Alt0's Grow (1st timer)
- Thread starter Alto
- Start date
asf2j
Well-Known Member
hey alto, later on tonight im going to put together a sort of biology research paper for you on the biochemistry and glucose neogenesis that goes on in our ladies. knowledge of biochemistry, even if not fully understood, can help you steer clear of small problems caused by accidental ignorance, and hopefully up yield.
asf2j
Well-Known Member
i hope im not coming off as an ass. i know i seem cocky now posting this worthless science on your journal thread, if you dont want it here you can delete....
well as i promised, here is a quick shit list of most of the plant stuff ive been studying for the past couple of years.
hopefully you can apply some of this to your ladies to get some more yield.
here goes.
first off, the fun-damentals. imagine a chloroplast as a stack of pancakes. light hits a nitrogen-magnesium compound in the chloroplast allowing for the transfer of an "excited electron" said electron allows ultimately for the production of NADPH and ATP (the "currency" if you will for ALL biochemical pathways animal and plant.) these AdenoseneTriPhosphate molecules enter into the Calvin Cycle where ALL plants use ATP to litterally fix co2 into G3P(a plant sugar) which can later be converted into glucose and ultimately broken down for more atp. --- so my friend, this is how a plant gets energy. this is called photo respiration having two cycles a light cycle(photocynthesis) and a dark cycle(the Calvin Cycle) o2 is a bi product of photosynthesis and is used within the mitochondria of all plant cells to produce even more ATP. so contrary to popular belief, oxygen is a vital nutrient to plants. water in in photosynthesis is used purely as a system of electron transport for the production of ATP, no water no atp no energy, not a happy ganja plant...
next up, a discussion of plant tissue. really the only important two are meristematic tissue and parenchyma tissue. meristematic tissue is totipotent and undifferentiated. the most notable place to find it is at the tip of roots- where actual "growth" occurs in the roots. and at the tip of stems.
parenchyma tissue is totipotent as well as is the reason why we can take clones. parenchyma exposed to certain hormones will react in vastly different ways.
root discussion- there are three zones to roots. at the very tip of the root is meristematic tissue that is constantly dividing, note that no absorption happens at the zone of division. the next couple of centemeters is the zone of elongation, by means of the plant hormone Auxin, cell walls stretch allowing for growth. the last is the zone of maturation this is the area of a root where root hairs develop and mycorhizal fungi are incorporated in the root system. the zone of maturation is also where absorption takes place, purely through root hairs, not the tap root.
next up- the leaf. the main layers.
1. the cuticle- allows for water conservation and protection.
2. pallisade mesophyll. this is where all of the chloroplasts are located, packed together like a stack of flapjacks(pancakes).
3. spongy mesophyll- less dense than pallisade, this is where gas exchange takes place so that chloroplast can release oxygen and can receive more co2 for glucose fixation in the Calvin cycle. - the most important part of the leaf, gas exchange is regulated by stomata. openings in the underside of the leaf that are opened and closed by guard cells. when water levels are high, stomata open. when it is day, stomata are forced opened due to a rise in internal gas pressure in spongy mesophyll(o2 gas builds as a product of photosynthesis) when it is night, hormones regulated by phototropins stimulate stomata to close, allowing o2 to build for use in mitichondria. hormones are coming up dont worry.
nutrient transport. xylem transports water- always from root to shoot.
phloem transports sugar, from source to sink, that means during photosynthesis sugar is transported from leaf to root. when the plant is not actively producing sugar goes from root to leaf, or in our case BUDSSSSS!!
this next bit is lengthy but worth a glance. plant nutrients and exactly what they do. i'd read it, a few are intersting.
1.o2, - function- cellular respiration, electron transport, component of nearly all organic compoints - not enough= cell death by suffocation
2. co2- the substrate for photosynthesis major component of organic compounds- celldeath starvation
3. h2o- establishment of electrochemical gradients, electron transport- cell death dessication
4.no3 nh4, component of nucleic acids, proteins, hormones, enzymes- chlorosis(yellowing of leaves)
5. potassium(k)- cofactor for enzymes necessary for osmotic adjustment of cells required for synthesis of organic molecules. - chlorosis at margins of leaves, weak stems and shortened internodes.
