Obama's Pre-crime indefinite preventive detention for future crimes

deprave

New Member
Marxist savages that were surely deserving of death, were you there? Again, History is told by the winners.

I choose to remain neutral, that’s the difference, you just seem to believe everything your told. There is more than one side to every story. I just don't believe people are 'animals' or savages, sure sometimes yes, but entire races, groups, and cultures of people. Don't buy it, especially from a government, an official, or anyone with an agenda, a motive separate from humanity. Including Obama, Rachael Maddow, Mitt Romney, Glen Beck...etc

Its quite appauling to be that an alleged libertarian has such an extraordinary amount of faith in government and little respect for civil liberties. You are clearly NOT a libertarian.

again you argue from rhetorical fallacy.

Rachel Maddow is quite bangable, but is completely ignorant of anything which might disrupt her perfectly ordered imaginary world where liberal = good and anybody who disagrees with any portion of the progressive agenda = PURE EVIL. she smirks and smugly pontificates from her position in a TV studio with all the implicit Appeal To Authority confidence of a televangelist selling magical prayer hankies. every syllable that falls from her admittredly well formed lips is sophistry, based in stupidity and a poltiucal agenda where compromise is the only currency for her opponents, and total victory on every political issue is the only acceptable outcome from a debate. her arguments regarding prisoners at guantanomo are ignorant retarded specious and ultimately a waste of breath. these clowns are not prisoners of war, because they never wore any uniform, they are criminal mercenary beligerants in a war zone, (spies and saboteurs) and forign insurgents attempting to cause insurrection and sabotage in a military occupation zone. they chose their path, and must now be kept in confinement until the security of the occupation is no longer threatened by their actions (when the occupation is over) had they been actual POW's they would already be home now,, but they are not. they deserve no trials,, no juries, no lawyers,, and no communication with their fellows in the occupation zone. they do deserve a military tribunal, and in my opinion if they are found guilty of placing IEDs or assisting those who did they should be shot as saboteurs. this is the punishment specified for that crime in the geneva convention.

my opposition to the glorious and noble cultures of somalia,, cuba, mexican narcotrafficos, chechnyan terrorists, abu sayyaf, the Lords Army in Uganda, the Sudan, Hamas and Hezzbollah obviously chaps your ass, but i dont care. you can celebrate diversity with those bastards till they hack you up with machetes for all i care. i refuse to lower my standards of civilized behavior to accommodate primitivism, savagery, magical thinking, dark ages mysticism, magical beard cults and totalitarian regimes.

your continued inability to understand the simple and foundational flaw in your regurgitated pablum in your origina post to start this mental abortion of a thread marks you as mentally defective.

foreign insurgents from syria, lebbanon, iran, chechnya, xinghai province in china, egypt, the sudan and other nations in the war zones and later the occupation zones of iraq and afghanistan are not shoplifters and kids sneraking a cigarette behing the gym whgen they should be in class. they are illegal combbatants with no uniform acting as illegal mercenary forces in a war zone. they are spies saboteurs and murderers. they hide in the populace using the real civilians as human shields as they plant explosives on city streets and butcher the children of dissidents against the intolerable regimes which the occupation forces are trying to depose.

heres a blast from the past, we've all seen this picture:

View attachment 2300965

but the story behind it is rarely told. the "victim" was the leader of a vietcong death squad who infiltrated south vietnam with no uniforms,, pretending to be civilians, and then in the chaos of the tet offensive, they rounded up unarmed women and children, the falimies of south vietnamese police officials and any civilian police officers as they could find, tied them up and executed them in a ditch. he was caught doing an end-zone dance over the ditch which contained 34 bodies, most of them tied up women and kids,, several of them the god-children (if youre not catholic look it up) of the police cheif,, who happens to be the guy with the gun in the picture. nguyen van lem, the "victim" had just finished declaring that his revolutionary brothers would liberate him and he would then continue his task of murdering as many local police officers and their families as he could find, and there is nothing you can do abou- bang!

un-uniformed spy, saboteur and murderer in a war zone,, justice served. end of story. but it was sooooo shocking to the bleeding hearts in america, who never saw the ditch full of women and kids this dog butchered, and dint hear his insane monologueing just before his brains painted the street. if the us populace had got that story there would have been no controversy. thanks walter cronkite and all his other fellow travellers.

and now you, and the others like yo have taken up the fallen banner of lies and halftruths so that you can once again march boldly into conflict with logic sense and honesty. nice job.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
You got everything right except for the fact that
Bush is a war criminal
there are so many reasons why he is not.

