1000w Coco Multi-strain Medicinal Grow

Snow Crash said:

Romulan varieties are in my future so that's definitely the plant I'll be following most closely.

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I'm looking forward to it myself, I've never smoked any but I keep hearing great things. It branches horizontally so I wouldn't recommend topping it. I really enjoy the darkness of the leaves as they mature. The new growth itself looks like flowers in the backdrop of the darker leaves.

Okay, had a chance to buzz through the thread and I have an idea what has gone on thus far. I skimmed it but I think I've got the jist.

If I could grill you for a moment...
Can you provide the ml per gallon you are using for each nutrient? I'm interested in CNS17 and wanted to know what of the botanicare line you are running (aside from the main stuff) and exactly how much. A range is good, or you can be more specific saying something like "Today I fed with Xml of "A" and Yml of "B" and Zml of "C."

How often are you feeding? Have you incorporated lower level waterings? How much run off do you aim for? How are you managing your run off? What is your water source?

What kind of pH meter do you have? Can you monitor your ppm's or EC?

Thanks!

Ok, not going to get these questions in order, but I'll do my best to answer you.

I'm using the CNS17 coco nutes. CNS17 grow, bloom, and ripe as my base nutrients. For rooted clones and seedlings I'm using 7ml per gallon of the grow and I work my way up to about 15ml toward the end of the veg. I'm not using many additives atm, this is my first grow and I ran out of budget, plus, I wanted to see if it will be dank without the high price stuff. At the moment the plants are pretty large so I'm using a little less than the recommended dose of the bloom nute, 20ml per gallon of bloom (says to use 25ml on the back of the bottle). At week 6 I'm switching over to the ripe at 25ml per gallon and tapering off until the last week where I will just leach with water.

As far as additives I'm using a pinch of epsom salts for magnesium (I've read that coco can get mag problems) during the first 2 waterings in veg and the first 2 waterings in flower. I use superthrive at 1ml per gallon during transplants and again the same way I used the epsom salts, first 2 waterings in each cycle. I've been fortunate enough to get some free samples of great white shark (mycorhizae & tricoderma inoculation), and extreme gardening's line-up of beneficial bacteria and fungus. I use these inoculates when I first plant rooted clones in the coco and again at the beginning of flowering. Extreme gardening also sent with the free sample a product called cal-carb. It's a calcium carbonate foliar spray that breaks down into CO2 at the leaf level and is supposed to bring the ambient level of CO2 from 0.3% (normal) to 1.0%.

Onto feeding, I water when the buckets start to get light to the feel. With the 12/12 cycle now the pots are drying out a little slower than when I was running 24 hours. At this point I'm feeding every 3 days roughly. I try to feed every watering until I start to see signs of salt buildups or the plants start to sizzle at the leaf tips. At that point I go straight 6.0 PH'd water to about 10% runoff. Sort of a mini flush. Other than that I water till the pots slightly dribble from the bottoms. I'm in 2 gallon pots and it takes about 75-80 fluid ounces of water to get a slight runoff. I try to water all of my plants at once to make it easier on myself, but if I do notice one plant drinking faster than the others I give that plant about 3 cups of water to hold it off till I water them all, so I guess that would be lower level waterings.

I'm using tap water and it comes out of the faucet at 8.1-8.2 pH. I'm pretty sure the PPM's are pretty high out of the tap and I don't have an EC meter to check. I also don't have a pH meter at the moment either. I borrowed a friends at the beginning of my grow and pH'd the water of 5 separate 1 gallon containers to 6.0. It took 5ml per gallon of pH down to get down to that level. I then added nutes and rechecked the pH and it was still at a steady 6.0. I haven't seen any pH issues since.

Breaking it down, when starting with a fresh batch of coco, I use a pinch of epsom salts, 1 ml per gallon of superthrive, and beneficials on top of the normal base nutrient.

