So how about banning all semi-automatic weapons?
- Thread starter canndo
- Start date
Thanks, I'm not sleeping tonight. Be prepared for the phone call!
Seriously that is one ookie picture! Sort of like Stephen King's version of The Birds! I almost forgot, that is ONE time I'd want a full auto weapon (and many clips).
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I'd be happy with a belt-fed 12-gauge, lol. cn
Beefbisquit
Well-Known Member
Splooge!!! I've shot some belt-fed rifles and it's hella fun, shooting a belt fed 12ga would be off the wall fun! Bring on the pumpkins!
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
machine guns have, since 1934, required a poermit and a tax stamp (which was prohibitively expensive at the time) in 1968 the tax stamp and permit ALSO required a federal firearms license but yes it was otherwise legal... for all 61,000 FFL holders in the US, and NOBODY ELSE!
61,000 out of 300 MILLION people can legally buy a machine gun. and it's only a couple grand too, for a shitty mac 10.
in 1986 they simply declared no NEW machineguns could be imported or manufactured for sale to people who are not federal agents, cops or the pentagon. wow, that is a real game changer for the 299939000 of the rest of us who havent been able to buy a machinegun at all since 1968.
yeah you got it all sewn up. why not expoound on the cost of a fully automatic Thompson M1A1 in 1928($200 bucks which was fat sacks of lucre at the time, plus $200 in stamp tax, so the tax was 100% plus permit fees), and then in 1968 (round $500-600 plus $200 tax, plus fees and licensing for the FFL), and then in 1986? ($1800 + the stamp tax of $200, plus the FFL license) but the only machineguns a non-FFL holder could get were the shitty illegal shit guns like the mac's and the prices for those hasnt changed much since the 70's except for inflation.
the 1986 "no new machineguns" law only restricts the already tiny LEGAL machinegun market, and since the market is already a gun-dealers-only club it is irrelevent to the 99.9999995% of people who cannot exercise their rights because they arent part of the club.
the ban on importation of new black african slaves has really caused an increase in the prices of farm labourers and household negroes alike. you cant buy a shiney new coloured servant for anything like a reasonable price any more. i blame the new EEOC rules laid out in 1993 for the drastic reduction in my slave labour force. the emancipation proclamation had nothin to do with it, and if you think it did then you just dont know anything about human chattle.
I think you are confused about how the law worked. FFL's could sell new machine guns to people without licenses until 1986. You can't order any gun from a manufacturer now unless you are a FFL. The same thing applied then. The local gun shop(an FFL) buys guns from a distributor(an FFL) who gets it from a manufacturer. This hasn't changed except that FFL's could be run out of houses without harassment before Clinton. While the rules were different for machine guns, it wasn't that much different. All machine guns could be registered before 1986 for $200 and sold to civilians. They just had to be purchased from the manufacturer by an FFL just like every other gun is.
The only people who can buy new guns now are FFLs, they can then sell them to civilians. You seem to be confused about how FFL's work.
The part that you seem to not realize is that every person who owned a machine gun before 1986 could then sell it to any civilian who payed the $200 tax stamp. Comparing 1928, when automatic weapons just came out is pretty asinine and has nothing to do with what I said. I said before 1986 the prices of machine guns were much lower. You could get a M60 for 1500 NIB and a $200 tax stamp. They are $30k for a ragged out one now. The only difference is the supply was limited by the government.
The only thing I can drag up that talks about it is posts on class 3 forums and Wiki
Wiki:
However, the Act also contained a provision that banned the sale of machine guns manufactured after the date of enactment to civilians, restricting sales of these weapons to the military and law enforcement. Thus, in the ensuing years, the limited supply of these arms available to civilians has caused an enormous increase in their price, with most costing in excess of $10,000.
