Let's talk about this stupid immigration issue

nontheist

Well-Known Member
Tell me again why a floor plates and cap plates are not needed in framing? lol I know I am trolling the shit out of you but you have absolutely no excuse except for not knowing how. It's basic procedure to frame that and doing so would of cost only a few dollars more and been 10X more strong, more plumb, and a hell of a lot safer. That's a piece from top to bottom thanks for sharing you mad carpentry skill though.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Tell me again why a floor plates and cap plates are not needed in framing? lol I know I am trolling the shit out of you but you have absolutely no excuse except for not knowing how. It's basic procedure to frame that and doing so would of cost only a few dollars more and been 10X more strong, more plumb, and a hell of a lot safer. That's a piece from top to bottom thanks for sharing you mad carpentry skill though.
floor plates and top caps have their place in framing, it all depends on the assignment.

my assignment: minimize cost for structure capable of draping 4 rolls of plastic over for 6-8 month period.

all i needed to ensure that kind of stability were a few scraps of 2x4s and a few extra screws. the structure was strong enough, plumb enough, and safe enough to endure 40 mph winds at the end of the season without budging. it will make it through the winter just fine and i'll probably use it all over again next year without a worry in the world.

overbuilding can be just as retarded as underbuilding. why spend extra money when you don't have to? do you enjoy donating to home depot?

you want to see the first thing i ever built in my life? it's a multi-layer grow box with mismatched pine siding, sweet european hinges (for maximum stealth), and the ugliest trim you ever saw. all built on a shoestring budget to boot.

my favorite part is where i used golf balls as door handles. those were the two golf balls i used for the only two times i ever shot under par on my two favorite courses. here she is at lights on:



my dad had to convince me not to use shitty wood for the doors so that they did not sag over time. probably worth the $20 extra or so, looking back. you can't even spot the intake or exhaust, can ya? that's how you grow in a 600 sq ft apartment.
 

nontheist

Well-Known Member
floor plates and top caps have their place in framing, it all depends on the assignment.

my assignment: minimize cost for structure capable of draping 4 rolls of plastic over for 6-8 month period.

all i needed to ensure that kind of stability were a few scraps of 2x4s and a few extra screws. the structure was strong enough, plumb enough, and safe enough to endure 40 mph winds at the end of the season without budging. it will make it through the winter just fine and i'll probably use it all over again next year without a worry in the world.

overbuilding can be just as retarded as underbuilding. why spend extra money when you don't have to? do you enjoy donating to home depot?

you want to see the first thing i ever built in my life? it's a multi-layer grow box with mismatched pine siding, sweet european hinges (for maximum stealth), and the ugliest trim you ever saw. all built on a shoestring budget to boot.

my favorite part is where i used golf balls as door handles. those were the two golf balls i used for the only two times i ever shot under par on my two favorite courses. here she is at lights on:



my dad had to convince me not to use shitty wood for the doors so that they did not sag over time. probably worth the $20 extra or so, looking back. you can't even spot the intake or exhaust, can ya? that's how you grow in a 600 sq ft apartment.
What fuck are you talking about "they don't have their place" its fucking standard a top plate is crucial to the whole fucking building/structure it what holds the fucking walls together and saying a floor plate is optional is fucking lol funny. Keep digging bucky you just can't stop can you. Trying to make the case that it's easier rely on screws to ignore common safe building practices is retarded.