6. calcium- regulatory role in cell wall structure, membrances and controls movement of hormone comunication via transduction.- necrosis of meristematic tissue, deformation in young leaves.
7. magnesium- major chlorophyll component activates many enzymes- chlorosis in leaf veins, premature leaf dropping.
8. phosphorus- the main component in ATP- dark green leaves with small spots of necrosis
9. sulfur- component in proteins and enzymes- stunted growth, chlorosis
the rest are considered micronutrients and not needed in as large concentrations as the above.
10. chlorine- needed in the water splitting step of photosynthesis- wilting, chlorosis, necrosis and a bronze coloration
11. iron- necessary for the synthesis of new chloroplasts and the cytochromes that absorb specific wavelengths of light- chlorosis of veins in young leaves
12. manganese- electron transfer- spotted necrosis in leaves near veins
13. zinc- used in the synthesis of the hormone Auxin- distorted leaf formation
there are a few more but they really arent that important, you probably wont notice the symptoms of a deficiency.
all of the above 13 nutrients follow the format
nutrient-function-defficiency results in "x"
an intersting side note, nitrogen can be fixed into plants with mycorhizal fungi at the roots in soil, specific fungi for specific plants, i have no clue what goes with cannabis, but im sure with research you could find out.
here is one of the big questions, Why does blue light(higher kelvin ratings) stimulate vegitative growth where as red light (lower kelvin ratings) stimulate sexing and flowering. wellll. heres the answer, and just as you might have thought. the angle of the sun through the seasons provide plants with the spectrums, blue in the summer, red towards the winter. phototropins are proteins in the plant that react to specific wavelengths of light. when the proteins are struck with light, they stimulate the producition of different hormones, obviously hormones for vegetative growth are different from budding hormones.
and here ladies and gentlemen is the reason for using 18/6 as opposed to 24/0
and why 12/12 stimulates flowering.
if you understood all of this so far, then it is safe to assume that you know about day and night and circadian rhythms and the bodies biological clock, well. plants have them too.
there is such thing as a time keeping protein and repressor proteins. in plants this protein is sensitive to light on the 24 hour cycle of light to dark, this protein in plants is called TOC, here is the latest information on it. at dawn repressor genes are activated by light witch over the course of the day slows the production of TOC and therefore decreases concentration, at night when there is no light to produce repressors, TOC levels rise and are circulated through the plant, especially near meristematic tissue where ALL plant growht occurs. it is this oscillation of TOC and repressors over the 18/6 cycle that keep hormones in regulation for vegetative growth.
during the 12/12 cycle- TOC and its repressors are at a certain chemical equilibrium(keep in mind the concentration and therefore times in cycle are different for all plants, cannabis seems to like 12/12 for its hormone equilibrium for flowering)
anyways 12/12 TOC levels stimulate the production of flowering hormones- confused yet, hormones are coming up.
just like an athlete using steroids, never using your god given testosterone means you'll have stunted testosterone production when you kick the steroids.
same in plants, if you leave it on 24/0 cycle, youll never achieve the proper hormone regulation for flowering, well you will, just not nearly as much as if you had done it the way natures intends, so remember, light and dark, cycles of TOC
this next bit is weird but true, ive done the test in my graduate labs, Plants know when you touch them. this is why if you keep a gentle fan on your stems, they will get thicker to resist damage and movement as well as keep the plant bushier and inhibit it from growing to tall.
here is the most important part, HORMONES. i will discuss them after i list them and there functions.
1. Auxin- Fnction- involved in cell elongation and phototropism(detection of light), induces ethylene poroduction.
2. gibberellins- promote stem growth, seed germination, and the development of big beautiful flowers.
3. cytokinis- promote cell division in the presence of auxin, as well as chloroplast development, also delay the aging process.
4. abscisic acid- limits meristematic bud growth and inhibits seed germination, induces closure of stomata in response to water stress.
5. ethylene- involved in fruit ripening and flowering- the most interesting and useful hormone
6. systemin- triggers plant defense to insects.
alright now for some application an explanation
1. auxin, makes cell walls in stems stretchy, auxins always gather away from light, this is the reason a plant bends towards light. think about it. the side away from the light gets stretchy so the plant droops towards the light, kind of genious if you ask me.
