3 days on jack's 5-12-26 and the plants are loving it! Bye bye General Hydroponics forever

In my region, GH also delisted the ingredients off of the labels. They still show the minimum analysis, but not what constitutes the mix. Better alternatives to GH anyhow, even if you want basically the exact same formula. For example, Green Planet 3 part. Also cheaper.

Since my usual GH routine was shaken up with the change in formulation, I got back to busting out the measuring instruments and such and am back to mixing my own nutrients again. I'm of the mindset that you're using more than 5 products, might as well make your own nutrients.

I mix and match with other products I impulse buy at the hydro store. It works out pretty well!

I use Jacks. Have used GH also.

Recipe close to Jacks 321 elementals, using primarily GH trio.

.Smoke said:

I hope it works out for you.
I for one am done with Jack's.
Just a few days into flower and....
View attachment 5014089
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I made no changes to the feed so I'm stumped. Issues with mobile nutrients, but they're so different between the plants its hard to nail down the cause.
The tops look great still, but I don't want to push the issues any further.
View attachment 5014094
I've been doing some research and have found others say they've had the same issues with Jack's. They love it, but can never seem to get dialed in on it.

For now I'm going back to the GH trio following their new schedule @ 1.2ec with another .2ec of Calimagic. I'm going to try floating around there for now @ 1.4 total and see how things progress. Possibly bump up to 1.7 if I see issues.

I am really frustrated though that Jack's isn't working out....
When it is working it makes some pretty plants.

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I’m on my first ok run with jacks, I had a lot of problems too, anything above 1.4EC on jacks 321 and it started to burn my plants. I dropped it to 1.2EC jacks. I’m using tap water, it’s 0.1EC, I add 0.1EC calimagic/batch, 0.5ml of gs plant foods kelp extract/gal, and 1ml protekt/gal. I’ve got some chitosan as well, I haven’t been able to experiment with that on its own yet.

I think out of everything that kelp made the biggest difference since the stuff in it accelerates uptake.

jonnynobody said:

I just wanted to drop in to say I definitely rushed to judgment on the jack's. I needed to increase my ppm. For my situation 1.8-1.85 ec is the sweet spot. Less causes deficiencies in even modest sized plants. One of my plants was only about 3 1/2' tall. Quite bushy though and she developed beginning signs of a calcium deficiency as did several other plants due to my under feeding. I read on a jack's enthusiast thread over at icmag and got some bad info and ran with it. Many people claimed you could run 600ppm start to finish. I tried it. Ruined my last flower cycle doing it. I didn't realize the damage I was causing by unintentionally starving them until it was too late. I corrected it in week 3 of flower, but they had already been stunted and suffered some heavy foliage damage, so it definitely diminished yield. If I had just left my ec where I had been running it I wouldn't have had any issues. All plants get the same strength from clone through flower. No issues.

I'll snap some more pics later and report back. I'm a little disappointed with myself for rushing to judgment considering all the success I've had running 321 over the last few flower cycles. I hope my operator error doesn't inhibit anyone from trying jack's.

Also, I'd suggest omitting the epsom salt until flower. Jack's is loaded with mag. I noticed tip burn on vegging plants until I stopped adding the epsom to my res. As soon as I hit flower I add the epsom.

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I’ve noticed that the concentrations for jacks that people report are very different, I wonder how much of that is method, and how much of it is related to equipment calibration. Everyone’s system is different, it would be so nice if we had access to like an investigative metrology database so we could get a baseline for different manufacturers equipment and probe batches. Then it would be trivial to normalize successful recipes for your equipment and method to a known reference. It’s something I’ve been fantasizing about because it would make those periods of uncertainty shorter, because the guess you make about nutrient concentration should be closer to what it really needs to be with that extra information available.

It's looking like an adjustment in Ph was all I was needing to correct the Mg issue.
No new spots or discoloration.



This is about the worst of the tip burn I'm seeing now.

Ec is @ 1.6 right now and I'm planning to hang around there unless I see new issues arise. I'm starting to transition to the mindset that a higher EC during veg and backing off after the stretch in flower is the way to go. There are quite a few times I've run across this line of thinking and it makes some sense to me. During veg you're growing the whole plant= Lots of nutrients needed. Flower you're just making buds= less nutrients required.

I'm probably wrong, but I'm still going to give it a go and see how it shakes out.

Anyway,
Happy to say I'm back on the Jack's gravy train and am 100% completely satisfied again @ 1.6ec/6.2Ph 9 days into 12/12.

dstroy said:

I’ve noticed that the concentrations for jacks that people report are very different, I wonder how much of that is method, and how much of it is related to equipment calibration.

