are expensive as hell but they also are worth every penny if you have ever put one in you would see why the ones your link directed me to seems to be a generic equivilant of a polaris tap, so i will say they look ok over the internet, lol.

Swale84 said:

I hate to make you click a link, but I found some cheap flood lights, but can't tell by looking at them if I can take them apart and remote ballast them for my grow. Here is the link of the light I found

http://www.e-conolight.com/Product/EProductDetail.asp?ProductFamilyID=3&FGNumber=E-HC1H151Z

If the link doesn't work, maybe you could copy/paste directly into your browser. All I want to know if I can remote ballast this particular flood light.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

you can remote ballast just about any light fixture made... its all about connecting the socket to the remote ballast..2 wires, not too difficult

hey stoned is there a way to turn 2- 20amp, 110 breakers into a 15A 110 and a 30A 220? what i want is to run my 2-1000s off the 30A, 220 and have the 15A 110 for all the fans and pumps. Can you help me out.I'm a carpenter w/ a little electic exper. Thanks

Silky Shagsalot said:

love the avatar, just stole it! so, is there anything i can do to prolong the life of a relay? i just got a flip/flop and was told they are easy to swap out and there is some little "trick" that will add life to a rely. any truth to that? thanks!!!

Click to expand...

the little trick your referring to involves installing an arc supressor on the relay....

maybe a 25A 220 would even work better

mrduke said:

hey stoned is there a way to turn 2- 20amp, 110 breakers into a 15A 110 and a 30A 220? what i want is to run my 2-1000s off the 30A, 220 and have the 15A 110 for all the fans and pumps. Can you help me out.I'm a carpenter w/ a little electic exper. Thanks

Click to expand...

leave the one 20 amp breaker in there and use it instead of changing it to a 15... trust me on that one.
the other circuit is a little bit more tricky however.
IF the existing wire is #12 copper or larger, than all it involves is installing a 2 pole 30 amp breaker in place of the single pole 20 amp breaker, providing you have the available slots in your panel, then making the white (neutral wire) of that circuit the other hot leg of the 220v circuit. however you really have to be careful when doing that, as it is a common practice in older homes for circuits to 'share' a neutral, so if you make that white wire hot, you have to be damn sure that there is nothing else connected to it but the 220v equipment you want connected to it, lest you have fireworks inside your house, and thats never a good time.

thanks stoned, my breakers are i beleave philips brand there the skinny one like mabe 3/8" so theres 2 breakers in each slot of the box. Can i still use a 2pole 30A just in a different hole?
how much money / power is saved running 220 over 110? is it worth the work

you dont save any money.
what you gain is amperage, so you can run more lights on the same wiring than if you were running 110.
for example-
2200w @ 110v = 20 amps. that will trip a 20 amp breaker... sux huh... but wait...
2200w @ 220v = 10 amps. so by increasing the voltage, you reduce the amperage. the wiring in your house is rated using amperage.
the power company bills you for wattage...
as far as using another 2 pole breaker in a different spot, yes, you can do this.
the phillips breakers that have 2 breakers in one slot you are referring to are called tandem breakers. im pretty sure you can find a 2 pole 30amp breaker of the same type, tho you might actually have to go to an electrical supply house to get one, if home depot or lowes doesnt carry it.

ps- a good thing to do when buying breakers is to take one out of the panel your buying the breaker for, and take it with you so you can do a side by side comparison to be sure that the breaker they try to sell you will fit/match your panel...lol trust me on that one. nothing pisses me off more than buying a breaker, driving back, installing it, then having to take it all back apart and return the breaker because the panel cover wont fit over the new breaker

word thanks man

IAm5toned said:

i ...