2. gibberellins- have you ever seen a giant strawberry or wander why if you grow a water mellon its small, not like the ones at the store. well, plants sprayed with gibberellins grow HUGE fruits and flowers. the bigger the flower, the bigger the ovary, the bigger the bud, all of that means lots of gibberellin hormone.
3. cytokinins- sorry i dont know alot about these- lol
4. abscisic acid- the reasons why we soak seeds to get them to germinate is that soaking them leaches out abscisic acid which inhibits germination.
5. ethylene- this hormone is awesome, it is a gas, have you ever seen a green banana that wasnt ripe, the reason it turns yellow is that ethylene gas(the hormone) is produced in the fruit, its also produced in the plant not just the fruit. what cool about it is that its production grows exepenetially and ripens the fruit faster and faster. when i get my pot growing i plan on introducing gibberellins and ethylene gas while it is flowering, excess of these hormones should mean quicker, bigger, bad ass buds, i wouldnt try it yet though alto, i dont want to be responsible for ruining your crop, let me experiment first, lol
6. systemin- is produced in damaged cells, when a critter eats a leaf, damaged cells produce systemin which acts as a natural pesticide, unfortunately many pests have evolved and are not affected by it. obviously that is why we have pesticides.
and that ladies and gentlemen is the most basic of the basics in understanding why plants do what they do, i hope many of you can use this to your benefit in the understanding of natures primary organic producers.
well as i promised, here is a quick shit list of most of the plant stuff ive been studying for the past couple of years.
hopefully you can apply some of this to your ladies to get some more yield.
here goes.
first off, the fun-damentals. imagine a chloroplast as a stack of pancakes. light hits a nitrogen-magnesium compound in the chloroplast allowing for the transfer of an "excited electron" said electron allows ultimately for the production of NADPH and ATP (the "currency" if you will for ALL biochemical pathways animal and plant.) these AdenoseneTriPhosphate molecules enter into the Calvin Cycle where ALL plants use ATP to litterally fix co2 into G3P(a plant sugar) which can later be converted into glucose and ultimately broken down for more atp. --- so my friend, this is how a plant gets energy. this is called photo respiration having two cycles a light cycle(photocynthesis) and a dark cycle(the Calvin Cycle) o2 is a bi product of photosynthesis and is used within the mitochondria of all plant cells to produce even more ATP. so contrary to popular belief, oxygen is a vital nutrient to plants. water in in photosynthesis is used purely as a system of electron transport for the production of ATP, no water no atp no energy, not a happy ganja plant...
next up, a discussion of plant tissue. really the only important two are meristematic tissue and parenchyma tissue. meristematic tissue is totipotent and undifferentiated. the most notable place to find it is at the tip of roots- where actual "growth" occurs in the roots. and at the tip of stems.
parenchyma tissue is totipotent as well as is the reason why we can take clones. parenchyma exposed to certain hormones will react in vastly different ways.
root discussion- there are three zones to roots. at the very tip of the root is meristematic tissue that is constantly dividing, note that no absorption happens at the zone of division. the next couple of centemeters is the zone of elongation, by means of the plant hormone Auxin, cell walls stretch allowing for growth. the last is the zone of maturation this is the area of a root where root hairs develop and mycorhizal fungi are incorporated in the root system. the zone of maturation is also where absorption takes place, purely through root hairs, not the tap root.
next up- the leaf. the main layers.
1. the cuticle- allows for water conservation and protection.
2. pallisade mesophyll. this is where all of the chloroplasts are located, packed together like a stack of flapjacks(pancakes).
3. spongy mesophyll- less dense than pallisade, this is where gas exchange takes place so that chloroplast can release oxygen and can receive more co2 for glucose fixation in the Calvin cycle. - the most important part of the leaf, gas exchange is regulated by stomata. openings in the underside of the leaf that are opened and closed by guard cells. when water levels are high, stomata open. when it is day, stomata are forced opened due to a rise in internal gas pressure in spongy mesophyll(o2 gas builds as a product of photosynthesis) when it is night, hormones regulated by phototropins stimulate stomata to close, allowing o2 to build for use in mitichondria. hormones are coming up dont worry.
nutrient transport. xylem transports water- always from root to shoot.
phloem transports sugar, from source to sink, that means during photosynthesis sugar is transported from leaf to root. when the plant is not actively producing sugar goes from root to leaf, or in our case BUDSSSSS!!
this next bit is lengthy but worth a glance. plant nutrients and exactly what they do. i'd read it, a few are intersting.