 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
What fuck are you talking about "they don't have their place" its fucking standard a top plate is crucial to the whole fucking building/structure it what holds the fucking walls together and saying a floor plate is optional is fucking lol funny. Keep digging bucky you just can't stop can you. Trying to make the case that it's easier rely on screws to ignore common safe building practices is retarded.
excuse me, sir. i did not say that "they don't have their place", i said quite specifically:*floor plates and top caps have their place in framing, it all depends on the assignment.

considering that i got all i wanted and needed out of my cheap, on the fly, greenhouse, i would say that they were not needed for my purposes. to employ them in this project would have been overbuilding, aka giving money to the home depot for no reason.

how much money do you donate to the home depot every year?
 

nontheist

Well-Known Member
excuse me, sir. i did not say that "they don't have their place", i said quite specifically:*floor plates and top caps have their place in framing, it all depends on the assignment.

considering that i got all i wanted and needed out of my cheap, on the fly, greenhouse, i would say that they were not needed for my purposes. to employ them in this project would have been overbuilding, aka giving money to the home depot for no reason.
Just shows you have no idea what you're talking about trying to bluff your way through this.

how much money do you donate to the home depot every year?
Only uninformed DIY's shop at homedepot or Lowes
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Just shows you have no idea what you're talking about trying to bluff your way through this.
so. your contention then is that these materials you speak of were needed for my purposes.

yet my greenhouse has not only achieved my goals, but surpassed them.

if i achieved my goal without said materials, would they be needed? think about the definition of the word "need" before answering.

Only uninformed DIY's shop at homedepot or Lowes
home depot is about a mile and a quarter from my house. the nearest non-chain lumber store is over 7 miles from my house.

i do not own a pickup truck. i transported this lumber over the course of three trips in my four door sedan.

should i have not only spent more money on lumber, but also more money on gas for transport?

i need to get into the habit of heeding the advice of internet gaylords like yourself more often. just think of all the money i could have wasted had i framed my greenhouse 16'' on center with ultimately unnecessary cap plates and ceiling joists.

sorry. overbuilding and wasting money do not appeal to me.
 

thump easy

Well-Known Member
No one really is serious about immigration, even when they say they are. I have run numbers that indicate that even allowing for the taxes that illegals pay, the contribution to the national work force and their being consumers - we would be better served to actually round up all illegals and deport them. The cost is NOT prohibitive. Now remember that I am a liberal and being such am not as against expansion of government or the expenditure of government collected taxation so the concept of going out and picking up every illegal in the country is not as abhorrent to me as it would be to a conservative..

What is being missed due to short memories and lazy legislators is that we tried this amnesty thing before and the result was an even larger influx of illegals this go round. Amnesty in any form does not work. What it is, is a statute of limitations rule that encourages more of the same. "listen Quac, if you manage to get to this country and stay here long enough, eventually the government will give you a pass".

A true fence and well guarded southern border is a great start. Next would be a real streamlining of immigration and naturalization rules that would actually give folks of little means a chance at getting into this country legitimately and in a short amount of time. I read recently that it could take as long as 28 years to become a U.S. citizen if one has no contacts or "friends" in the country.

But I am aware that most illegals aren't illegal because the legal system is too cumbersome, they never even attempted to do things the legal way. They simply don't see the point in going that route when they don't have to.

Which brings me to the real argument. Why are we punishing people who for the most part simply want to make a better life for themselves? Why aren't we going after the source of the problem - the companies that hire illegals.

I recall once, years ago, just before the last amnesty move, seeing a line. I was consulting for a carpet company, a large one. I saw a line of thirty or forty latinos waiting to get to a truck and on the flatbed of this truck were several people giving something to each person in the line, one at a time. I asked what they were doing and was told not to ask, i asked anyway and discovered that these people were being paid every friday in cash for their work that week installing carpet.


It is the illegal's "fault" for being in this country, but he is only enabled to be here if he has a legitimate job. Serious sanctions placed upon employers would eliminate a number of problems. When illegals (those from the south) get to this country they manage to find low paying jobs - jobs that pay so poorly that they cannot afford to live in their own apartments but pack themselves into houses or apartments in multiple families.


There is a national child support database that enables states through the federal government to discover all new hires within a single fiscal quarter. If this database and system were used to keep illegals from being able to find employment it would quickly slow the flow of illegals and begin to reverse that flow.

Most companies are aware that they can skirt employment laws - employment services or "manpower" workers know full well that their people are illegal and they are not sanctioned when that is discovered.

