The truth about minimum wage and income inequality

heckler73

heckler73

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
Ever hear them quote anything but the core CPI? They don't base it on what consumers buy, the goods consumers buy doesn't change every year like the CPI does. Now they want to base Social Security cost of living increases on a CPI that assumes when products get more expensive, consumers will buy alternatives that cost less. Like giving up steak for hamburger, giving up hamburger for baloney, giving up baloney for cat food, giving up cat food for tree bark, giving up tree bark for eating your children. We may all be starving, but the CPI says nothing has changed. You can't claim metrics based on different units of measure every time you calculate them are in any way an accurate measure of reality.
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And your claim that the CPI is calculated differently every time is based on what?
The ILO Manual for calculating CPI?
http://www.ilo.org/public/english/bureau/stat/guides/cpi/#manual
 
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tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
Ever hear them quote anything but the core CPI? They don't base it on what consumers buy, the goods consumers buy doesn't change every year like the CPI does. Now they want to base Social Security cost of living increases on a CPI that assumes when products get more expensive, consumers will buy alternatives that cost less. Like giving up steak for hamburger, giving up hamburger for baloney, giving up baloney for cat food, giving up cat food for tree bark, giving up tree bark for eating your children. We may all be starving, but the CPI says nothing has changed. You can't claim metrics based on different units of measure every time you calculate them are in any way an accurate measure of reality.
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Who cares what "they" are quoting? Your assertion was that food and energy was totally excluded in order to mask inflation, and that isn't true. Anyone can easily look up the CPI that includes everything--it's actually the headline index in the government's own materials!

What consumers buy is constantly changing, which is why the BLS updates the basket. How else could you have a meaningful number? Comparing the prices of horses, movie tickets, and cigarettes from 100 years ago to the prices for the same items today would make no sense as a measurement of inflation. If most people don't buy cigarettes, increases in cigarette prices become less relevant to consumer reality; you adjust the basket to reflect that actual behavior. The goal of CPI is to compare purchasing power from one period of time to purchasing power in another period of time, not to reflect the now irrelevant prices of a fixed basket of goods. If you don't measure what actually happens, you aren't accurately measuring how people experience inflation.
 
Red1966

Red1966

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but I can't accept comparing the price of an apple in 1950 to the price of apple today is not a valid comparison, but comparing the price of a apple today to the price of a horse in 1950 is a valid comparison. There is no list of the price of everything, let alone for every year in history as you imply. Assuming the choices in the items selected for the "basket" are not going to influence the outcome, or that these choices are done impartially seems naive. The goal of the CPI is nothing. It is non sentient and has no goals. The goal of the functionaries who calculate the CPI is to come up with a number that satisfies their bosses, namely politicians. Politicians have only one goal, to maintain or improve their power. The methods used are just way too easily manipulated and the desire to do so too great to expect any result that isn't biased. CPI doesn't really measure inflation anyway. It measures appreciation/depreciation of goods which are based on many factors unrelated to inflation, primarily supply and demand. As it is, I don't consider CPI to an be indicator that can be trusted.
 
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tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
Sorry, but I can't accept comparing the price of an apple in 1950 to the price of apple today is not a valid comparison, but comparing the price of a apple today to the price of a horse in 1950 is a valid comparison. There is no list of the price of everything, let alone for every year in history as you imply. Assuming the choices in the items selected for the "basket" are not going to influence the outcome, or that these choices are done impartially seems naive. The goal of the CPI is nothing. It is non sentient and has no goals. The goal of the functionaries who calculate the CPI is to come up with a number that satisfies their bosses, namely politicians. Politicians have only one goal, to maintain or improve their power. The methods used are just way too easily manipulated and the desire to do so too great to expect any result that isn't biased. CPI doesn't really measure inflation anyway. It measures appreciation/depreciation of goods which are based on many factors unrelated to inflation, primarily supply and demand. As it is, I don't consider CPI to an be indicator that can be trusted.
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Apples are one of the prices in the basket. Or are you alleging that they were removed to hide inflation at some point?

The BLS compiles the price lists by gathering all (or samples of it, perhaps more accurately) of the data directly from the sources. If you want to be cynical, everything they say is a lie. Having worked for the executive level of government, I'm far less cynical than that. I think some economists at BLS probably treat CPI as their baby, having dreadfully uninteresting discussions about how they might better measure prices in order to make the index more accurate. They're probably professionals, not appointed, so they really don't care about what the appointees want--they'll all be gone in a few years anyway.