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been wondering this myself. im thinking its mainly a dli thing, but that aero system (which is slick as fuck btw, props) probably has a lot to do with it too in your case. in f+d and rdwc, with 40w/sq ft of led and 45w/sq ft of de respectively, my girls are happy up to 2.6 ec and they complain if it gets below 2 after theyve got a week or two of veg on them. ive seen large scale dtw guys talking about 3+ ec which sounds nuts to me, but theyd be out of business if it didnt work. obviously those guys are running a ton of light. then i see lower light setups feeding low ec and their girls look happy as can be
to a lesser extent, it could also be the recipes people are running and the ratios being slightly out of whack. 3/2/1, 3.6/2.4/1.2 is not how the manufacturer intended it to be mixed. jacks says to run it 3.78/2.52/.98. i know its not that different but i run it as recommended (with a little extra CaNO3) and i have no issues with tox/def/lockout unless i under or overfeed

geez, we went from love to hate to re-love for both of you guys in a manner of days. lmao.

rkymtnman said:

geez, we went from love to hate to re-love for both of you guys in a manner of days. lmao.

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JR Peters had a PMS week...

rkymtnman said:

geez, we went from love to hate to re-love for both of you guys in a manner of days. lmao.

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My problem was entirely operator error. I've been battling 2 problems neither of which had anything to do with the effectiveness of jack's. I've been battling spider mites which by itself isn't a big deal to address. I started using a wetting agent with my last several applications of different pesticides and that's when the train went off the tracks. Coco wet burned the hell out of my leaves so I returned it and tried an organic wetting agent that uses yucca. Same effect. Leaves took forever to dry and the plants just looked droopy and unhappy for 2 days after a spray. On one occasion using citric acid at a rate I had no problem with previously fried the shit out of the fresh foliage on all of my plants by adding a wetting agent. I was getting fucked up pissed off trying to figure out why this was happening even though I'm using products I've used regularly in the past with no issue. The common denominator for me has been the addition of the wetting agents. Today I eliminated the wetting agent and sprayed my usual pest killer. The flower room plants were dry in an hour. All leaves reaching for the light looking happy as they can be. I will never use a wetting agent again. The bruce banger I have is the most sensitive plant I've ever grown. She's a real pain in the dick. She took the most damage from those wetting agents. She's a sad sight to see currently. I'm giving the room another 4 weeks to straighten out preparing for flower. It's been a rough ride but the train is back on the tracks.

Now for the nutritive issue. I omitted epsom salt from the 321 recipe and that caused my mg deficiency. Between the spider mites, wetting agent damage, wind burn from the fogger, and eliminating the epsom salt I don't think I could have committed any more operator error. In short my garden problems have nothing to do with jack's. All operator error.

Since all of that was very depressing to reminisce there is a silver lining. I've finally got everything sorted out and all the mistakes I made will never be repeated again. I would recommend nobody purchase a ULV fogger. They're basically leaf blowers that emit mist. I returned it and on the recommendation of another user (wish I could remember the name to thank him/her) I purchased an electric wagner paint sprayer for $125 and it works amazingly well. I'll be mixing the jack's properly moving forward with the epsom salt. I'm not sure if it's my transition to all LED that's necessitating this or not, but the plants clearly need it so I will use it. Wetting agents will never be used in my garden again. With good application, whether it's a spray bottle, pump sprayer, or paint sprayer a wetting agent is not needed. I'd advise others to learn from my pain. I know I have.

glad to hear you got it all sorted out.

i had mites once: that sucked. that was the last clone i've ever bought from a dispensary. they were kinda cool to look at under a USB scope though: very mean looking little m'fers. lol

I bought a clone from a clone place once and it had a super strain of powdery mildew that was immune to all of the normal methods of getting rid of it. Like you, I never bought one again.

For shits and grins I mixed up a res of maxi with calmag 2 days ago and tested it on a few plants vs jack's. The reservoir is already contaminated and has to be dumped. Jack's res? 6 days held so far without issue. Within 5' of the maxi reservoir I could smell the aroma of sewage. I got my sniffer closer and confirmed that as the source of the smell. I looked at the res and these nasty large swampy bubbles full of god knows what take 30 seconds or so to pop. It's absolutely disgusting. With that I can't tell a difference between the jack's fed plants and the maxi fed plants. What I can tell a difference in is how stable my reservoir is. In over a year of running jack's I have never had to dump a res due to contamination or bacteria growth. 2 days with GH maxi in a res and I remember why I stopped using that trash. Endless reservoir dumps due to contamination. Experiment over. It isn't that maxi doesn't grow great plants, but it seems absolutely impossible to maintain a sterile res even with h202 added. And it's very expensive. I was looking back today at my pictures of the last 3 grows I ran with jack's start to finish. Nothing but beautiful lush growth and stable reservoirs I've held up to 10 days without issue.