A friend of mine recently picked up some Hydroplex from Botanicare and gave me enough of it to run through this flowering phase. The dosing on it is pretty low (2 1/2-5ml per gallon) and is supposed to be used at week 4 till the end (on an 8 week strain of course). I'm guessing it's some sort of flower hardener. I plan on picking up some unsulphered molasses for a carbohydrate load in the soil and plan to use it at about 4 weeks into flower and on. A lot of companies sell products that do the same thing; Botanicare's Sweet, AN's Bud Candy, and they all do the same thing, provide carbohydrates to the soil. Although the big name companies also add micro nutrients to the mix as well.

In future runs I want to get some sort of potassium silicate product (Aquashield/Silica Blast), they make cell walls stronger and are supposed to help the plant cope with environmental stresses such as heat and under-watering. I want to get some enzyme product as well to break down the old roots and change them into carbohydrates. Also, if I get an RO system I'll be getting a cal-mag supplement.

t0rn said:

In future runs I want to get some sort of potassium silicate product (Aquashield/Silica Blast), they make cell walls stronger and are supposed to help the plant cope with environmental stresses such as heat and under-watering. Also, if I get an RO system I'll be getting a cal-mag supplement.

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Cool. Awesome with all the hook ups. I hear the Great White is... well... great...

I've been using DynaGro Pro-Tekt as a Potassium Silicate supplement. I think Silica Blast is Sodium Silicate (sodium metasilicate) which I'm pretty sure I avoided because of Na build up being an issue in Coco. As Potassium Silicate supplements go, the Pro-Tekt is the best bang-for-the-buck I found. AN Rhino Skin is another option but much more expensive.

I'm really digging the stuff. Definitely a noticeable difference in the strength of the leaves and the thickness of the stems. I think you'll like it. 3ml per gallon is about all you will need.

I'd also suggest a rooting supplement to assist your root zone health. Something like Rhizotonic, Humboldt Roots, G-Rex... That'd all be good stuff. Whatever you pick is going to be a bit expensive, but when you break it down by plant, and then by gram... The benefits of having a healthy, well developed, root zone cannot be undervalued at pennies on the gram. Try to think of it that way. A $60 bottle of something might seem like a lot, but if you use it on 12 plants and increase your final harvest by just 10% the bottle has paid for itself. I love Rhizotonic!

The Magnesium deficiency usually arrives when the Potassium buffer is over filled, as these elements will compete for uptake. Coco provides Potassium and retains the salt, and once the media is enriched running high levels of K can have a very detrimental effect on the plant. Same thing for Calcium, which also competes. Keep your eye on the Potassium and make sure you don't run too much bloom stuff, especially early in flowering. Keep those N levels in a proper ratio and the PK lower until you're 5 weeks or so into flowering. That should help keep Mg deficiency as a result of nutrient toxicity to a minimum.

I think it's a good idea to start incorporating 10% to 20% strength feedings when you need to water daily, or even every other day. Do a full, then a 10%, then a full, then a 10%. Feeding at full on a bi-daily basis can result in build up quickly once the media has been charged with elements. This can be especially problematic during the 3rd and 4th weeks of flowering. I'm sure you'll be alright though.

I'm blessed with awesome tap water. Well water. The pH at 7.3 and the ppms <60. You on the other hand might have some hard water, given the high pH I'd guess a lot of Calcium bicarbonate. If you know that the K+ level isn't too high and you start running into Magnesium problems it'd probably be good to switch over to RO filtered water (especially for later in flowering) to keep the total amount of Calcium in the system appropriately within range.

Thanks for the heads up on the silicate products. I'll have to look Pro-Tekt, I'm all about the bang for the buck and I'll be avoiding AN's products as much as possible. I don;t buy into hype, not my thing and I can't justify their prices.

t0rn said:

Thanks for the heads up on the silicate products. I'll have to look Pro-Tekt, I'm all about the bang for the buck and I'll be avoiding AN's products as much as possible. I don;t buy into hype, not my thing and I can't justify their prices.

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Enh. AN isn't that bad. They do get a bad rap for their Advertising... But I mean, think of another product in your life you do that with. Like picking RC Cola over Coca-Cola just because Coke advertises they are the "best."

