Astir Grow Led Panel Project...

[PSUAGRO.]

You have this so wrong. The photos and links you yourself provide prove the information. Red light, generally studied at the 660nm wavelength. When the phythochrome receive this light they convert it to Pfr and switch to the active state. Per the article you linked and your wiki link. This is the reason you want a larger ratio of Red (660nm) to Far Red (730nm). Using larger amounts of Far Red (730nm) will change the phythochrome to Pr and will shut off the response or cause inhibition.

You have still not shown a single reason, link, or topic post stating that 660nm is bad for plants. Which is the true nature of this discussion.

@PSUAGRO... yes same one!

^^ ha I figured.........you've been helping out those growers(lighting) over at 420m@g a while now..........probably giving the only truthful recommendations at that "sponsored" forum.....We had a little tiff last year which got me perma-banned was drinking allot back then; fun times!!

 

[Hosebomber]

Unfortunately I don't recall the "tiff" we had, nor in any way do I wish to get anyone banned form any forums. If I caused such a thing my sincere apologies. I understand the reasoning for sponsors. Bills don't pay themselves. If you recall I called out nearly all of the sponsors that where selling LED panels and a few of them even changed some of their statements and marketing strategies.

@ Stardustsailor, I'm a little confused by your last statement. You are using crappy leds, crappy drivers, no lenses, and low wattage and expecting to grow a quality product. That seems to be counter intuitive. My personal goal is to produce the the same or more product with 50% or less of the power consumed by HID lighting options. The quality of the drivers is generally the one place I don't skimp. I want to ensure that I do not have a driver failure when I'm not monitoring growth and should I ever mass produce my design that is the most likely point of failure. I am working with a new form of heat management that will increase cost slightly but reduces weight nearly in half and reduces temps. This new form of heat management can be mass produced quickly, in a variety of shapes and sizes, and has a great scale of economics. As for cheep LEDs, they have their place. I've actually found some "cheep" LEDs that perform on par or better than the "name-brand" version. Everlight is a great example of that.

 

[stardustsailor]

@ Stardustsailor, I'm a little confused by your last statement. You are using crappy leds, crappy drivers, no lenses, and low wattage and expecting to grow a quality product. That seems to be counter intuitive.

Well,not exactly...You can still grow a quality product in respectable /decent quantities....
Cheapos,are perfect for experimenting with....Very cost effective .. (overall power bought / price paid )

My personal goal is to produce the the same or more product with 50% or less of the power consumed by HID lighting options.

We share the same goal....I 'm almost there ,with cheapos..Just imagine with nice ,quality leds....

The quality of the drivers is generally the one place I don't skimp. I want to ensure that I do not have a driver failure when I'm not monitoring growth and should I ever mass produce my design that is the most likely point of failure.

Now,you speak words of wisdom....You 're totally right ,about that...
But cheap drivers ,are also easy to get once they get fried..
Anyway,a good driver is a good driver...

I am working with a new form of heat management that will increase cost slightly but reduces weight nearly in half and reduces temps. This new form of heat management can be mass produced quickly, in a variety of shapes and sizes, and has a great scale of economics.

Now curiosity kicks in.... Anything to do with 2-phase cooling ? (solid -liquid ,like Sodium cooling ? ) Ok...Keep it ,a secret if you wish...Main thing...Is it passive or active cooling ?

As for cheep LEDs, they have their place. I've actually found some "cheep" LEDs that perform on par or better than the "name-brand" version. Everlight is a great example of that.

Ohh,for that ,you have to give a link...

Those panels you see ,are still at experimental stage...
And yes,cause of really harsh economics,I couldn't afford to experiment with high-quality equipment....
If and when ,are going to be released (mainly for european market,as shipping 10 panels to US,is kinda of expensive....20 + kilos of aluminium!!! ....),they
will have pretty different quality specs...(better leds -thinking of Edison Opto -,better pcbs and better drivers....
Or they are going to be released in two " types" ..The cheap one and the ..guh...."Special Edition " ,expensive one....
Customer chooses which to buy ,depending on his/her economic abilities...