1.o2, - function- cellular respiration, electron transport, component of nearly all organic compoints - not enough= cell death by suffocation
2. co2- the substrate for photosynthesis major component of organic compounds- celldeath starvation
3. h2o- establishment of electrochemical gradients, electron transport- cell death dessication
4.no3 nh4, component of nucleic acids, proteins, hormones, enzymes- chlorosis(yellowing of leaves)
5. potassium(k)- cofactor for enzymes necessary for osmotic adjustment of cells required for synthesis of organic molecules. - chlorosis at margins of leaves, weak stems and shortened internodes.
6. calcium- regulatory role in cell wall structure, membrances and controls movement of hormone comunication via transduction.- necrosis of meristematic tissue, deformation in young leaves.
7. magnesium- major chlorophyll component activates many enzymes- chlorosis in leaf veins, premature leaf dropping.
8. phosphorus- the main component in ATP- dark green leaves with small spots of necrosis
9. sulfur- component in proteins and enzymes- stunted growth, chlorosis
the rest are considered micronutrients and not needed in as large concentrations as the above.
10. chlorine- needed in the water splitting step of photosynthesis- wilting, chlorosis, necrosis and a bronze coloration
11. iron- necessary for the synthesis of new chloroplasts and the cytochromes that absorb specific wavelengths of light- chlorosis of veins in young leaves
12. manganese- electron transfer- spotted necrosis in leaves near veins
13. zinc- used in the synthesis of the hormone Auxin- distorted leaf formation
there are a few more but they really arent that important, you probably wont notice the symptoms of a deficiency.
all of the above 13 nutrients follow the format
nutrient-function-defficiency results in "x"
an intersting side note, nitrogen can be fixed into plants with mycorhizal fungi at the roots in soil, specific fungi for specific plants, i have no clue what goes with cannabis, but im sure with research you could find out.
here is one of the big questions, Why does blue light(higher kelvin ratings) stimulate vegitative growth where as red light (lower kelvin ratings) stimulate sexing and flowering. wellll. heres the answer, and just as you might have thought. the angle of the sun through the seasons provide plants with the spectrums, blue in the summer, red towards the winter. phototropins are proteins in the plant that react to specific wavelengths of light. when the proteins are struck with light, they stimulate the producition of different hormones, obviously hormones for vegetative growth are different from budding hormones.
and here ladies and gentlemen is the reason for using 18/6 as opposed to 24/0
and why 12/12 stimulates flowering.
if you understood all of this so far, then it is safe to assume that you know about day and night and circadian rhythms and the bodies biological clock, well. plants have them too.
there is such thing as a time keeping protein and repressor proteins. in plants this protein is sensitive to light on the 24 hour cycle of light to dark, this protein in plants is called TOC, here is the latest information on it. at dawn repressor genes are activated by light witch over the course of the day slows the production of TOC and therefore decreases concentration, at night when there is no light to produce repressors, TOC levels rise and are circulated through the plant, especially near meristematic tissue where ALL plant growht occurs. it is this oscillation of TOC and repressors over the 18/6 cycle that keep hormones in regulation for vegetative growth.
during the 12/12 cycle- TOC and its repressors are at a certain chemical equilibrium(keep in mind the concentration and therefore times in cycle are different for all plants, cannabis seems to like 12/12 for its hormone equilibrium for flowering)
anyways 12/12 TOC levels stimulate the production of flowering hormones- confused yet, hormones are coming up.
just like an athlete using steroids, never using your god given testosterone means you'll have stunted testosterone production when you kick the steroids.
same in plants, if you leave it on 24/0 cycle, youll never achieve the proper hormone regulation for flowering, well you will, just not nearly as much as if you had done it the way natures intends, so remember, light and dark, cycles of TOC
this next bit is weird but true, ive done the test in my graduate labs, Plants know when you touch them. this is why if you keep a gentle fan on your stems, they will get thicker to resist damage and movement as well as keep the plant bushier and inhibit it from growing to tall.
here is the most important part, HORMONES. i will discuss them after i list them and there functions.
