human shitbag ariel castro hangs self

[cannabineer]

something else i don't understand is how, in a time where grown civil men still regularly challenge each other to fisticuffs over women and possessions, can we try to hold ourselves to some sort of fancy standard because we are "intellectual beings"? do slackjawed cretins not represent the same "us"? what makes emulating the guy in the argyle vest better than being like the guy with the sharpened pool cue?

I'd say the key is to remember that we are sapient animals. We are both: sapient and animals. Our "better nature" is a difficult and daily choice. If we keep that better nature honest and admit to the animals that we are, the only difference between the argyle vest and the sharpened pool cue is choice of weapon. One is suitable when writing vitriolic letters to the editor. The other is the go-to choice in a barroom. Either is the quest for the win.

Only by admitting to my capacity for monstrosity can I have meaningful compassion for the other monster.
Do not mistake compassion for approval. I would seek to punish Ariel, but there but for the grace of circumstance go I.

 

[minnesmoker]

my question then is obviously "what is the alternative?" what is it that we should be doing about these types of societal problems if the judge and jury routine is "predatory" and needlessly makes pariahs out of our fellow man? if the answer is some technology which we do not yet possess, i fail to see what is so "wrong" about our current approach. unless you are suggesting we do nothing at all, or have a viable alternative, i don't see how we should have a moral beef with the current system. even if we were to implement a fool-proof prevention tactic right now, what do we do about the people who missed the "prevention deadline" and still walk among us committing heinous acts?

If it wouldn't be too much of a bother, would you mind clearing out your PM box a bit, I'd like to not make this a same-thing, page after page discussion. It's pretty much you and I discussing, a few people also responding, and a few onlookers. We can discuss much more directly, without the necessity for public grandstanding and showboating.

 

[minnesmoker]

Also... Just asking. Are you suggesting somehow committing genocide? Seriously, from reading that and some of your (and other's) posts, from your very solid appearance of intelligence (compliment,) otherwise (ok, it was a backhanded compliment,) and from the detailed content of this conversation, I can only assume that you are suggesting a way to figure out who could have the potential, and then "eliminate the potential." By what? Killing us all? That's the only way you could honestly stop all APD/BAPD from possibly committing heinous crimes. By killing every single one of us.




And, really -- after talking about our survival instinct -- you think that WE would let that happen? Hitler only had half a dozen psychopaths backing him, look what he did. Try to start a campaign to cleanse, it won't end with "humans" on top. We represent 1 in every 20 people, a 1/5th of the world's population. THAT is how common APD is. And, every single person on the APD spectrum has the potential to commit every single heinous crime you can think of (and then some that morality just won't allow you to fully conceptualize.) If you throw in the BAPD and other Axis II spectrum disorders (which also all have some of the same potential) you are looking at almost 40% of the earth's population.


I'll admit, those like us here are much more rare, we can learn from mistakes, we can change our thought patterns, we can (to a limited degree) focus our "drive." But, Ted Bundy was one of us "evolved." Meaning we all have that potential, also... So, you think you should line us "monsters" up, and shoot us, just because we've got potential?

And, the solitary, that there is NOT torture for us APD, we our our own biggest fans. Some of us are very intelligent, and find ways to become MORE intelligent, MORE cunning, by spending lots of time alone... Like I said earlier in this thread, when I was in the joint, I'd take a couple month vacation to Solitary every year. Kept my ability to stay calm, focused, and not go stupid-stabby on the rest of the inmates.

 

[guy incognito]

There are plenty of us just reading the thread without commenting. Interesting thread so far.

I do agree with everyone that there is some line between humanity and inhumanity, and it can be a fuzzy line in a large grey area, but that does not mean all cases are ambiguous. I cannot define exactly what makes someone "human" and worthy of the same rights as a human, but I also don't see how anyone can deny it is a spectrum and ariel is clearly at the evil end. He has all the superficial characteristics of a human. He has thoughts, desires, and feelings just like the rest of us. He is a monster though and I have a hard time having any empathy for him.