Every system is different, and each has pros and cons. Running the entire AN system can be expensive up front, especially the VooDoo Juice and other biologicals. A lot of their stuff is really concentrated too. Rather than running 20ml of your CNS17, you'd run more like 4-5ml of their Sensi A and 4-5ml of Sensi B. You're paying quite a bit for something that is mostly just water when AN has higher concentrations. At the end of the grow, AN doesn't run that much more expensive per plant than other nutrient systems because you can use so little of it per gallon.

I'm no AN proponent. I just think that if there was a decided "best" nutrient company we'd all know about it. Lots of different people use a lot of different stuff. Every grower has their own processes so I think the variety keeps things fresh. I can't rule them out until I try them out. Honestly, the Sensi A+B did give me results despite my over use of the product.

Botanicare, Advanced Nutrients, Canna, Roots Organic, General Hydroponics, Fox Farms, Earth Juice, and Humboldt Nutrients are the companies have had experience with. I consider Dutch Master to probably have the most ideal Hydroponic system of them all, and I've yet to give them a shot... Some day... Canna is my current favorite because they produce a lot of science. Instead of an Ad in a magazine they publish papers which provide insight into how plants grow and why they design their system the way they do.

Earth Juice, Humboldt Nutrients, and Fox Farms did not impress me.

Snow Crash said:

Enh. AN isn't that bad. They do get a bad rap for their Advertising... But I mean, think of another product in your life you do that with. Like picking RC Cola over Coca-Cola just because Coke advertises they are the "best."

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It's funny you say that because RC happens to be my favorite cola.

Even with the lowered application rates AN is by far the most expensive product out there. Give me a sec and I'll post some videos where someone broke down a lot of the nutrient lines and the price per application.

heh..I'm a fan of RC too but would rather drink coke. However I do see your point torn. Snow if I may at some point I would like to email RE: a few questions on Roots...I"m running the entire line (except for the oregonism forgot to buy it last transplant). I just have some general dosing questions but I"m running a unique schedule right now...so I don't want to take over torns thread. Let me know and I'll email you the details or you can check my journal for any info you might want to have/need.

AN's products broken down: [youtube]9fm0Gh26dNM[/youtube]

Silicate products:

AN's B-52: [youtube]kkEw04Kvct0[/youtube]

Kushie Kush: [youtube]wXbAU840a6o[/youtube]

Budfactor-X: [youtube]80Wjm1j5qfw[/youtube]

Rhino-Skin: [youtube]yAb4HKO4t08[/youtube]

Voodoo Juice: [youtube]3RG5T3avlsg[/youtube]

Take a look at these videos, he is biased, but only based off the fact that AN is a whore.

420Marine said:

I"m running the entire line (except for the oregonism forgot to buy it last transplant).

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Received 2, 2oz samples of Oregonizm recently and used it on 2 of 3 Hog clones to see the difference. Each time I pick up a new product I've been test a with and without sample base on the same strains to see if I see an actual change.

out of curiosity have you noticed a difference as of yet? Just wondering if it's worth it to buy it for the next go round.

I was actually pretty drunk/stoned when I transplanted so I didn't really look at the roots scientifically. They all however looked pretty nice and I wouldn't say any one or the other was remarkable compared to the rest. The 3 clones are all moving in height at the same rate so no noticeable difference there.

heh..well we all get like that sometimes..interesting that you haven't noticed a difference as of yet.

Well, 2 of the 3 clones had some pretty bad transplant shock so I'll be using the other 2oz sample on the next set of clones and see if I see a difference.

that's right I remember you had an issue with some of them...but if memory serves me right they bounced/are bouncing back yes?

That's funny about the RC cola. I had this feeling that no matter what I picked... Safeway Select, Tab, Pepsi... You'd be saying that. I think you get my meaning though, you pick your favorite because of how it tastes, not because one company has an advertising budget and another doesn't.

I still need to watch that break down. I'll edit this if it changes my mind.

I used their calculator to determine how much it would cost over the long haul.
I had it broken down in a word document but wound up deleting the info when I decided to stick with canna.