Strict rules and harsh punishment for employers who hire illegals would go a long way. Better safeguards on falsified social security numbers would protect the companies that truely want to comply but are fooled by counterfit paper.

Finally, an international PR campaign would help greatly. I have seen the pamphlets passed out in Mexico on how to manage one's self when they are attempting to cross the border or after they have reached the United States. Some of those pamphlets are distributed by well meaning U.S. organizations but the point they make to the population is that illegal entry and habitation in the U.S. is not a big deal. If we have it appear to be a big deal, then it will become at least to some, a big deal.



So we have a fence, deportation of anyone caught breaking any other laws in the U.S., strong sanctions against employers of illegals, safeguards against counterfit social security numbers and a campaign informing potentials that they could be jailed before being deported (or something scary). I don't know what the constitutionality of holding an illegal until he finds the money to pay for his transit out of the country is but this might be worth looking into.


Any thoughts?
thats prity harsh how are you gona deport people that lived hear before you got hear columbus thats funny how are you gona deport people that got pushed back from indain wars thier are a shit load of apache people that ran into mexico the texas stand off is a lie my budies grandfather assasinated panchoe the u.s payed for his assasination yet the books read other wise i could pull up proof in not shure i would be geting in over my head the colprite was brought over to the u.s. and payed and was hid but the books read diffrent also how are you gona just have your people kill and push indians into a place then move in and take over thats greedy man thats fucked up we should deport you back to europe big dog this land is every mother fuckers land lolz dont trip the fools that want imigration to happend have mexican gardners and maids look at the preditore the mayor of cali .... lolz man this hole shit is some fucked up shit before you know it this land aint even gona be yours or mine it will belong to other nationalities thats thier plan slowly but sherly i would try to make something better work it almost feels like hittler all over again they made room for you and know you want to wipe out the people of the sun that always walked this land.. that crazzy homie you crazzy man..
 

thump easy

Well-Known Member
No one really is serious about immigration, even when they say they are. I have run numbers that indicate that even allowing for the taxes that illegals pay, the contribution to the national work force and their being consumers - we would be better served to actually round up all illegals and deport them. The cost is NOT prohibitive. Now remember that I am a liberal and being such am not as against expansion of government or the expenditure of government collected taxation so the concept of going out and picking up every illegal in the country is not as abhorrent to me as it would be to a conservative..

What is being missed due to short memories and lazy legislators is that we tried this amnesty thing before and the result was an even larger influx of illegals this go round. Amnesty in any form does not work. What it is, is a statute of limitations rule that encourages more of the same. "listen Quac, if you manage to get to this country and stay here long enough, eventually the government will give you a pass".

A true fence and well guarded southern border is a great start. Next would be a real streamlining of immigration and naturalization rules that would actually give folks of little means a chance at getting into this country legitimately and in a short amount of time. I read recently that it could take as long as 28 years to become a U.S. citizen if one has no contacts or "friends" in the country.

But I am aware that most illegals aren't illegal because the legal system is too cumbersome, they never even attempted to do things the legal way. They simply don't see the point in going that route when they don't have to.

Which brings me to the real argument. Why are we punishing people who for the most part simply want to make a better life for themselves? Why aren't we going after the source of the problem - the companies that hire illegals.

I recall once, years ago, just before the last amnesty move, seeing a line. I was consulting for a carpet company, a large one. I saw a line of thirty or forty latinos waiting to get to a truck and on the flatbed of this truck were several people giving something to each person in the line, one at a time. I asked what they were doing and was told not to ask, i asked anyway and discovered that these people were being paid every friday in cash for their work that week installing carpet.


It is the illegal's "fault" for being in this country, but he is only enabled to be here if he has a legitimate job. Serious sanctions placed upon employers would eliminate a number of problems. When illegals (those from the south) get to this country they manage to find low paying jobs - jobs that pay so poorly that they cannot afford to live in their own apartments but pack themselves into houses or apartments in multiple families.