+1 for jack's. GH is going in the trash. I have no interest in ever repeating this process of dumping a full reservoir again. It's too costly and time consuming. No offense to anyone using it with success. There's nothing wrong with the maxi base formula until calmag is added. Before I switched to jack's I found out the res didn't go rancid if I didn't add the calmag. Because I'm on RO water I have to add it though. I ended up always adding it on the day of watering only to the water I was using that day. With that I could hold a res longer, but slime always developed on the air stone lines and edges of the res no more than 7 days after mixing even without calmag. Anyhow I thought I'd pop in share the experience.

I've been running 321 in mid veg and noticed a bit of a clawing. I'll be using Blumats once I move them into my flowering room, so I'll have to drop the EC down a little anyway. What I'm thinking is I'll be about to run it at about 75% strength all the way through. If so that will make life easy. I can just steal buckets from my flower res to feed my vegging plants.

lusidghost said:

I've been running 321 in mid veg and noticed a bit of a clawing. I'll be using Blumats once I move them into my flowering room, so I'll have to drop the EC down a little anyway. What I'm thinking is I'll be about to run it at about 75% strength all the way through. If so that will make life easy. I can just steal buckets from my flower res to feed my vegging plants.

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I use the recommended ratios of each ingredient then I dilute it down to 1.6-1.8 ec with ro water. It seems like 1.6 is the sweet spot for me.
What ec are you running?

jonnynobody said:

I use the recommended ratios of each ingredient then I dilute it down to 1.6-1.8 ec with ro water. It seems like 1.6 is the sweet spot for me.
What ec are you running?

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I can't really do that currently because I have a floater valve controlling my res refills. I've always used RO, but I'm about to start using tap water because I feel it's adding complications. My tap EC is low and I'm basically just robbing calcium.

I forget what the EC is off of the top of my head, but whatever the 321 ratio is. During my last grow, which was my first Jack's attempt, my plants started showing wicked deficiencies in late veg from running too low of an EC. I started giving them full strength and the bounced back. Then I added the Blumats later and that complicated everything. Too much water, too high of an EC. Very small pots making it even harder.

I would say 1.2 to 1.6 would be about perfect for my setup.

lusidghost said:

I can't really do that currently because I have a floater valve controlling my res refills. I've always used RO, but I'm about to start using tap water because I feel it's adding complications. My tap EC is low and I'm basically just robbing calcium.

I forget what the EC is off of the top of my head, but whatever the 321 ratio is. During my last grow, which was my first Jack's attempt, my plants started showing wicked deficiencies in late veg from running too low of an EC. I started giving them full strength and the bounced back. Then I added the Blumats later and that complicated everything. Too much water, too high of an EC. Very small pots making it even harder.

I would say 1.2 to 1.6 would be about perfect for my setup.

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Yup, keep it simple.. i have only ever used tap (mine is about 115ppm/7ph) and no issues.. why make things harder

lusidghost said:

I can't really do that currently because I have a floater valve controlling my res refills. I've always used RO, but I'm about to start using tap water because I feel it's adding complications. My tap EC is low and I'm basically just robbing calcium.

I forget what the EC is off of the top of my head, but whatever the 321 ratio is. During my last grow, which was my first Jack's attempt, my plants started showing wicked deficiencies in late veg from running too low of an EC. I started giving them full strength and the bounced back. Then I added the Blumats later and that complicated everything. Too much water, too high of an EC. Very small pots making it even harder.

I would say 1.2 to 1.6 would be about perfect for my setup.

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I'm glad to hear you found your sweet spot.
Why is RO more complicated? Have you ever considered putting a simple shut off valve on the line that feeds your float valve? I think I spent $5 on a pack of 10. As soon as the res fills I mix my nutes and turn off the valve. Nothing too complicated.