As I remember it I figured that some products would last around 8x longer than the heavy use stuff.
Tarantula, Final Phase, Overdrive, and VooDoo Juice would be required to be 1/8th of the volume of Connoisseur A+B or Sensi A+B. The other supplements, like Big Bud, Nirvana, Bud Candy, SensiZym, RhinoSkin, Bud Factor X, and B-52, are 1/2 the volumes of the macro nutrients.

So you have an expensive group you'd need to buy 1L of each, a moderately priced group you'd need about 1 gallon of each (4L), and an inexpensive group you'd need around 8L of.

Then these nutrients, used at maybe 70% of AN suggested levels (because they suggest too hot, they'll even admit it) , will wind up feeding close to 100 plants from start to finish. Break that down and it winds up being around $18 per plant (as memory serves it was about $1800 for all that crap). And if each plant pulls 3 ounces that's like $6 an ounce on their system.

There are a lot of ways to manipulate the numbers too. You don't really need the Bud Factor X, the Bud Candy, or the RhinoSkin, (fuck... you don't need most of that shit, Atami Bloombastic is an all-in-one anyway) because you can get the same stuff for less from someone else.

At the end of the day I'm pretty sure Botanicare still comes in as the most economic system (maybe DynaGro), I am by no means preaching AN (don't really use them myself), and organic is cheap as shit... because it's mostly poo... lol... but anyway, despite AN being an expensive system it really isn't that bad on a per plant basis in my mind.

Yea, you can see 2/3 of the Hog clones in the picture on page 24, you can see where the damage was and all the nice green shit coming out now.

The breakdowns aren't as big as that. You don't use AN at 2ml per gallon, it's 2ml per liter (8ml per gallon). If you're using A + B it's 16ml of each per gallon. I'm currently using Botanicare's CNS17 Bloom at 20ml per gallon, 4ml dif.

I take that back, just looked up Sensi Bloom A and B, you use 4mL per liter (as recommended on the bottle) of each A and B coming out to a whopping 32mL per gallon. At about 20 bucks per liter each you come to $40 dollars. Compare that to Botanicare's Bloom at $10 per liter.

You use near twice the amount of nutes at 4 times the price making it near 8x more expensive.. I simply cannot justify their prices.

t0rn said:

The breakdowns aren't as big as that. You don't use AN at 2ml per gallon, it's 2ml per liter (8ml per gallon). If you're using A + B it's 16ml of each per gallon. I'm currently using Botanicare's CNS17 Bloom at 20ml per gallon, 4ml dif.

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I've actually run Sensi A and B, and trust me, 16ml of each is entirely too much in a gallon of water.

It's just a matter of breaking it down to EC in the solution. Once you get a meter you'll see that what you're adding is a percentage of elements to the mixture. Running their stuff at full strength takes the EC/PPM level of elements far too high for 90% of strains. They are one nutrient that a person can run at 1/2 to 1/4 strength on your average to lower feeding strain. Aiming for an EC of about 1.5 winds up being much, much, less volume of nutrients than they suggest when running the whole line.

CNS17 Bloom is a 2-1-3, which is a very low concentration of nutrients. Comparatively, Sensi Bloom A+B (together at equal volume) are a 3-2.2-4.6. Thus, you'd use about 70% of the volume of Sensi A+B total than CNS17 to achieve about the same concentration of nutrition to the plant.

20ml of CNS 17 is about equivalent to 14ml of A+B (7ml of each) in the same volume of water.

At $23 for 1L of each Sensi A+B (2L total) this is fair compared to the CNS17 Bloom which you would need two $9 quarts of (plus some).

$18 for about 1900ml of CNS17 used at 20ml per feeding would last for 95 feedings. That's around 19 cents per feeding.
$23 for 2000ml of A+B used at 14ml (total of both) per feeding would last for 135+ feedings. That's around 17 cents per feeding.

I dunno, there's a lot of ways to grow man. Do what you like to do best. Don't let me drop that fly in the ointment. Just wanted to give ya something to think about. That's all.