...
Another goal,my brother Hosebomber,is to make led growing , as widely available and as affordable as possible....
I think ,you'll agree to that...

 

[tenthirty]

I am working with a new form of heat management that will increase cost slightly but reduces weight nearly in half and reduces temps. This new form of heat management can be mass produced quickly, in a variety of shapes and sizes, and has a great scale of economics. As for cheep LEDs, they have their place. I've actually found some "cheep" LEDs that perform on par or better than the "name-brand" version. Everlight is a great example of that.

Please, do tell??????

 

[Hosebomber]

I won't give any exact information on my heat management system as of yet. To the best of my knowledge no other company in the grow light industry is using this tech. I would prefer to keep that information to myself for now. The system is passive for the moment but I am attempting to increase power output in a smaller package so it may include some form of active cooling at a later date (read fans).

http://www.everlight.com/ is Everlight's main website with all of the datasheets available there. There can be rather hard to source in smaller numbers.

Yes, I agree that making LED's initial cost lower and providing the results that I have been able to achieve will change the way the market sees lighting. Getting that cost down and maintaining results over a variety of strains is the tricky part.

The next question is how much tech is it worth putting into the panel to make it the most effective complete system without driving the price too high. I was working on multiple built-in controllers, timers, and intensity controllers, but the overall cost for each prototype became cost prohibitive.

 

[tolakra]

A little bit about overall power consumption and cost..
We have a plant growing for 1 month (18/6) and flowering for 2 months(12/12).
Let's make the assumption that 220W leds are as efficient as the 400w hps is

A' Grower 400w HPS

30days * 18hoursaday = 540 hours
60days * 12hoursaday = 720 hours
540 + 720 = 1260 hours
1260hours * 0,4Kw = 504kWh


B' Grower 10 * 22w LED panels

7days * 18hoursaday * 0,022Kw = 2,772 Kwh (1panel)
7days * 18hoursaday * 0,044Kw = 5,544 Kwh (2panels)
7days * 18hoursaday * 0,066Kw = 8,316 Kwh (3panels)
9days * 18hoursaday * 0,088Kw = 14,256 Kwh (4panels) (last week for veg)

7days * 12hoursaday * 0,132Kw = 11,088 Kwh (6panels)
7days * 12hoursaday * 0,176Kw = 14,784 Kwh (8panels)
7days * 12hoursaday * 0,220Kw = 18,480 Kwh (10panels)
9days * 12hoursaday * 0,220Kw = 23,760 Kwh

30days * 12hoursaday * 0,220Kw = 79,200 Kwh

in total 187kwh


A' grower consumed nearly 3 times the electricity that the B' grower did.
Even more if they were growing the plant for 4 months or more.

forget g/w
We must stop talking about led vs hps efficiency in terms of g/w
If we can achive the same yeild, then in terms of g/kwh we can triple our efficiency.

Yes but leds cost 500€ and not 200€ that hps,mh,ballast,reflector,cooltube cost.
Theese leds are a f***ng waste of money.

In my country the price is 0,10 €/kWh (more or less depending on the overall power consumption of the house)

504Kwh * 0,10 €/kWh = 50€
187Kwh * 0,10 €/kWh = 19€

If we think the benefits of leds vs hps (less heat -> less cooling needs, less fans etc)
the profit for each grow will be 35-40€
(not to mention that the hid bulbs need replacement every 3 grows, adding more to overall cost)

After some grows we still have the heatsinks and we can upgrade the leds with more efficient ones with low cost.
Since the leds in 2-3 years will be much more efficient than the current ones the efficiency (g/kwh) will be 4-5 times better than Hids

Welcome to the new led era

 

[stardustsailor]

@ Tolakra,well said...
gr / kWh ,is indeed ,a better unit ,for measuring grow efficiency....
Afterall,taking into account the " flexibility" of led illumination,is the ultimate ratio ...
Weight of yield (that can be a bit tricky..Branches/stems/water concentration/leaves/seeds,ect ) to total energy spend.. (And not plain Power..)


@ Hosebomber...