1. Auxin- Fnction- involved in cell elongation and phototropism(detection of light), induces ethylene poroduction.
2. gibberellins- promote stem growth, seed germination, and the development of big beautiful flowers.
3. cytokinis- promote cell division in the presence of auxin, as well as chloroplast development, also delay the aging process.
4. abscisic acid- limits meristematic bud growth and inhibits seed germination, induces closure of stomata in response to water stress.
5. ethylene- involved in fruit ripening and flowering- the most interesting and useful hormone
6. systemin- triggers plant defense to insects.
alright now for some application an explanation
1. auxin, makes cell walls in stems stretchy, auxins always gather away from light, this is the reason a plant bends towards light. think about it. the side away from the light gets stretchy so the plant droops towards the light, kind of genious if you ask me.
2. gibberellins- have you ever seen a giant strawberry or wander why if you grow a water mellon its small, not like the ones at the store. well, plants sprayed with gibberellins grow HUGE fruits and flowers. the bigger the flower, the bigger the ovary, the bigger the bud, all of that means lots of gibberellin hormone.
3. cytokinins- sorry i dont know alot about these- lol
4. abscisic acid- the reasons why we soak seeds to get them to germinate is that soaking them leaches out abscisic acid which inhibits germination.
5. ethylene- this hormone is awesome, it is a gas, have you ever seen a green banana that wasnt ripe, the reason it turns yellow is that ethylene gas(the hormone) is produced in the fruit, its also produced in the plant not just the fruit. what cool about it is that its production grows exepenetially and ripens the fruit faster and faster. when i get my pot growing i plan on introducing gibberellins and ethylene gas while it is flowering, excess of these hormones should mean quicker, bigger, bad ass buds, i wouldnt try it yet though alto, i dont want to be responsible for ruining your crop, let me experiment first, lol
6. systemin- is produced in damaged cells, when a critter eats a leaf, damaged cells produce systemin which acts as a natural pesticide, unfortunately many pests have evolved and are not affected by it. obviously that is why we have pesticides.
and that ladies and gentlemen is the most basic of the basics in understanding why plants do what they do, i hope many of you can use this to your benefit in the understanding of natures primary organic producers.
asf2j
Well-Known Member
oh damn, sorry for taking up such a huge space, i was just feeling so cocky from hearing someone interested in the science of plants, feel free to spam my new journal with useless crap if you want vindication, happy grow man.
peace.
ps, i had to go back through and edit a few things.
peace.
ps, i had to go back through and edit a few things.
Alto
Well-Known Member
No problem I started into this because of a love for growing things and the end result being a little more than a tomato. lol
besides its a part of one page in a long journal. Thanks for the information I look at things a little differently now than I did, and thats a good thing.
Thanks GGgrassgirl said:Looking great Alto
Your grow is looking great as well. Now quit cheating nuggets or there won't be any left when its real good. lol.
Alto
Well-Known Member
Date: 4/29 –6:18am
Room Conditions:
LIGHTS (400W MH) ON 18/6 (off at 10am on again at 4pm)
Distance from top of Growing Medium 24"
Temperature - 73F
Humidity - 60%
Room/Light vent running-YES(timed on/off every 30 mins)
Small room fan (on high, facing plants, timed off / on every 30 mins)
Water Conditions:
Reservoir Aeration running-YES
Temperature – 65F
PH – 5.6
PPM – 1090
Nutrient Solution:2 GAL.
25.0ML Flora Nova GROW™
2.0ML Floralicious Plus™
20.0ML FLORABLEND ™Vegan Compost Tea
Notes:
Changed Lights to 18/6 (see THIS it explains why)
Added Mylar to lower part of room around plants for better light reflection
No2 looks worse, the next set of leaves are also starting to show signs of drying out while still new growth both the very top leaves
and the undergrowth from near leaf stems is very fresh looking and show no drying at all.
The new leaf sets are smaller than I would expect, given the rate it was growing before it started to show the drying symptoms.
No2 is still isolated from the others in its own reservoir which is swapped from the main reservoir each morning.
I am doing 2 things a bit differently however, due to the concern of this becoming more prevalent among my other plants.
1- I am reducing the concentration of nutrients in my foliar spray
2- I am purchasing a wetting agent designed for agriculture rather than use dish soap.