I can see why you were having deficiencies. 1.2 ec is far too low. If you're running the jack's recipe as per their instructions you're probably hitting 1100-1200 ppm. That is quite high and can fry plants quickly. As long as you feel good about the changes you make in your garden is all that matters. Keep up the good work.

jonnynobody said:

I'm glad to hear you found your sweet spot.
Why is RO more complicated? Have you ever considered putting a simple shut off valve on the line that feeds your float valve? I think I spent $5 on a pack of 10. As soon as the res fills I mix my nutes and turn off the valve. Nothing too complicated.

I can see why you were having deficiencies. 1.2 ec is far too low. If you're running the jack's recipe as per their instructions you're probably hitting 1100-1200 ppm. That is quite high and can fry plants quickly. As long as you feel good about the changes you make in your garden is all that matters. Keep up the good work.

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Nah, 321 is around 850 ppm. Somewhere in there. Blumats don’t give runoff, so you have to lower the EC.

My RO filter has a shutoff value. I use a floater valve and do the same thing with filling and mixing. I’m going to downsize my res because I’m using way less water and I imagine it will stay cooler since it isn’t sitting around for as long.

I’ve had cal/mag deficiencies if I don’t up the calcium, so pulling it out of the water and adding it back seems counterproductive. I could buy Jack’s RO formula, but my tap is like 100ppm so why bother? Plus the filters are crazy expensive. They last a long time, but still.

I’m still trying to figure it out. So far so good this grow though. As I said a little clawing, but I can fix that. Thanks for the suggestions.

lusidghost said:

Nah, 321 is around 850 ppm. Somewhere in there. Blumats don’t give runoff, so you have to lower the EC.

My RO filter has a shutoff value. I use a floater valve and do the same thing with filling and mixing. I’m going to downsize my res because I’m using way less water and I imagine it will stay cooler since it isn’t sitting around for as long.

I’ve had cal/mag deficiencies if I don’t up the calcium, so pulling it out of the water and adding it back seems counterproductive. I could buy Jack’s RO formula, but my tap is like 100ppm so why bother? Plus the filters are crazy expensive. They last a long time, but still.

I’m still trying to figure it out. So far so good this grow though. As I said a little clawing, but I can fix that. Thanks for the suggestions.

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Nah, 321 is around 850 ppm. Somewhere in there. Blumats don’t give runoff, so you have to lower the EC.

Just to clarify 321 per the feed schedule using the 3.6/2.4/1.1 ratios (recently modified by peters to 3.7/2.5/1.1) is 1200 ppm in both veg and flower finishing at 1050ppm with their finish formula. You may want to check your tds meter. I've had a bad meter shaft me more than once in the past. Couldn't figure out why my plants weren't growing right. Checked my tds meter against another and it was dam near 200ppm off.

https://5efb2711-22d2-46e2-827b-2f81215c4be7.filesusr.com/ugd/3230c0_02e1e8ba47584a24b0e1f24100abb20b.pdf

My RO filter has a shutoff value. I use a floater valve and do the same thing with filling and mixing. I’m going to downsize my res because I’m using way less water and I imagine it will stay cooler since it isn’t sitting around for as long.

I’ve had cal/mag deficiencies if I don’t up the calcium, so pulling it out of the water and adding it back seems counterproductive. I could buy Jack’s RO formula, but my tap is like 100ppm so why bother? Plus the filters are crazy expensive. They last a long time, but still.

As always do what is best for your situation and garden. If you're at work someday looking to kill time you may want to read further on the benefits of using RO water for your plants. It's about feeding the correct ratios of elements which RO allows you to do. Calcium nitrate or even calmag is very inexpensive and a small cost to pay for knowing your plants are getting the right nutrition. Tap water throws an unknown variable into the mix that's different depending on which part of the country / world you live in and can adversely affect your plants. Also, many municipalities are now using chloramine instead of chlorine. Chlorine can be evaporated in 24 hours in a bubbling res. Chloramine cannot. As I mentioned there are unknown variables in tap water. Different municipalities will have different calcium and magnesium ratios in the water. RO is a clean slate.

I paid $30 for 2 75 GPD filters for my unit. Maintenance is very cheap. You do not need dupont filters.

50/75/100/150/200/300/400 GPD Reverse Osmosis RO Membrane Water Filter Cartridge | eBay

User Friendly Design, Easy installation. It is suitable for most Reverse Osmosis Water Filtration System. pH Range of Feed water during Operation. Feed water SDI15. Residual Chlorine Concentration of Feed water.

www.ebay.com

I’m still trying to figure it out. So far so good this grow though. As I said a little clawing, but I can fix that. Thanks for the suggestions.

You'll learn a little more every cycle. Keep jammin dude.