Also, your example of the thompson machine gun tries to state something completely incorrect. In 1935 a thompson machine gun was about $50. With inflation, and counting the $200 tax stamp that is about $4,000. Currently, they sell from $20k for a junky one to $60k for something good. If you can't do the math and see that price is many times higher than it should be due to demand then I don't know what to tell you. If they were making new ones that could be registered, they would go for about $1500-2000. They would be the same price as a dealer sample + markup. A fully automatic dealer sample is usually in the same price range as a semi automatic one.
"In 1934, the National Firearms Act placed a $200 tax on the transfer of ownership of a machine gun. Since then the BATF has added a raft of other regulations like requiring law enforcement sign off and fingerprints. The $200 tax was specifically intended to be so high most people wouldnt pay it. In 1934, Thompson Submachine guns sold for $50 and were considered overpriced. (Think H&K today) No one was willing to pay four times the price of an already overpriced machine gun PLUS the cost of the gun just to own a machine gun."
If the emancipation proclamation had outlawed all new slaves but left slaves who were already slaves as slaves than the price of slaves would of gone up as the supply shrank over time. Why do you insist on using intentionally incorrect examples?
It is hard to find figures. I posted the wiki insert that stated it. I also found references to prices in the old days.
Here is a forum talking about this exact thing:
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1246980
You are talking $1000 for a fully automatic M16 in the 80s.
Here is a flyer from that page:
Semi auto and full auto weapons were roughly the same price before 1986 besides the tax. They would be now too. This would put fully automatic AK's under $1000.
cancer survivor
Active Member
cut it out, I LOVE MY GUNS, guns are not the problem, its a people problem! crazy people always do crazy things! did you ever Shoot a gun??? thats some good fun! dont blame guns for what people do with them! you have a Nice day....
nitro harley
Well-Known Member
Hey cancer survivor...........
I love to shoot guns also.......I got to shoot this 12 gauge the other day... it was fun................nitro..
Attachments
Beefbisquit
Well-Known Member
Nice Saiga!
Beefbisquit
Well-Known Member
It is hard to find figures. I posted the wiki insert that stated it. I also found references to prices in the old days.
Here is a forum talking about this exact thing:
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1246980
You are talking $1000 for a fully automatic M16 in the 80s.
Here is a flyer from that page:
Semi auto and full auto weapons were roughly the same price before 1986 besides the tax. They would be now too. This would put fully automatic AK's under $1000.
Hehe neat! A Carl Gustaf SMG!
I've shot the Carl Gustaf recoilless rocket before, but never the SMG!
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
so you propose that before 1986, ANYONE could buy any automatic weapon they chose, simply by paying the tax stamp from a licensed gun dealer.
BULLSHIT!
the 1934 law made the licensing requirements and the tax onerous, and the arms were expensive already (list price for a thompson in 1934 was $180 not $50) even before the tax was added
starting in 1968 you HAD TO BE A FFL HOLDER TO BUY A MACHINE GUN but manufacturers could make and sell all they liked to FFL holders, and in fact many people tried to get an FFL just so they could buy a machine gun. the ATF did not approve of this.thats whjy theres only 61000 FFL holders in the nation even today. you cant just "git one and machine gun up" the only FFL currently available for most people is the curio and collector license which is easy to get but does NOT permit owning of machine guns at all.
in 1986 the feds decided to stop permitting the importation and manufacture of NEW machine guns, and prohibited the transfer of any machine gun not already licensed and registered before 1986 (still legal to own but you might as well be buried with it like a pharaoh since nobody else may legally own that gun EVER) even if you have an FFL. only those with the super special platinum privileges FFL may buy or import machine guns which are not already registered before 1986. just as some FFL holders may import and manufacture machine guns, grenades and other implements of war for the military and police. but ONLY for authorized agencies, and they are NOT allowed to sell them to ANYONE except authorized agencies, or firearms museums, and other platinum privileges cardholders.
if you have one of the platinum privileges cards every machine gun you have made/imported after 1986 can never be transferred save to another platinum privileges card holder.
yes it's complicated, but it is in NO WAY as you described, and wholesale prices for arms exporters/importers and dealers are NOT retail prices. your image is nothing but a cunard
canndo
Well-Known Member
This intentional reduction of a complex issue makes the discussion all the more difficult.