1: he did not order or condone any actions which were outside the scope of his authority as commander in chief of the US during a duly authorized pair of foreign wars.
2: the wars were legal actions instituted as a result of insults and aggression by the regimes of the nations upon which we made legal and just war.
3: every measure, not just reasonable measures,, but even and especially UNREASONABLE measures were taken to protect noncombatants civilians and their property during the campaigns and the occupations
4: every drop of oil extracted during the occupations was purchased from the newly installed governments or stored in a reserve under the management of the officer in charge of enemy property until a legitimate government could be established.
5: our men were in uniform,, and comported themselves within the laws and customs of war,, and where they did not, they were charged and tried in accordance with military law.
6: the much lamented "military contractors" (read as mercenaries) were not under military command, despite the fact that they should have been, and were thus outside the authority of the president to control, much as a foreign ally would have been.
7: we have continued on the timetable for withdrawal as stated, and have not attempted to establish any colonies or "settlements" in the territories that were taken during the wars.
8: the people of these two nations are now free to choose their own governments again,, but they will almost certainly choose another bunch of shitballs,, but thats their choice.

nope,, no war crimes there. no concentratio camps, no death squyads, no medical experimentation on prisoners and detainees,, no torture **couch cough** as defined by the geneva convention, and no mass graves, crematoriums or ditches full of rotting corpses.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Marxist savages that were surely deserving of death, were you there? Again, History is told by the winners.

I choose to remain neutral, thats the difference, you just seem to believe everything your told.
a marxist savage eminently deserving of the death he recieved. yes.

that the "victim" was a captain in the viet cong army is confirmed by his wife.
that he was not in a uniform is confirmed by the photo
the ditch full of murdered women and children was confirmed by the photographer (who later apologized for the infamy his photo brought to the general)
the "revolutionary brothers shall liberate me and we shall do more of the same" monologue was confirmed by viet speaking personnel on the scene.
no charges of war crimes were ever brought against the general, even by the north vietnamese because nguyen van lem was a spy saboteur and murderer of women and children and they fucking knew it.

that wasnt even a good effort.

try harder.
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
your comment is specious, the constitution still previls when dealing with domestic crime, even in the case of drug kingpins, rapists, murderers and pickpockets. bernie maddoff was tried and convicted for his crimes under the law, he was not subject to indefinite detention as an enemy combatant.

even the fort hood shooter is not held incommunicado and waterboarded for his ACTUAL relationjship with terrorist organizations and his ACTUAL commission of political terrorism on US soil. had he deserted,, gone to afghanistan and taken up arms with the talibs he would be in an entirely different kettle of fish.

THAT is the point. terrorist detainees are not scofflaws, drunk drivers or potheads, they are armed spies and saboteurs attempting to destabilize and undermine lawe and order in a military war zone,, and later in a military occupation zone. the laws and conventions pertaining to THOSE douchebags are entirely different from those pertaining to domestic criminal douchebags.

the left and the blind bush haters deliberately avert their gaze from these abundantly clear facts to allow their continued narrative that bush was a war criminal and a scoundrel. pull your head up from rachel maddow's dick and catch a breath of clean clear air. you just might get your noodle bubbling again.
[video=youtube;M9zGhYSIAP8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9zGhYSIAP8[/video]

Tell me what this 16 year old did. Oh, you can't, because it's a secret and his Mom has no idea.

Two years ago, a document released by the U.S. Senate showed that in fiscal year 2008, 62% of sneak-and-peek searches carried out by authorities under provisions of the Patriot Act were in cases having to do with illegal drugs. By comparison, only 0.4% of the Patriot Act sneak-and-peek searches in fiscal year 2008 had to do with terrorism. In these searches, contrary to the 4th Amendment to the Constitution, targets of search aren’t informed that the government has been searching through their property or personal effects.
Was fiscal year 2008 a fluke? Congresional records show that an update of the same statistics for fiscal year 2009 was provided to the U.S. Senate on July 13 2010 and to the U.S. House of Representatives on September 14 2010. These statistical updates were sent by the Obama administration’s Administrative Office of the United States Courts, but unfortunately the AOUSC has declined to publish those same statistics on its website. The Congress, upon receiving these fiscal year 2009 statistics, forwarded them on to the House Judiciary and Senate Judiciary committees, neither one of which has published the statistics for public consumption. Indeed, the Senate Judiciary Committee actively chose not to release this letter in its publication of committee correspondence for the 111th Congress. These statistics are not for public consumption.
http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2011/02/04/use-of-patriot-act-power-for-drug-war-skyrockets/