There is a national child support database that enables states through the federal government to discover all new hires within a single fiscal quarter. If this database and system were used to keep illegals from being able to find employment it would quickly slow the flow of illegals and begin to reverse that flow.

Most companies are aware that they can skirt employment laws - employment services or "manpower" workers know full well that their people are illegal and they are not sanctioned when that is discovered.

Strict rules and harsh punishment for employers who hire illegals would go a long way. Better safeguards on falsified social security numbers would protect the companies that truely want to comply but are fooled by counterfit paper.

Finally, an international PR campaign would help greatly. I have seen the pamphlets passed out in Mexico on how to manage one's self when they are attempting to cross the border or after they have reached the United States. Some of those pamphlets are distributed by well meaning U.S. organizations but the point they make to the population is that illegal entry and habitation in the U.S. is not a big deal. If we have it appear to be a big deal, then it will become at least to some, a big deal.



So we have a fence, deportation of anyone caught breaking any other laws in the U.S., strong sanctions against employers of illegals, safeguards against counterfit social security numbers and a campaign informing potentials that they could be jailed before being deported (or something scary). I don't know what the constitutionality of holding an illegal until he finds the money to pay for his transit out of the country is but this might be worth looking into.


Any thoughts?
thats prity harsh how are you gona deport people that lived hear before you got hear columbus thats funny how are you gona deport people that got pushed back from indain wars thier are a shit load of apache people that ran into mexico the texas stand off is a lie my budies grandfather assasinated panchoe the u.s payed for his assasination yet the books read other wise i could pull up proof in not shure i would be geting in over my head the colprite was brought over to the u.s. and payed and was hid but the books read diffrent also how are you gona just have your people kill and push indians into a place then move in and take over thats greedy man thats fucked up we should deport you back to europe big dog this land is every mother fuckers land lolz dont trip the fools that want imigration to happend have mexican gardners and maids look at the preditore the mayor of cali .... lolz man this hole shit is some fucked up shit before you know it this land aint even gona be yours or mine it will belong to other nationalities thats thier plan slowly but sherly i would try to make something better work it almost feels like hittler all over again they made room for you and know you want to wipe out the people of the sun that always walked this land.. that crazzy homie you crazzy man.. i think this is what your scared ofm_4d302037c827898317aea00e24ef25aa.jpg
 

fb360

Active Member
I think UB did a pretty decent job. I would change the horizontal roof frame to be vertical in parallel and line with the vertical wall beams, but the direction the greenhouse is facing (sun rises in the east and sets in the west, as well as is angled to the south) and his latitude has some impact.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
I think UB did a pretty decent job. I would change the horizontal roof frame to be vertical in parallel and line with the vertical wall beams, but the direction the greenhouse is facing (sun rises in the east and sets in the west, as well as is angled to the south) and his latitude has some impact.
the front door of the GH (right side of the photo) faces west, i am about at the 45 degree parallel.

as an engineer, you know that it is not prudent to overbuild. my budget for the GH was in the $300-$400 range, and than number includes all the plastic, tape, staples, and fans. i had a very limited amount of lumber laying around, and i had all the hardware.

i issue a challenge (open to everyone).

on a budget of $300-$400, design a greenhouse that is approximately 12x24. no limit on what materials you use, but you have to cite prices. 2x4x8 pieces were 1.92-2.08 when i built my little greenhouse for reference, even though i used mostly 2x4x12s for cost savings.

the total price has to include all the fans and plastic and plastic securing materials as well. i used two regular box fans for extraction and one huge oscillating fan for circulation, your design should include similar air movement devices, lest we risk mold.
 

fb360

Active Member
the front door of the GH (right side of the photo) faces west, i am about at the 45 degree parallel.

as an engineer, you know that it is not prudent to overbuild. my budget for the GH was in the $300-$400 range, and than number includes all the plastic, tape, staples, and fans. i had a very limited amount of lumber laying around, and i had all the hardware.