In fact, guns don't kill people all by themselves. So people kill people but they kill people far more efficiently when they have guns.
And of course there is the most common and frequent slippery slope and comparison to kitchen knives. Knives are irrelevent issues, they are akin to hammers (most of them) in that they have a distinctly different purpose and are pressed into service as a weapon, inherent in there limitations is that they rarely leave the hand. Only one person can be killed at a time and the time between killings can be rather long. The strongest difference is that knives can't kill more than a few feet away.
Guns can.
canndo
Well-Known Member
What is "hurt" what is "violent"? are we talking about unarmed violence as well? such as one person hitting another with their fists? No, I can't see any metric being used but the simple, easily identified metric of death.
canndo
Well-Known Member
That's funny - the statements don't even have anything to do with each other. The spoons may not have made that guy fat but the manufacturer of the food that he ate might very well have. So the gun manufacturer may not be an accomplice but the amunition manufacturer is.
I don't think that my post makes any sense.
desert dude
Well-Known Member
I agree. Did you have a stroke, or something?
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Yes. Fists count too. They are potentially deadly weapons. I should have the right to defend against them in the way that works for me. (Assuming I did not stand my ground in a brisk forward trajectory, to be sure.) cn
Mr Neutron
Well-Known Member
I'll bet that it's not.
I am not proposing anything, I am TELLING you. This is how it is.
There is no requirement to have a FFL or a license to own a machine gun. If you have a gun that wasn't registered before 1986 then you have a felony unless you are a class 3 dealer/government agent. The nontransferable part has to do with transferring to civilians. This is why they categorize machine guns into transferable and non-transferable. All registered machine guns made before 1986 are fully transferable and only require a $200 tax stamp along with a wait period. If you have to have a license, then it is your state law. In my state there are no such licensing. As the only one of us that actually owns class III items, I have to tell you that you are completely wrong and suggest that you might actually learn about things before you try to state them as fact. Buying a machine gun is, and was, the same as a silencer is today except that since 1986 no new machine guns may be registered.
You really should make the attempt to look up what I am saying instead of just saying 'nu uh'. Did you bother to look at that forum and people talking about their guns? Where did you get 150 as being list price for a thompson in 1934? You should probably compare post WW2 prices if you are going to compare prices.
Finally, a C&R does allow you to purchase a machine gun that is more than 50 years old without needing to go through a class 3 dealer. It saves you a transfer fee and paperwork wait by having one, but only for 50+ year old guns. We are rapidly getting to that point for most machine guns. The ATF even has a list of C&R eligible guns on its website. Do you actually find your facts somewhere or do you just make them up?
[h=2]How to Buy Machine Guns, Suppressors, Short-Barreled Shotguns, A.O.W.'s and Shrt Barreled Rifles, as Regulated by the ATF and the National Firearms Act, (NFA.)[/h]
- It is a common misconception that machine guns cannot be owned by law-abiding citizens. This comes from the creation of a variety of confusing laws that have made purchasing a full-auto gun more difficult than purchasing a "normal" gun. But, if you can comply with the law, you may qualify to own a machine gun.
First a brief history: In May of 1986, certain laws went into effect that made it illegal for 'civilians' to own fully automatic firearms that were manufactured AFTER THAT DATE. Many fully automatic weapons manufactured, registered and tax paid BEFORE MAY, 1986, MAY BE OWNED BY AND SOLD TO INDIVIDUALS. The full-auto guns that may be owned by individuals are called 'transferable'. Some states DO NOT allow machine gun ownership at all, no matter when the gun was made, but many states do.