 

[guy incognito]

Also... Just asking. Are you suggesting somehow committing genocide? Seriously, from reading that and some of your (and other's) posts, from your very solid appearance of intelligence (compliment,) otherwise (ok, it was a backhanded compliment,) and from the detailed content of this conversation, I can only assume that you are suggesting a way to figure out who could have the potential, and then "eliminate the potential." By what? Killing us all? That's the only way you could honestly stop all APD/BAPD from possibly committing heinous crimes. By killing every single one of us.




And, really -- after talking about our survival instinct -- you think that WE would let that happen? Hitler only had half a dozen psychopaths backing him, look what he did. Try to start a campaign to cleanse, it won't end with "humans" on top. We represent 1 in every 20 people, a 1/5th of the world's population. THAT is how common APD is. And, every single person on the APD spectrum has the potential to commit every single heinous crime you can think of (and then some that morality just won't allow you to fully conceptualize.) If you throw in the BAPD and other Axis II spectrum disorders (which also all have some of the same potential) you are looking at almost 40% of the earth's population.


I'll admit, those like us here are much more rare, we can learn from mistakes, we can change our thought patterns, we can (to a limited degree) focus our "drive." But, Ted Bundy was one of us "evolved." Meaning we all have that potential, also... So, you think you should line us "monsters" up, and shoot us, just because we've got potential?

And, the solitary, that there is NOT torture for us APD, we our our own biggest fans. Some of us are very intelligent, and find ways to become MORE intelligent, MORE cunning, by spending lots of time alone... Like I said earlier in this thread, when I was in the joint, I'd take a couple month vacation to Solitary every year. Kept my ability to stay calm, focused, and not go stupid-stabby on the rest of the inmates.

Everything I have read suggests the prevalence of psychopaths is closer to 1-2% of the population. 1 in 20 =|= 1/5

 

[curious2garden]

There are plenty of us just reading the thread without commenting. Interesting thread so far.

I do agree with everyone that there is some line between humanity and inhumanity, .......snip.........

Please do not speak for me. I do not agree that there is a line between humanity and inhumanity. My opinion has been voiced. That we are all human. If it's only by definition then all we are arguing about is who gets voted off the island next. We can not give nor take humanity away and as long as we keep believing the fiction we will not go forward.

 

[cannabineer]

There are plenty of us just reading the thread without commenting. Interesting thread so far.

I do agree with everyone that there is some line between humanity and inhumanity, and it can be a fuzzy line in a large grey area, but that does not mean all cases are ambiguous. I cannot define exactly what makes someone "human" and worthy of the same rights as a human, but I also don't see how anyone can deny it is a spectrum and ariel is clearly at the evil end. He has all the superficial characteristics of a human. He has thoughts, desires, and feelings just like the rest of us. He is a monster though and I have a hard time having any empathy for him.

I've argued that the line is biological. Human or ... other species. I have made clear that i see only harm in dividing humans into "true humans" and "others". It is a false and disastrous dichotomy.

<add> beaten to the punch

<add again> omelet, kippers and English muffin.

 

[guy incognito]

You speak as if there is no valid reason to vote someone off the island though, which I disagree with.

 

[cannabineer]

You speak as if there is no valid reason to vote someone off the island though, which I disagree with.

What I am saying is that if we reserve the right to vote someone off the island, it's for something we all are capable of doing, liable to do. I'm saying that we should never allow ourselves to think that any one of us is by his nature safe from being voted off. No self-serving division into humans and subhumans makes sense or should be tolerated.

 

[curious2garden]

You speak as if there is no valid reason to vote someone off the island though, which I disagree with.

There you go! That's the crux of the argument. The fulcrum at which you and I disagree Thank you for reading what I wrote. (I am not being sarcastic but sincerely grateful ).

 

[guy incognito]

What I am saying is that if we reserve the right to vote someone off the island, it's for something we all are capable of doing, liable to do. I'm saying that we should never allow ourselves to think that any one of us is by his nature safe from being voted off. No self-serving division into humans and subhumans makes sense or should be tolerated.