some taps on older sections of the power grid or in remote areas, or areas far from a high voltage transmission station (most of the lines you can see are actually medium voltage true high voltage transmission requires catenary towers, as the voltage is in excess of 50kv and needs alot of clear distance to avoid incidental voltage loss and bleed off) can exist for a variety of reasons, one, is that the tap was in place before modern the SCATA system/ grid monitoring was put in place. i mentioned bleed off a second ago, let me elaborate a little bit on it- 'bleed off' is a form of inductance. inductance, in a nutshell, is the transfer of voltage/EMF from one object to another, with no physical contact, via a magnetic field. when you wear rubber soled shoes and drag your feet across a carpet, you are inducting a negative charge upon yourself, because that charge is produced in the rubber soles of your shoes, from dragging them across the nylon in the carpet. that negative charge is known as static electricity, becuase it is voltage that builds without current flow, it doesnt move, its static. that static charge has a magnetic field around it, and that magnetic field inducts electrical energy through you, seeking a path to ground to release the static charge... like when you reach for the doorknob so that is inductance.... keep it in mind.
because it happens to the power lines. it happens alot, in fact its a major problem with modern power grid systems... some estimates say that as much as 60% of all generated electrical energy is lost in transmission either from voltage drop, or bleed off due to inductance. In some areas (i have personally done this myself in clarksville, tn) the bleed off is so bad under transmission towers you can literally hold a t8 floro lamp in your hand and it will light up from all the bleed off from the overhead lines.
power company engineers have to compensate for this bleed off in there usage algorithims... and in remote areas and areas far from substations, this bleed off is very high.... so, in theory, if you were out in the sticks, or have had your tap in place for ages, then there is a chance that the usage could get lost in the shuffle, and be accounted for as bleed off, or voltage drop on older systems still used by the power companies. but its a very risky gamble to take. i wouldnt recomend it to anyone.
...

Click to expand...

WOW, you rock. This not only makes sense but explains the "urban myth" that you can light light bulbs if you live near power lines! as well as you can feel the static... I never understood why the myth even existed.

It also explains why I'm so happy to see the article on magnetic induction in popular mechanics this month - soon I won't have to have ANY wires anywhere. Countertops and office desks will have a magnetic induction pad on them. With that I will simply place my laptop or toaster on it (without plugging anything in) and the electricity will be transferred.

thank you for the explanation.

they already make induction devices! theres a cordless device charger (cell phone, mp3, ipod type stuff) that is a mat you just toss your phone or whatever on and it charges 'magically' lol... i also have a toothbrush that is induction charged, no contacts on the charger, its all plastic, the brush just sits on it, it even works underwater (i had to try )

^ Right on, I just didn't know the higher wattage was controllable like it is in the toothbrush example. I also didn't understand that the same principle is what has led to confusion over "smart meters" and the true reason why some taps are so hard to find by the sweep teams.

Cheers!

Very stupid basic question....


I moved to a basement with fuses that operate them at 60 breakers. There were 2 breakers with 60 labeled on each of them that operated as one( they moved together). I am curious if that means they have 120 amperage downstairs or just 60. Either way, can anyone justify why such a small basement(perfect for growing) would have such a high breaker is they werent growing pot? Thanks

awsome thread you got going here my quetion is i found a site that sells medium based hps/mh lights. medium base is the usuall socket found in house hold lamp right? if so am i correct that these medium based light wont need a ballast??

weeds247 said:

Very stupid basic question....


I moved to a basement with fuses that operate them at 60 breakers. There were 2 breakers with 60 labeled on each of them that operated as one( they moved together). I am curious if that means they have 120 amperage downstairs or just 60. Either way, can anyone justify why such a small basement(perfect for growing) would have such a high breaker is they werent growing pot? Thanks

Click to expand...

a 60 amp double pole breaker could be used for anything, a large water heater, a boiler/heat/ac unit, welder, etc, etc. lots of people put wierd shit in there basement.

i highly doubt it was used for grow lights, unless the wire was used to feed a subpanel... the breaker is to big for 'branch circuit devices' (things you normally plug in)

what you have there is a single 60 amp, 240v circuit. depending on if there was a wire for a neutral, it could be easily converted to 120v though, with a little cash and some elbow grease....
if your missing the wire for a neutral... get 240v equipement... in most cases it'll be cheaper and easier than trying to add that one wire to get a 120v neutral to the basement.