To purchase a transferable machine gun, you must meet certain requirements (generally the same as when you purchase another gun, but with additional scrutiny), fill out special paperwork (called a 'form 4'), and pay a $200, one-time, transfer tax. Every time a machine gun is transferred, the $200 tax must be paid-- usually by the purchaser. The steps to take to purchase a transferable machine gun are:- Find a dealer locally who can assist you in all phases of the transfer. This should go beyond helping you fill out the paperwork: they should help you locate the gun if it isn't in stock and allow you to shoot the gun while your paperwork is being processed by the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms). It will usually take 4-6 weeks for the dealer to get the gun from another dealer if they don't already have it in stock (due to BATF paperwork delays).
- Get your fingerprints (either by a police dept. or by a qualified fingerprinter, two imprints are needed) and two passport sized pictures taken. These will be used to perform a comprehensive criminal background check on you.
- Have your local dealer help you fill out an "Application for Tax Paid Transfer And Registration Of Firearm" for, known as a "form 4".
- You must have the signature of the Chief Law Enforcement (CLEO) officer that has jurisdiction over the municipality in which you live on the form 4. This could be the City Chief or the County Sheriff, for example. This is usually not a problem-- in machine gun friendly states. The form 4, CLEO signature, 2 fingerprint cards, 2 pictures, and a $200 check (your one-time transfer tax) must all be mailed to the BATF and an approved tax stamp returned before you may take possession of the gun. This may take anywhere from 2 to 5 months.
- Order the item online, or phone us at (801)393-2474 ext. 303. Your order will be treated as a QUOTE, as we begin the process described below. Quote may be cancelled at any time with no charge or penalty. We may determine you do not qualify for ownership of an NFA (National Firearms Act, often referred to as Class 3) item.
- Identify an ATF Licensed Dealer (Machine Gun) dealer near you. Impact Guns has reputable dealers willing to do transfers on file all over the country. We will assist you in locating one near you. Put his shipping address on your online order. Note: Dont know a dealer who is licensed to hander your Machine Gun Transfer? First, ask us to help you locate one, or-- Tips: contact several regular dealers and ask them if they know of a class 3 dealer, or a good source for leads are local shooting clubs, firing ranges, NRA members, etc. Your local class 3 dealer will be doing the ATF Form 4 transfer to you. He will usually charge $50.00 to $100.00 for this service. Payment in full is necessary before transfer papers will be submitted to B.A.T.F.E. If you are paying by check, we will hold the item for you for a reasonable time while awaiting your payment. We reserve the right to reject an order for any reason.
- Have the dealer (or you) fax, e-mail, or mail his license F.F.L. (Federal Firearms License) and his S.O.T. (Special Occupational Tax License) to us. Use this Coversheet (Print out this form, fill in the blanks, and give it to your dealer as a faxable coversheet.)
[*]We will transfer the gun to your local Class III dealer on ATF Form 3. This transfer will usually take between 2-4 weeks, depending on backlog at the BATF and other circumstances. [*]We ship to your Class III dealer upon ATF Form-3 approval. We will notify you when this happens. [*]Inspect your gun (at your dealer) within 5 days. If you are unsatisfied, we will have the gun returned to us. Refunds are issued after the firearm is back in our possession, less shipping and handling charges. A restocking fee may apply. [*]If you are satisfied, then the gun is transferred on a ATF Form-4, from your local dealer to you. This may take approx 90 days+, again depending upon the BATF and the FBI background check that begins on your end, and with your local dealers help.[*]
NFA items are Special Order items. Payment must be made in full before transfer papers are submitted to B.A.T.F.E. Cancellations made before ATF papers arrive will incur a restocking fee.A. The National Firearms Act, Title 26, United States Code,INTERNAL REVENUE CODE
The process is complex, but we do pride ourselves on helping you through from start to finish. Notice: these instructions are abbreviated and are intended as a guide. We are not offering legal advice as to whether or not you are qualified for ownership of NFA regulated items. Note: Penalties for illegal or questionable possession of NFA items are severe. We may require more information from you, and you may have to provide addition information as required by your local authorities. The following guides and resources were used for these procedures and we recommend you become familiar with them:
B. ATF National Firearms Act Handbook