I won't give any exact information on my heat management system as of yet. To the best of my knowledge no other company in the grow light industry is using this tech. I would prefer to keep that information to myself for now. The system is passive for the moment but I am attempting to increase power output in a smaller package so it may include some form of active cooling at a later date (read fans).

I have to admit that I'm pretty intrigued ...
Anyway,I'll wish you,all the best ,with your cooling innovation...
" Best kept secrets,are hidden in common view..."

http://www.everlight.com/ is Everlight's main website with all of the datasheets available there. There can be rather hard to source in smaller numbers.

Great leds , but not so " easy "to utilise for DIY projects though ,if there isn't a Solder Reflow Oven around...

Yes, I agree that making LED's initial cost lower and providing the results that I have been able to achieve will change the way the market sees lighting. Getting that cost down and maintaining results over a variety of strains is the tricky part.

Not at all...For us ,that was the relatively easy part....

The next question is how much tech is it worth putting into the panel to make it the most effective complete system without driving the price too high. I was working on multiple built-in controllers, timers, and intensity controllers, but the overall cost for each prototype became cost prohibitive.

Well ,now I 've to agree with you...
But ...
Multiple built-in controllers, timers, intensity controllers and multi "colored-multi chip leds " ,can find their place,
into greenhouse utilisation...
And there's where the " big money ",lurks.
Equipping an average greenhouse with led technology ,
will profit the same or even more ,than equipping hundreds of small-scale growers..

 

[Hosebomber]

Great leds , but not so " easy "to utilise for DIY projects though ,if there isn't a Solder Reflow Oven around...

You would be surprised what a cheapskate DIY person can do with a little electronics knowledge and a $40 toaster oven from Wally World can do.

 

[stardustsailor]

9th day (still at 24/0 ..... ) for the youngs....




Reminder :

All three seedlings are from different plants.
Unknown parents.Probably totally different varieties.
They 've been given to me ,from a " seed collector "...

What is known for sure is that :
-They are " regular "...
-They originate from outdoor grown/cultivated plants..
-Random offspring.
-Genetic pool is quite large...( Landstrain of balkan peninsula ,but also , lots of "Dutch" pollen out there ,nowdays... )..
-Unknown date of production...( possible DNA damage,over time.. They were four,at start...).


Now...This seemingly ,idiot grow,will show one thing for sure....
How does a random plant ,underneath those panels...
I wish I had the chance to grow 10 or 20 different plants,so for the experiment to be more accurate..
Unfortunately , this plant is considered to be very,very,very dangerous for the modern,civilised world....( My @$$ .... )..
So,there is also the small parameter of personal physical freedom,concerning this type of experiment and using many plants...
If things ,go wrong...

Anyway...
Always trying to balance and not compromise...
Another small detail of the whole led thing,also....

 

[stardustsailor]

You would be surprised what a cheapskate DIY person can do with a little electronics knowledge and a $40 toaster oven from Wally World can do.

Yes..I've to admit that I've seen many DIY " recipes " ,all over the web...
But never attempted,to make one....
Does it work decently ,really ?

You 're givin' me a nice and gentle " push " ,now...
Toaster,eh ?

 

[PetFlora]

This is one thread where I think this will be well received...

Thinking more about the potential power gain using an actual Merkaba configuation, I don't think a flat pattern will unlock the total power of a 3 dimensional fixture designed like an actual Merkaba- that being 2 identical pyramids (4 sided bases) but integrated into each other and connected at the appropriate junctions. Each junction has one led at the tips (total of 5 leds per) or 10 per fixture

Think of these as frames (the space in between is where the lights mix) built with narrow rails/heat sinks (extremely light weight per finished fixture).

Assuming you are still with me, then there is the matter of which nm diodes go where. I think a combination of WHITES will be the best choice.

Thinking out loud- 1 CW at each apex + 4 NWs on one 4 sided base + 4 WWs on the other. Overall 'diameter' ~ softball size, depends on at which distance/proximity each 1-2w diode needs to be placed for best blend.

No way to know how much greater light energy will be created. If 2xs then one 10w fixture would be = 20w flat. BUT what it's more?

