Food stamps and conservative ideology

[Rob Roy]

You can't have it both ways. Unregulated capitalism leads to monopoly, part of the reason redistribution exists/ is a necessity. Without it the system would collapse. Capitalism inevitably requires big government, which is the reason those of us on the left on this board poke so much fun at the American interpretation of libertarianism, since it's a contradiction.

Socialism inevitably requires big government also. Hmmmm....maybe government is the problem?

Libertarianism, like many of the isms is an often misused word. Wouldn't it be better if all human interactions were on a voluntary and peaceful basis?

 

[burgertime2010]

I think the compassion that you allude to is fantasy. People pay taxes for much more under threat of persecution....is that bad. I am saddened by the state of a country that has to push so hard to get such basic resources. It is charity and I believe it to be the defining charachteristic of an ideal human being. Think of this aggression.....is it necessary? if so, than that is telling.

 

[Rob Roy]

Harboring the notion that welfare is a state's rights issue does not follow from being a "constitutionalist".

States don't have rights, individual people do. Individual people should help others if that is their inclination, no?

How would you justify this? Harboring the notion that one group of people can take ANYTHING that belongs to another person(s) without consent?

 

[Rob Roy]

I think the compassion that you allude to is fantasy. People pay taxes for much more under threat of persecution....is that bad. I am saddened by the state of a country that has to push so hard to get such basic resources. It is charity and I believe it to be the defining charachteristic of an ideal human being. Think of this aggression.....is it necessary? if so, than that is telling.

Charity cannot come from the point of a gun...only bullets. IF YOU, want to help others, then YOU, should do it.

You see a "good" result and ignore the method of funding....very telling.

Is it possible to help others without using threats to acquire the resources to help them? I think it is, because I do it everyday. What are some of the things YOU do to help others?

 

[burgertime2010]

Are forced government programs the ONLY way, to feed hungry people?

In a large way the answer is yes. The disabled, the young, the people who need help to get help do have to rely on government programs, and although alternative voluntary assistance may help as it did me. It is not like being drafted. What is wrong with forced programs to you? is it just a cost argument?

 

[burgertime2010]

Charity cannot come from the point of a gun...only bullets. IF YOU, want to help others, then YOU, should do it.

You see a "good" result and ignore the method of funding....very telling.

Is it possible to help others without using threats to acquire the resources to help them? I think it is, because I do it everyday. What are some of the things YOU do to help others?

I do not want to become enraged, I am educated, disabled, and my well being I owe to the many who afford this to me. Do not assume that my arguments are hollow or about politics. It is possible to help others. It is not possible for me to pay it forward without resources. I do advocacy work, work with seizure dogs, and try to enable people to grow their medicine. What do we do?

 

[Rob Roy]

In a large way the answer is yes. The disabled, the young, the people who need help to get help do have to rely on government programs, and although alternative voluntary assistance may help as it did me. It is not like being drafted. What is wrong with forced programs to you? is it just a cost argument?

Thank you for answering politely.

The non initiation of aggression principle is a core philosophy of people that want a peaceful world. Following that will lead to it. Deviating from that will not. I try to follow it.

Coercive governments (nearly all of them) exist thru violating the non initiation of aggression principle, therefore I don't support them. You might want to check out a book by Dr. Mary Ruart, HEALING OUR WORLD....she does a good job explaining the unintended consequences of how "trying to help" using aggressive methods often creates unintended consequences.

Some "costs" are more than just financial. Peace.

 

[burgertime2010]

I am interested in solutions where I am not a freeloader, waste of money, disposable political line item half-human in the eyes of so many. What is one to do? I get a little tired when all the clever postulations forget the solution that they made seem so obvious. If you don't want to pay taxes period and imagine a society where that will work than I support your effort to make that a reality.

 

[max420thc]

Actually, both statements are incorrect. It is precisely the constitution which authorizes the gov't to redistribute wealth with such (welfare) programs.

Please quote verse's of the constitution that back up what you are saying?followed by quotes from the federalist and anti federalist papers .