I'm not sure I understand. Ariel isn't getting voted off for doing something we are all capable of. Quite the opposite, he was voted off because he did things the average person cannot fathom and is not capable of. He isn't being voted off because of his nature, but because of his actions.

 

[minnesmoker]

Everything I have read suggests the prevalence of psychopaths is closer to 1-2% of the population. 1 in 20 =|= 1/5

Sorry, it's 1:20, or 5% ... I'm not saying high degree (aka far outliers, or "pure psychopaths") are 5%, but, that's the number of people estimated to be "on the APD spectrum." They (the true outliers, the pure psychopaths) are probably 1%-2%. At this point, we're splitting hairs about masks, though.

And, yeah, we're human, but, we're also not. That doesn't make us "sub" that makes us "other" or "more than just."

 

[guy incognito]

So the normals with the pitch and pitchforks decide if human life is sacred or not. But once you decide ONE human is less worthy then BANG all we are quibbling about is price and you will be next (eventually). Back to the prisons. There will be some so dangerous they will not be able to leave the therapeutic milieau of prison. That is why prison's should be normal contained and cared for societies. They should mirror what we hope to send 'them' back to. They should be the best areas to be. Model systems of humanity.

And this is what I was talking about with a fuzzy line. I don't think labeling someone such as ariel as an outcast will be a slippery slope that leads to me being the next one voted off the island. I don't know exactly how to define the line, but I feel ariel is clearly on one side of it.

I totally get the argument though, when I see knee jerk reactions about other questionable offenders. Like someone that molested a 12 year old. Yea it is heinous, but does that mean he is no longer a human? Or even someone that murdered someone.

Putting people like ariel and his ilk into a normal contained and cared for society so he can live a cushy life inside at the expense of me, his victims, and everyone else seems like a slap to the face. Subsidized humanity.

 

[guy incognito]

Sorry, it's 1:20, or 5% ... I'm not saying high degree (aka far outliers, or "pure psychopaths") are 5%, but, that's the number of people estimated to be "on the APD spectrum." They (the true outliers, the pure psychopaths) are probably 1%-2%. At this point, we're splitting hairs about masks, though.

And, yeah, we're human, but, we're also not. That doesn't make us "sub" that makes us "other" or "more than just."

I don't think anyone is advocating labeling someone as sub or non human based on their psychology or nature. I don't give 2 shits if ariel was a pure psychopath, or if he was so racked with guilt that he cried himself to sleep every night for the past 12 years. What I do care about is the actions he took and the effect it had on his victims and society. I feel that judgement can be made regardless of his anterior insular cortex.

 

[cannabineer]

I'm not sure I understand. Ariel isn't getting voted off for doing something we are all capable of. Quite the opposite, he was voted off because he did things the average person cannot fathom and is not capable of. He isn't being voted off because of his nature, but because of his actions.

I think this is where we have a basic difference of perception. I don't buy that this is something of which the average human is incapable. Nonetheless I do buy that the average person cannot fathom it. Behold the soothing power of denial.

I agree that it is his actions and not his nature that are the issue here. If you read many responses here, you will find a consensus among some that those actions are because of a not-quite-human nature. This is what I am vigorously saying is false.

 

[srh88]

 

[curious2garden]

And this is what I was talking about with a fuzzy line. I don't think labeling someone such as ariel as an outcast will be a slippery slope that leads to me being the next one voted off the island. I don't know exactly how to define the line, but I feel ariel is clearly on one side of it.

I totally get the argument though, when I see knee jerk reactions about other questionable offenders. Like someone that molested a 12 year old. Yea it is heinous, but does that mean he is no longer a human? Or even someone that murdered someone.

Putting people like ariel and his ilk into a normal contained and cared for society so he can live a cushy life inside at the expense of me, his victims, and everyone else seems like a slap to the face. Subsidized humanity.

Precisely we are still taking this all very personally. Our body and minds are machines. They can break. We do not have the technology to fix the machine, yet. But we are on the path. So do we kill them or treat them with humanity while awaiting a fix. When a printer just keeps jamming do you take a baseball bat to it? If so don't you feel a bit foolish?