i issue a challenge (open to everyone).

on a budget of $300-$400, design a greenhouse that is approximately 12x24. no limit on what materials you use, but you have to cite prices. 2x4x8 pieces were 1.92-2.08 when i built my little greenhouse for reference, even though i used mostly 2x4x12s for cost savings.

the total price has to include all the fans and plastic and plastic securing materials as well. i used two regular box fans for extraction and one huge oscillating fan for circulation, your design should include similar air movement devices, lest we risk mold.
I said you did a decent job. Looks structurally sound (for the most part) and like you have mentioned, utilizes the minimum amount of materials needed. Again though, I would make the roof a bit more sturdy by adding vertical beams that are in line with the ones for the wall.

Give me $100 and I could make the frame. The rest I'm unsure of the cost

e;
Here's my full EXPERT analysis:



That vertical beam on the east side is crucial for load baring of the roof (you have none so its cool). If you wanted to add considerable strength, or if you have roof loading, you would put a beam there. (notice the load bending/deforming the horizontal beam in the blue circle)
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
I said you did a decent job. Looks structurally sound (for the most part) and like you have mentioned, utilizes the minimum amount of materials needed. Again though, I would make the roof a bit more sturdy by adding vertical beams that are in line with the ones for the wall.

Give me $100 and I could make the frame. The rest I'm unsure of the cost
i forgot to thank you for the kudos. sorry :)

but the challenge still remains. i'd love to see a "frame only" challenge. if i remember about right, the frame itself (lumber and screws) came out to about $150-$175 (plastic and tape and staples = ~$100, fans and extension cords were $$75-$100 or so). i also had some (not much) lumber lying around.

base it on lumber prices slightly cheaper than what we have today.

this especially applies to nontheist, who earned some respect from me by knowing his shit with respect to framing.
 

nontheist

Well-Known Member
so. your contention then is that these materials you speak of were needed for my purposes.
If your greenhouse has walls dumbass

yet my greenhouse has not only achieved my goals, but surpassed them.

if i achieved my goal without said materials, would they be needed? think about the definition of the word "need" before answering.
I guess you don't need seats or a seat belt for a car but all the same its recommended. Sitting around saying that you were smart enough but chose not support your roof from falling on your head to save 20 bucks is moronic. Trying to save face on a topic you know nothing about is really doing you in bucky.



home depot is about a mile and a quarter from my house. the nearest non-chain lumber store is over 7 miles from my house.

i do not own a pickup truck. i transported this lumber over the course of three trips in my four door sedan.

should i have not only spent more money on lumber, but also more money on gas for transport?

i need to get into the habit of heeding the advice of internet gaylords like yourself more often.
First of all I am not giving your dumbass advise I am pointing out your flaws, i give two shits if it collapses on you or ends up sticking out of your prius's windshield.
You talking about hauling lumber in wife's prius then have the nerve to call someone gaylord lol.
That non-chain lumber yard will have better material not the subpar shit lowes and depot sale and are negotiable and deliver free (may have to wait a day or two) something that everyone in the contracting field knows. But you're right they would see your gay ass knew nothing and fucking cornhole you.

just think of all the money i could have wasted had i framed my greenhouse 16'' on center with ultimately unnecessary cap plates and ceiling joists.

Unnecessary if you don't care that the roof could come crashing down on you at any given wind gust. Cap plates are absolutely necessary for building load-bearing walls.
I never said anything about OC stud width I am aware you're not insulating. Again that for throwing that out there and keep showing your ignorance.

sorry. overbuilding and wasting money do not appeal to me.
First you have to be able to build to overbuild your load-bearing walls and amateur roof could fail at anytime. That might be your description of built but I highly doubt it's anyone else.
 

fb360

Active Member
i forgot to thank you for the kudos. sorry :)

but the challenge still remains. i'd love to see a "frame only" challenge. if i remember about right, the frame itself (lumber and screws) came out to about $150-$175 (plastic and tape and staples = ~$100, fans and extension cords were $$75-$100 or so). i also had some (not much) lumber lying around.