I went to a meeting in Washington about dealing with political appointees--how to act ethically, in part. This was a packed room of people from various places throughout the federal government, a retired federal employee acting as motivational speaker. He basically said what I wrote above: I don't want to give in to your demands and I don't have to. I'm difficult to fire and you're terrified to fire me; but you'll be gone any time now--I've seen a lot of you shuffle in and out. Nope.

I think this scenario is constantly playing out in reality because political appointees are always cognizant of the risk that a story could end up on the front page of a newspaper exposing some nefarious manipulation or decision. When you're managing professional staff, it's likely to be your head rolling, and that really must be bounding.

Edit: I feel obligated to take this a step further thinking back on my time in government. If you're a BLS economist, you don't want your shoddy work exposed and condemned by some professor in a journal article. Federal employees really don't act like sheep--they don't just silently follow whatever commands are given by superiors. With respect to professional staff in the government, whether they're engineers, economists, lawyers, or whatever else, these often aren't incompetent people who are hopelessly dependent on that federal job. A multitude of professional staff works for the federal government because that's what they sincerely want to do with their careers--work for the public. I can think of many people I knew who could have easily made several times their salaries in the private sector, if that's where they found themselves. That kind of person doesn't just roll over and follow orders: they immediately think of their personal mission, their ethics, and their professional reputation when they're asked to partake in murky behavior, and they stand up, arguing for the right thing because they really have nothing to lose. I think they win far more battles than they lose, and that makes the information supplied by professional staff quite good.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
...giving up tree bark for eating your children.
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now we know exactly how you stormfronted your poor children and wives.

now we know exactly what you meant by "you're doing it wrong" in response to a poster talking about eating a woman.

growace said:
How cool,
Most women won't tell us shit. We're supposed to know. Thanks for info. How come they pretend like they don't like getting ate.
They pretend not to like being complemented' even if were sincere. There still a mystery. I'm sub'd for answers. I hope your grow is going well.
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Red1966 said:
"How come they pretend like they don't like getting ate." You're doing it wrong.
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now we know, red. now we know.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
Sorry, but I can't accept comparing the price of an apple in 1950 to the price of apple today is not a valid comparison, but comparing the price of a apple today to the price of a horse in 1950 is a valid comparison. There is no list of the price of everything, let alone for every year in history as you imply. Assuming the choices in the items selected for the "basket" are not going to influence the outcome, or that these choices are done impartially seems naive. The goal of the CPI is nothing. It is non sentient and has no goals. The goal of the functionaries who calculate the CPI is to come up with a number that satisfies their bosses, namely politicians. Politicians have only one goal, to maintain or improve their power. The methods used are just way too easily manipulated and the desire to do so too great to expect any result that isn't biased. CPI doesn't really measure inflation anyway. It measures appreciation/depreciation of goods which are based on many factors unrelated to inflation, primarily supply and demand. As it is, I don't consider CPI to an be indicator that can be trusted.
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since tokeprep is attempting to respond intelligently to your dumb ass, i am going to attempt to save him some time.

tokeprep, you are arguing with a guy who spent days and possibly weeks arguing that a collection of 518 polls about the reality of the presidential election was not to be trusted simply because of the publishing source.

that said, there is no way he is going to give any credit whatsoever to your explanation about how core CPI or any other CPI is calculated, simply because of who calculates it. it does not matter that their calculation and methodology is on display for all to examine, stormfront red will muster all his idiocy in a futile attempt to discredit its basis in reality.

ya see, stormfront red lives in some type of alternate reality where gays should stop complaining and just be straight, and waffle houses exist in oregon (there are no waffle houses here, believe me).

i'll be happy to reference the thread in which herr red denies the accuracy of a compilation of 518 polls simply because it was publoished by anyone other than stormfront.org.

good dday, calm fellow.
 
