Over 26 dead in school shooting

canndo

Well-Known Member
It has to do also with utility. Lawn darts, bath salts, weight-training chems (steroids, no?) ... low utility; low cost to the ban.

On the other side take cars. Very high death/injury rate, but very high utility. Banning them is a thought limited to the greenest fringe.

Guns are in between. As long as there is so much crime (and varmints to be controlled on ranchland) , guns will have a high utility. I realize you don't believe the stats, but does that guarantee they're incorrect? cn

The fact is that it doesn't matter what the stats are, it doesn't matter what the utility is, nothing matters in this case but the absolute fact that we are as Desert Dude says, entitled to our firearms, there could be two shootings a day and it would not change this fact. THe only question is, how valuable is our second amendment? what is it worth to us as a nation? Sad as this is, I figure that our ability to keep and bear is worth lots and lots more children. Just acknowlege what is really going on. Quit with this "oh, it's a tool" or "we should blame that damn crazy person" or any of a hundred different arguments that avoid the crux of the situation. Our particular brand of freedom is very very expensive.
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
As are you to ignore the fact that is exactly why they died. In a culture without a guarantee that each peson is entitled to have a firearm, this likely would not have happened. Even if it had, we would not have had what? 3 in the last 6 months? or has it been 4, I've lost count.
There was a mass shooting in Germany a few months ago, and Germany does not have a second amendment equivalent.

Gun related violent crimes are are at forty year lows in the US. The US is not even in the top ten for per capita violent crime.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Britain has four times more violent crime per capita than the US. Britain is number one on the list with the most violent crime per capita. The US is not even in the top ten for per capita violent crime.


Oh REALLY? Desert dude? Britain has four times more violent crimes than the us per capita? How about resulting deaths? is that 4 times as high as well?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus

canndo

Well-Known Member
There was a mass shooting in Germany a few months ago, and Germany does not have a second amendment equivalent.

Gun related violent crimes are are at forty year lows in the US. The US is not even in the top ten for per capita violent crime.

A

A meaning one, right?
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
It appears from the news that the shooter also killed his mother before going to the school.

Do you honestly believe that a person capable of killing his mother, 18 kids and 7 adults and then killing himself would be concerned about whether the guns he used were legal or not?
where the guns legal?
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
As are you to ignore the fact that is exactly why they died. In a culture without a guarantee that each peson is entitled to have a firearm, this likely would not have happened. Even if it had, we would not have had what? 3 in the last 6 months? or has it been 4, I've lost count.
In Switzerland every adult male is part of the Swiss military reserve. Every one of them has a government issued, fully automatic, military grade assault rifle in their home.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
The fact is that it doesn't matter what the stats are, it doesn't matter what the utility is, nothing matters in this case but the absolute fact that we are as Desert Dude says, entitled to our firearms, there could be two shootings a day and it would not change this fact. THe only question is, how valuable is our second amendment? what is it worth to us as a nation? Sad as this is, I figure that our ability to keep and bear is worth lots and lots more children. Just acknowlege what is really going on. Quit with this "oh, it's a tool" or "we should blame that damn crazy person" or any of a hundred different arguments that avoid the crux of the situation. Our particular brand of freedom is very very expensive.
Nonetheless, the higher violent crime in Britain argues that that price might be buying us something right now, admittedly something in which you don't believe.
And while I know you despise it, the spectre of what happened in Germany less than one lifetime ago cannot be simply dismissed.
Think of gun rights as insurance: a steady price assumed now against a disaster in the future (Personal, like violent crime, or societal, like the brakes removed from wannabe revolutionaries.) You defended the price of the national health plan against all comers, and yet now you're complaining about the cost of this sort of insurance. Jmo. cn
 

FlyLikeAnEagle

Well-Known Member
Why do conservatives believe that outlawing guns will not prevent gun violence, but outlawing abortions will prevent abortions?
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
I looked it up. More murders in the USA, and if you remove the gun deaths from both sides, about even on murder by other means. cn

https://fleshisgrass.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/us-and-uk-murder-rate-and-weapon-updated/
Per capita rates of violent crime:



"The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
[h=3]According to the National Self Defense Survey conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, the rate of Defensive Gun Uses can be projected nationwide to approximately 2.5 million per year -- one Defensive Gun Use every 13 seconds.
Among 15.7% of gun defenders interviewed nationwide during The National Self Defense Survey, the defender believed that someone "almost certainly" would have died had the gun not been used for protection -- a life saved by a privately held gun about once every 1.3 minutes. (In another 14.2% cases, the defender believed someone "probably" would have died if the gun hadn't been used in defense.)
In 83.5% of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first -- disproving the myth that having a gun available for defense wouldn't make any difference.
In 91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker (and the gun defense wouldn't be called "newsworthy" by newspaper or TV news editors). In 64.2% of these gun-defense cases, the police learned of the defense, which means that the media could also find out and report on them if they chose to.
In 73.4% of these gun-defense incidents, the attacker was a stranger to the intended victim. (Defenses against a family member or intimate were rare -- well under 10%.) This disproves the myth that a gun kept for defense will most likely be used against a family member or someone you love.
In over half of these gun defense incidents, the defender was facing two or more attackers -- and three or more attackers in over a quarter of these cases. (No means of defense other than a firearm -- martial arts, pepper spray, or stun guns -- gives a potential victim a decent chance of getting away uninjured when facing multiple attackers.)
In 79.7% of these gun defenses, the defender used a concealable handgun. A quarter of the gun defenses occured in places away from the defender's home.[/h]
[h=4]Source: "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, in The Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, Volume 86, Number 1, Fall, 1995[/h]​
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Canndo, on a first read what you posted in bold seems to support the argument that carrying handguns reduces violent crime. What am I missing? cn
 

FlyLikeAnEagle

Well-Known Member
In Switzerland every adult male is part of the Swiss military reserve. Every one of them has a government issued, fully automatic, military grade assault rifle in their home.

And guess what happens if they find one of those guns on you unauthorized outside the home? Guess what happens if they catch someone carrying a handgun there? I've lived in Switzerland, they are not the gun crazy society right wingers here like to make people think they are.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Yeah, that must have been posted by bizarro-Canndo.
Actually no. I've seen canndo be one of the very few people in this forum who'll unflinchingly post stuff that goes against his apparent ideology. That garners him my respect. In this instance ... i don't know, so I'm asking.

I think we've established so far that, if the comparison between USA and Britain is otherwise fair: that guns are correlated with increased homicide, and with decreased overall violent crime. cn
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
And guess what happens if they find one of those guns on you unauthorized outside the home? Guess what happens if they catch someone carrying a handgun there? I've lived in Switzerland, they are not the gun crazy society right wingers here like to make people think they are.
You're also in deep kimchi if your gov't-issued packs of ammo are unsealed. Civilian firearms are rather restricted in Switzerland. cn
 
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