base it on lumber prices slightly cheaper than what we have today.

this especially applies to nontheist, who earned some respect from me by knowing his shit with respect to framing.
I already gave you my schoolyard expert analysis above in the edit, but here's a start:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1z0ywxv/R-100092313/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#.UQ444Wf4JXU

2x4x10' for $3.80

Say you need 200', that's still only $76. You could get 260' for < $100 before tax
 

nontheist

Well-Known Member
I said you did a decent job. Looks structurally sound (for the most part) and like you have mentioned, utilizes the minimum amount of materials needed. Again though, I would make the roof a bit more sturdy by adding vertical beams that are in line with the ones for the wall.

Give me $100 and I could make the frame. The rest I'm unsure of the cost

e;
Here's my full EXPERT analysis:



That vertical beam on the east side is crucial for load baring of the roof (you have none so its cool). If you wanted to add considerable strength, or if you have roof loading, you would put a beam there. (notice the load bending/deforming the horizontal beam in the blue circle)
Yes this is what cap plates and headers prevents, its pretty much keeps the shit from crashing down on top of you. Building load-bearing walls without cap plates is mental.
 

fb360

Active Member
Yes this is what cap plates and headers prevents, its pretty much keeps the shit from crashing down on top of you. Building load-bearing walls with cap plates is mental.
Yeah it's not perfect, but the load is a plastic sheet.. He isn't hanging lights, and already mentioned that this is much stronger than a previous pvc prototype which still lasted a season of wind. I know this is UB, but you can't say he did an absolute shit job. Of course we could do better though

e;
I personally would have purchased:

100'
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1z0ywxv/R-100092313/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#.UQ444Wf4JXU

100'
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1z0ywx8/R-202047663/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#.UQ47Z2f4JXU

Used 4x4 for all load baring and 2x4 for roofing and non-load baring. Still would have met his ~$175
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
I already gave you my schoolyard expert analysis above in the edit, but here's a start:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1z0ywxv/R-100092313/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#.UQ444Wf4JXU

2x4x10' for $3.80

Say you need 200', that's still only $76. You could get 260' for < $100 before tax
i used way more than 200' of lumber for this build. work out all the corner braces, the roof, the rafters and tell me you only need 260' of lumber.*

add some good screws into that equation too.
 

fb360

Active Member
i used way more than 200' of lumber for this build. work out all the corner braces, the roof, the rafters and tell me you only need 260' of lumber.*

add some good screws into that equation too.
I linked "premium" grade lumber firstly, secondly, you had waste.

I would have no lumber horizontally across the bottom. Instead I would put 10x 4x4x10' load bearing beams around the GH. 4 for the corners, and 1xeast+west, 2xnorth+south
I would then use ~100' of 2x4 to put horizontals on top of the load bearing, as well as for the roof. I might need some more there, but if you do that, that shit will last through a hurricane...

I think you did good though, unlike nontheist.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Yes this is what cap plates and headers prevents, its pretty much keeps the shit from crashing down on top of you. Building load-bearing walls with cap plates is mental.
what load am i bearing? :lol:

i will concede that wind catching the plastic can work as a sail if designed incorrectly, but this thing laughed at the wind.

it would take way more than you would think to knock this thing over.
 

nontheist

Well-Known Member
If you were really on a budget it would have been far better to do 12' 6x6s for corner post concrete 3ft deep with center post anywhere for 14' to 20' depending on peak but being a greenhouse lower is better but snow will fuck you so area specific. With that setup you can hack ass frame around that and it wont go anywhere. Old barns all over the place 50 years old still standing using this simple cheap method. Truly not being a dickhead that roof will collapse it might make another year it might not that single 2x4 and poor bracing isn't enough especially if you have plastic strong enough to not give during high gusts. I don't know about Oregon but I live in an area during spring storms would pick that thing up and flip it upside down.
 
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