(even though Dawn is a pretty mild detergent and was only used in very small quantity (a drip into the spray bottle)
I will be using something designed for plants from now on, starting next spray due on this coming Sunday.
If No2 does not make it, I will always wonder what happened to her (as I am sure she will become a girl unless this stress changed that)
It will allow me to drop the added reservoir, which is OK by me.
It will cut down on plant number allowing me to create an additional clone while remaining under 10 plants (legal issues)
I still would hate to see her go being I am certain she is of a different strain than the rest.
Moving on...
The others are ALL still looking very lush and growing at a very good rate.
I want to again thank asf2j for the biology lesson. Some things I knew, some I just learned here at rui, and others I had no idea about.
The text supplied put it all into an easy to follow and search format that I will use during this entire grow and beyond.
(More rep when I am able to friend)
I also want to thank the others that have been following along with me so far,
as the sense of partnership in this goes a long way in keeping my excitement levels up.
Thanks for the support everyone.
OK that’s today’s update, keep growing friends and see you later on
IMAGES : day 19
1-7 plants No1 to No7
8- new timers set-up
9- overview of kids in op
Attachments
cheetah2007
Well-Known Member
hey man, just curious - how did you get a mh light in tibet?!? lol just jokin' . they looks healthy btw Cheers!!! Cheetah
Cheers!!! Cheetah
Alto
Well-Known Member
Man if only I still had the cash I needed to put out for all those Sherpas to carry that thing all the way here!
(on a side note they seemed to enjoy looking at themselves in the mylar)
It is actually an HPS with a conversion bulb for veg. I have a super HPS bulb for later down the line.
No way was I going through that again to get a second light up here for flowering!
Thanks for stopping in
Cant wait till those bitches are huge.
Alto
Well-Known Member
Everything is against the law in Tibet these days.
No2 thanks you for your support.
Alto
Well-Known Member
Date: 4/30 –7:18am Room Conditions:
LIGHTS (400W MH) ON 18/6
Distance from top of Growing Medium 24"
Temperature - 70F
Humidity - 62%
Room/Light vent running-YES(on just after lights come on, off just before lights go off)
Small room fan (on low, facing plants, timed off / on every 30 mins)
Water Conditions:
Reservoir Aeration running-YES
Temperature – 64F
PH – 5.8
PPM – 0994
Nutrient Solution:2 GAL.
25.0ML Flora Nova GROW™
2.0ML Floralicious Plus™
20.0ML FLORABLEND ™Vegan Compost Tea
Notes:
Hand Swapped Nute Solution from Main reservoir and 2nd reservoir
I do this every day
No2 is worse but also better, lol
Let me explain…
I know that the damage was done when I sprayed. The other plants seemed to love the nutes but No2 and No5 both had a somewhat adverse reaction, namely they burned.
The damage on No2 for example is limited to the broad parts of the leaves on the lower fan leaf [img8]
Then the ends of the next set [img9]
Finally the tips of the final leaf set [img10]
New growth is not affected [img11] other than without their sugar factories running at max they are stunted.
I am sure they will catch up eventually but I intend to go ahead with the feeding schedule as planned and just be a LOT more careful when foliar feeding those plants.
Another note: the two that were affected are different than the others in that their leaves are a lot thinner and longer.
Maybe just that type of strain is more sensitive to this?
OK the better part is...they are no longer showing any further signs of the damage spreading.
New growth is coming in fine (undamaged) and altho slow is healthy.
Gonna just ride this out with these two and see what happens.
IMAGES
1/7- day 20 6:00(AM)
8- No2 closeup of damage
9- No2 closeup of leaf
10- No2 leaf tips
11- No2 closeup of new growth
12- closeup of single fan leaf damage
Attachments
Alto
Well-Known Member
My thoughts exactly!
They are quite a bit bigger than I expected at first.grassgirl said:Yes they're gonna be monsters, can't wait to see them dripping in bud
Bottom leaves on No3 and No4 are huge.
Main stalk on a lot of them has gotten all woody and thick as well.
Yes No2 looks like she is hurtin' for certain.
but I think she will be OK now that I don't allow salts from ferts dry on her anymore, Duoh!
Thanks for the support.