So let's say we simply kill them for the sake of finite resources and all. Who does the killing and what does sanctioned killing do to the humanity that engages in it?

If we take human life it changes you in ways you have no way to imagine. It creates sanctioned predators. You know, the ones who turn the machines off. Someone has to do that job. Do you think that increases or decreases your empathy for humanity?

We are dangerous creatures with a very complex mind. Until we get this shit mapped and a some real solutions I think we need to stop creating predators of any ilk. We need to stop creating priesthoods that handle these things and contain the secret knowledge and the 'regulars' who live nice mentally protected lives of unicorn shat rainbows.

We need to stop creating dividing lines so we can kill with equanimity.

 

[guy incognito]

I think this is where we have a basic difference of perception. I don't buy that this is something of which the average human is incapable. Nonetheless I do buy that the average person cannot fathom it. Behold the soothing power of denial.

I agree that it is his actions and not his nature that are the issue here. If you read many responses here, you will find a consensus among some that those actions are because of a not-quite-human nature. This is what I am vigorously saying is false.

I guess we will just agree to disagree.

 

[guy incognito]

Precisely we are still taking this all very personally. Our body and minds are machines. They can break. We do not have the technology to fix the machine, yet. But we are on the path. So do we kill them or treat them with humanity while awaiting a fix. When a printer just keeps jamming do you take a baseball bat to it? If so don't you feel a bit foolish?

So let's say we simply kill them for the sake of finite resources and all. Who does the killing and what does sanctioned killing do to the humanity that engages in it?

If we take human life it changes you in ways you have no way to imagine. It creates sanctioned predators. You know, the ones who turn the machines off. Someone has to do that job. Do you think that increases or decreases your empathy for humanity?

We are dangerous creatures with a very complex mind. Until we get this shit mapped and a some real solutions I think we need to stop creating predators of any ilk. We need to stop creating priesthoods that handle these things and contain the secret knowledge and the 'regulars' who live nice mentally protected lives of unicorn shat rainbows.

We need to stop creating dividing lines so we can kill with equanimity.

I think there are some criminals who can't be repaired. They are fundamentally different. Ariel is one them. <---- imo, just fyi

Having said that, I don't know what the answer is. I agree with you it creates sanctioned predators. This is an unfortunate consequence. Wanting to cause harm to ariel above and beyond what is needed to safely segregate him from society is sadistic. It is a visceral response and solves nothing but a sadistic emotional urge.

However I don't have any compassion for the man, and wouldn't have a problem with him being thrown to the wolves.

 

[curious2garden]

I think there are some criminals who can't be repaired. They are fundamentally different. Ariel is one them. <---- imo, just fyi

Having said that, I don't know what the answer is. I agree with you it creates sanctioned predators. This is an unfortunate consequence. Wanting to cause harm to ariel above and beyond what is needed to safely segregate him from society is sadistic. It is a visceral response and solves nothing but a sadistic emotional urge.

However I don't have any compassion for the man, and wouldn't have a problem with him being thrown to the wolves.

Yes there you have the eternal dichotomy. That's my problem. We can't repair them so we must segregate them and we should do it humanely. At the point we engage in seeing any human as less than us by any form of logic we are heading for ruin. I came from a time we called the mother's of autistics, "Refrigerator Mother's". We blamed them and it went so far they were denied visiting their own sick children! I wince to think of the witch hunt this will be viewed as.

I agree these are horrendous things we are all capable of and now I'm going to godwin this thread. Because that's the real horror of The Holocaust. It's how easily the majority of normal human beings were co-opted into doing something, even by omission, they knew was wrong because of the re-definition of humanity. That's the lesson and I doubt we as a society can learn it. It is so far against our natural schematizing as to make us writhe at the base of our natures.

So I don't have a solution. I only know based upon history our path is wrong. I know based upon science where the solution will be but the chasm currently between the two is deep and dark.