Red1966

Red1966

Well-Known Member
tokeprep said:
Apples are one of the prices in the basket. Or are you alleging that they were removed to hide inflation at some point? The BLS compiles the price lists by gathering all (or samples of it, perhaps more accurately) of the data directly from the sources. If you want to be cynical, everything they say is a lie. Having worked for the executive level of government, I'm far less cynical than that. I think some economists at BLS probably treat CPI as their baby, having dreadfully uninteresting discussions about how they might better measure prices in order to make the index more accurate. They're probably professionals, not appointed, so they really don't care about what the appointees want--they'll all be gone in a few years anyway. I went to a meeting in Washington about dealing with political appointees--how to act ethically, in part. This was a packed room of people from various places throughout the federal government, a retired federal employee acting as motivational speaker. He basically said what I wrote above: I don't want to give in to your demands and I don't have to. I'm difficult to fire and you're terrified to fire me; but you'll be gone any time now--I've seen a lot of you shuffle in and out. Nope. I think this scenario is constantly playing out in reality because political appointees are always cognizant of the risk that a story could end up on the front page of a newspaper exposing some nefarious manipulation or decision. When you're managing professional staff, it's likely to be your head rolling, and that really must be bounding.
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Basically, you trust the "professionals" to do their jobs as honestly and ethically as possible regardless of the pressures that may be brought against them. I'm not sure that is true. They don't incriminate themselves when they have you "make one choice over another" nor do you even know sometimes that you're being steered. As an old poker saying goes, "If you can't tell who the sucker is at the table, it's you." I work under a Federally funded contract. If I were to "rock the boat", even unknowingly. a politician could have my funding cut. Termination, no recourse, no union contract, nothing. Anytime there's a budget cut in any department, funds get moved around and someone who rocked the boat gets booted. I saw a guy get canned just because someone wanted his office. Where does an economist get a job that isn't government or someone beholden to government? Each worker only sees the task set before him, very few see the whole picture, and they don't get to that position by not "going along". I also think that each person experiences inflation in different ways. A construction worker with a wife and two kids is affected differently than a single lawyer. They buy vastly different commodities, no "basket" could represent both. Too many cons and too few pros. The CPI is an untrustworthy indicator.
 
C

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
Basically, you trust the "professionals" to do their jobs as honestly and ethically as possible regardless of the pressures that may be brought against them. I'm not sure that is true. They don't incriminate themselves when they have you "make one choice over another" nor do you even know sometimes that you're being steered. As an old poker saying goes, "If you can't tell who the sucker is at the table, it's you." I work under a Federally funded contract. If I were to "rock the boat", even unknowingly. a politician could have my funding cut. Termination, no recourse, no union contract, nothing. Anytime there's a budget cut in any department, funds get moved around and someone who rocked the boat gets booted. I saw a guy get canned just because someone wanted his office. Where does an economist get a job that isn't government or someone beholden to government? Each worker only sees the task set before him, very few see the whole picture, and they don't get to that position by not "going along". I also think that each person experiences inflation in different ways. A construction worker with a wife and two kids is affected differently than a single lawyer. They buy vastly different commodities, no "basket" could represent both. Too many cons and too few pros. The CPI is an untrustworthy indicator.
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BLS is not under a Federal contract.
No employee is going to get fired for doing his job.
You will contradict anything that goes against your worldview

That's a real life problem.
 
Red1966

Red1966

Well-Known Member
ChesusRice said:
BLS is not under a Federal contract. No employee is going to get fired for doing his job. You will contradict anything that goes against your worldview That's a real life problem.
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The BLS is a Federal agency. Employees are fired or "downsized" all the time for not doing as they are told. Your statements are false, as is nearly everything you ever post.
 
C

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
The BLS is a Federal agency. Employees are fired or "downsized" all the time for not doing as they are told. Your statements are false, as is nearly everything you ever post.
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What a lofty assertion. Can you back it up in regards to the BLS?
Do you have any evidence of this?
What are your sources for this significant accusation?
Do you work for the HR department at the BLS?
 
Red1966

Red1966

Well-Known Member
Well, if I could prove it to your satisfaction (not possible for a fake idealist like you), I would be the next attorney general. Pretending it doesn't happen is foolish. But go ahead, we expect no less from you. I'm not going to play your silly game.
 
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tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
The BLS is a Federal agency. Employees are fired or "downsized" all the time for not doing as they are told. Your statements are false, as is nearly everything you ever post.
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That's not quite how the federal government works. See, everyone's been concerned about the problem you're referring to for a very long time, and that's how we got things like the Merit Systems Protection Board. If you're a covered employee, you get to petition the MSPB to hold what is essentially a judicial hearing. There are other protective systems in place as well.

The easiest people to fire are the political appointees because they serve at the pleasure of the president and basically have no protections whatsoever against losing their jobs. But career federal employees aren't in that position.
 
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