If I had the mad skills you guys have, I would build this. Hoping someone runs with it. Maybe a company like Edmund Scientific has the shape that can be adapted

 

[stardustsailor]

This is one thread where I think this will be well received...
Thinking more about the potential power gain of using an actual Merkaba configuation, I don't think a flat pattern will unlock the total power of a fixture designed like an actual Merkaba- that being 2 identical pyramids (4 sided base) but integrated into each other and connected at the appropriate junctions. Each has one led at the tips (total of 5 leds per) or 10 per fixture

Great idea,PetFlora...
Guod ,you 've set a big fire ,for that matter..(Amongst others...Keep up the great work..)

Think of these as frames built with narrow rails/heat sinks (extreme light weight per finished fixture). Assuming you are still with me, then there is the matter of which nm diodes go where. I think a combination of WHITES will be the best choice.

It gets even better...

Thinking out loud- 1 CW at each apex + 4 NWs on one 4 sided base + 4 WWs on the other. Overall 'diameter' ~ softball size, depends on at which distance/proximity each 1-2w diode needs to be placed for best blend.
No way to know how much greater light energy will be created. If 2xs then one 10w fixture would be = 20w flat.
If I had the mad skills you guys have, I would build this. Hoping someone runs with it..

Well ,as for led choice...
Simply put ...
(From my perspective,which is always fluid ...)
-Warm Whites ( the lower CT ,the better.... )
- Cool Whites (possibly the colder ones are better ...7000-10.000 K )
-Few reds 620-640 nm

Ideal " growth white light mix " ,I trust (up till now) to be ideal ,is analysed :

Blue 400-499 nm ,with peak power covering the 440-470 range:

-Around 15%,is ideal in general...
-Max 20% ,specially in total high irradiances.
-Avoid too much blue at low irradiances..
-Up to 25% for added quality ,but with varying quantitative yield losses..


Green 500-599 nm ,with peak power covering the 570-599 nm range (yellows ):

-Around 30% is ideal, generally..
-Max 40 % ,specially high total irradiances .Photo-protective pigments,such as Anthocyanins and other flavonoids,absorb green/yellow photons.-They reflect purple/blue ,respectively ...
-Same for tree-style grows or at dense leaf canopies ...
Older/lower leaves,almost use more efficiently green photons than red ones..
-Peak power ,always at longer wl range of the " band " ....
Probably ,avoiding shorter green wls (500-560 nm ) ,plants minimise Shade Avoidance Syndrome ",close to small amount needed ,as 'pressure' ,for plant to produce more total leaf canopy surface area.=>more assimilates stored + increased photosynthetic surface,thus more light harvested => bigger yields)

Red 600-699 nm ,with peak power covering the 600-640 nm range :

-45%-50 % is adequate,generally..
-Max 60 % for low total irradiances ...
-Concerning SD C3 plants ,too much activation of Phytochrome ( Pfr state ) with 650-680 nm radiation ,while it might have some positive effects during vegetative stage through photomorphogenesis and also maintain the ratio ChA / ChB at high levels,during flowering can cause adverse effects.
So ,preferably ,red radiation at 650-680 nm , acting strongly at Phytochrome,transforming it into Pfr ,should be avoided,
in some cases,especially during flowering.

Far red 700-750 nm ,sloping to almost zero R.Power , as wl increases :
-Max 2%-5% ...
-In some cases ,more FR can accelerate flowering & maturing-and internodal elongation ,along with-resulting, yes ,in heavy flowering but with short overall duration.
But less than needed,is worse...
Tricky to establish a general "sweet " or " golden " percentage ,to balance duration and flowering rate.
-Every variety / " strain " /cultivar , seems that has it's own specific ideal minimal amount of FR light,needed so to flower properly and efficiently...
-Though , around 3% FR ,seems to cover most of plants...
So 3% FR ,probably, is the minimum needed....

Ideally ?
Somethin' like that...
Blue 20 % -Green(yellows ) 27 % -Reds 50 % -FR 3 %

Now...