 

[burgertime2010]

Please quote verse's of the constitution that back up what you are saying?followed by quotes from the federalist and anti federalist papers .

I feel like perhaps the Constitution may be obsolete in such matters. What do you think?

 

[Rob Roy]

I am interested in solutions where I am not a freeloader, waste of money, disposable political line item half-human in the eyes of so many. What is one to do? I get a little tired when all the clever postulations forget the solution that they made seem so obvious. If you don't want to pay taxes period and imagine a society where that will work than I support your effort to make that a reality.

I don't want to enable systems that bundle "bads and dis services" (bombs for babies etc.) with "goods and services" (roads etc.) . I think there are more efficient ways to do things and I'm certain there are more ethical ways to do them. The entrenched systems and the people that run them have a mercenary self interest to prevent the unbundling, they like to hold power over others...

I don't have any problem. with people paying for that which they use, and/or voluntarily wish to pay for. My objections center around the arbitrary application of a one size fits all system that has the initiation of force at the core. Helping others is a good thing, but forcing others to do things, isn't good.

You might try to google, Free State Project, there are lots of people there that are seeking to set up systems that rely on voluntary and peaceful interactions. Like any group of people you'll find some doing things you may agree with, and others maybe not.

 

[Rob Roy]

Please quote verse's of the constitution that back up what you are saying?followed by quotes from the federalist and anti federalist papers .

The constitution is flawed from the beginning, it cannot grant consent over people without resorting to an illogical leap. Lysander Spooner dismantles the supposed authority of the Constitution in one of his essays....but of course government and logic being on the same page is a rare occurrence.

 

[burgertime2010]

Anyway, the cognitive dissonance that anyone opposed to such programs on principle is never exercised when need finds them ironically. This section of the population is undergoing a shift that will be interesting to witness. I mean the poor, the welfare community, the disabled demographic are merging and the politics are going to show that this is about a lot more.

 

[ProfessorPotSnob]

Now I want some commodity cheese .. No food stamp can buy that lol

 

[Rob Roy]

Anyway, the cognitive dissonance that anyone opposed to such programs on principle is never exercised when need finds them ironically. This section of the population is undergoing a shift that will be interesting to witness. I mean the poor, the welfare community, the disabled demographic are merging and the politics are going to show that this is about a lot more.

Cognitive dissonance? Ultimately coercive methods cannot deliver "good things". Strike the Root, rather than striking the branches.

You may want to google STRIKE THE ROOT. It is an interesting web site that advocates voluntary and peaceful interactions.

Poor people have no more right to steal from others than rich people do.

 

[burgertime2010]

I agree entirely, I am held hostage by a flaw in the system that is the profit-motivation behind govt programs. The problem is that as we age and change our priorities do to. We can cherrypick what to support based on our current needs but perspective that older folks offer is ignored because of the unbundling. I find it easier to just say our thumbs are up our asses. I would like to see a mankind that does not think of humanity as obligatory and burdensome to extend to those who need help. The way I make my stand is to be polite, to personify this reality, and to ask how to put politics aside.

 

[burgertime2010]

Hungry people have more right to steal...their life depends upon it. I will grant them a little latitude.

 

[H R Puff N Stuff]

if you want to save money get rid of corprate subsidies when all of those are gone then cut food stamps ect. until then most arguments are bs in my book.

 

[burgertime2010]

Cognitive dissonance? Ultimately coercive methods cannot deliver "good things". Strike the Root, rather than striking the branches.

You may want to google STRIKE THE ROOT. It is an interesting web site that advocates voluntary and peaceful interactions.

Poor people have no more right to steal from others than rich people do.

If you needed medical assistance provided by coercive methods and it kept you alive that is a good thing. Rich or poor....alive and fed....I don't feel forced to support that

 

[burgertime2010]

if you want to save money get rid of corprate subsidies when all of those are gone then cut food stamps ect. until then most arguments are bs in my book.

I agree but saving money is not the argument I hear made. It is vaguely hovering around the idea that the govt is extorting goodwill at gunpoint as it pertains to social welfare.