Useful additional are , the :
-Blues'
-Neutral whites' (CT that of daylight ca. 5500° K )

Possible to have a value ,regarding quality:
-Violets/UVas' /UVbs'

And some " science fiction "....(Not far from becoming a reality,though.. )
-The use of FR leds solely ,in a Short Day plant ,can do ..miracles, considering flower/fruiting final yields...
But the utilisation ,up till now,is kinda tricky and way too ...."touchy" ,regarding extreme photomorphogenesis alterations..

 

[PetFlora]

Thanks SDS

As I think on this, the fly in the ointment is the diodes at each junction are directional, where the light at each point should be globe like with 360* light disbursion. A small luster of diodes perhaps... would 1/2w or 1/4w diodes packed into a ball shape work?

 

[stardustsailor]

Thanks SDS

As I think on this, the fly in the ointment is the diodes at each junction are directional, where the light at each point should be globe like with 360* light disbursion. A small luster of diodes perhaps... would 1/2w or 1/4w diodes packed into a ball shape work?

Ohhh,yes....It's called " multi-chip led "....
(LedEngin & Cree...Forget the monstrous asians of 10 Watts or more...)

4 to 6 chips at @350 mA ,is just perfect...
With angles varying from 90° up to 150°..

Dreaming a " 4 channel " multichip led ,consisting of :
1 x 640 nm , 3 x WW 2500° K , 1 x blue 460-470 nm, 2 x CW 7000°-9000° K....
Lucky seven...

 

[PetFlora]

An Erector Set would be a simple way to R & D this. Also, a chrome surface globe in the center to reflect light

Plus check this out http://www.scientificsonline.com/magnetic-light-mine-pro.html

 

[ganja 2]

4th week flowering.. things going well i guess. blueberry has reached 113 cm. we removed the wr male from the room. the crossing has been done.

the 2 white russians under the panels are doing fine.. their buds are fullfiling nicely.. they stand at 52 cm...

and both of them together...

 

[stardustsailor]

So...With every panel at 22 Watt approx. (Power of driver not included-Have to get a Watt-meter... ) ,Ganja ,you 're growing 2 white russian females..
4th week of flowering.

No matter to what is being supported at this whole thread about Red 660-680 ,about white leds,about lenses or whatever " unearthy " theory and assumption....
For what is worth...
Those are ,once again , " common " 1 Watt chip leds of the 8mm " Seoul " type/format ..
They cost about 0.30 $ each ,when bought at right places,with a bit of e-mailing back'n'forth...
Those panels are built with maximum light coverage in mind.They are ment to be close to canopy ,no further than about 30 cm ( 1' ).
They are not a single light source thus having great flexibility at placing , spectral emission & total / partial irradiation .
They lack lenses ,thus they emit light at wide angle ,eliminating shaded parts.
Light gets more diffused and thus it has rather great spectral uniformity .
Heat is passive dissipated through massive heatsink,
ensuring totally quite operation with no moving parts or extra energy spent ,for cooling.
Driver,pcb & led quality is the average asian one...
Binning is out of the question...
Differences in power,VF and color of light ,may have quite big ,random variations...
The leds are mainly whites ( YAG phosphor ) .
Some reds "630",added..
Nothing else from "super-duper-photosynthetic -super -charged " bad " cherry " or " hyper " reds...
Or pinkish / magenta / bluish combos...

Really crazy design ,don't you agree ?

But anyway ...
For 132 mere ,cheapo led Watts ,plants do not seem so bad...
Do they ?

" There's always ,another way... "
..
@Ganja2
+1000.
..Great work ,brother...

 

[reactiv8ion]

@sailor, im doing the 8cw, 12ww, 4r630 panel with 3w leds. what led driver do you recommend?

 

[budballer]

Woah, justing flipping through the posts there is a ton of good info in this thread. I'm gonna have to read post by post when i get the time. Amazes me that your'e all coming to the conclusion that using mostly white LED's is the best LED set up. After all of the blue/red marketing... Not sure i can believe it

 

[tenthirty]

There are a couple of observations I can make.
Under Pro-Grows, the plants grow pretty well, compared to HPS.
Under NW XM-L's with some 660nm rebels, the plants seem happier and healthier than either the HPS or Pro-Grows.

Over time I will be replacing 400w of Pro-Grow with 260w more or less of mainly white HML and get better results.