Among the many changes since Sept. 11, 2001, the Patriot Act has been one of the most debated.
Benjamin Wallace-Wells writes in the New York Magazine this week about how the act is doing, 10 years later, calling it the “kitchen sink approach to national security.”
The act makes “it easier to wiretap American citizens suspected of cooperating with terrorism, to snoop through business records without notification, and to execute search warrants without immediately informing their targets (a so-called sneak-and-peek).”
So how has the Patriot Act fared as a defense against terrorism? The act has been used in1,618 drug cases and only 15 terrorism cases.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/patriot-act-used-to-fight-more-drug-dealers-than-terrorists/2011/09/07/gIQAcmEBAK_blog.html

What I'm saying is factual. What you're saying is completely unfounded bullshit and you're foolish to ever support these kinds of powers. Especially for such a non threat as terrorism. You're more likely to be killed by the police (a lot more likely, especially given your assumed hobby). You're hundreds of times more likely to be killed in a car accident.
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
What sources? Rachael maddow is dumb when it comes to some things I agree with that(Guns for example) but she has a good heart and good intentions evidenced by the fact she frequently covers things others won't cover and does real investigative reporting, its a miracle she works for MSM. Don't even know what your ranting about I guees its your marxist/savage takeover fantasy again lol Sorry everyone doesn't fit into your very narrow world view. The political compass is not some vast conspiracy theory that looks like this: View attachment 2300648
Rachael Maddow does not have good heart. She distorts and spins most every thing she broadcasts, often she outright lies. These are not the actions of a "good heart". These are the actions of a scoundrel.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
red1966 does not have good heart. he distorts and spins most every thing he posts, often he outright lies. these are not the actions of a "good heart". these are the actions of a scoundrel with a tiny penis.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
there are so many reasons why he is not.

1: he did not order or condone any actions which were outside the scope of his authority as commander in chief of the US during a duly authorized pair of foreign wars.
2: the wars were legal actions instituted as a result of insults and aggression by the regimes of the nations upon which we made legal and just war.
3: every measure, not just reasonable measures,, but even and especially UNREASONABLE measures were taken to protect noncombatants civilians and their property during the campaigns and the occupations
4: every drop of oil extracted during the occupations was purchased from the newly installed governments or stored in a reserve under the management of the officer in charge of enemy property until a legitimate government could be established.
5: our men were in uniform,, and comported themselves within the laws and customs of war,, and where they did not, they were charged and tried in accordance with military law.
6: the much lamented "military contractors" (read as mercenaries) were not under military command, despite the fact that they should have been, and were thus outside the authority of the president to control, much as a foreign ally would have been.
7: we have continued on the timetable for withdrawal as stated, and have not attempted to establish any colonies or "settlements" in the territories that were taken during the wars.
8: the people of these two nations are now free to choose their own governments again,, but they will almost certainly choose another bunch of shitballs,, but thats their choice.

nope,, no war crimes there. no concentratio camps, no death squyads, no medical experimentation on prisoners and detainees,, no torture **couch cough** as defined by the geneva convention, and no mass graves, crematoriums or ditches full of rotting corpses.
Sure whatever gets you thru the night

Care to explain why he doesnt travel overseas to like Europe?
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Because of too many people with mental problems like you there.
George W Bush has had to call off a trip to Switzerland next weekend amid planned protests by human rights groups over the treatment of detainees at Guantánamo Bay and the threat of a warrant for his arrest.
David Sherzer, a spokesman for the former US president, confirmed the move in an email to the Associated Press. "We regret that the speech has been cancelled," he said. "President Bush was looking forward to speaking about freedom and offering reflections from his time in office."
The visit would have been Bush's first to Europe since he admitted in his autobiography, Decision Points, in November that he had authorised the use of waterboarding – simulated drowning – on detainees at Guantánamo accused of links with al-Qaida. Whether out of concern over the protests or the arrest warrant, it is an extraordinary development for a former US president to have his travel plans curtailed in this way, and amounts to a victory for human rights campaigners.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/feb/06/george-bush-trip-to-switzerland
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
George W Bush has had to call off a trip to Switzerland next weekend amid planned protests by human rights groups over the treatment of detainees at Guantánamo Bay and the threat of a warrant for his arrest.
David Sherzer, a spokesman for the former US president, confirmed the move in an email to the Associated Press. "We regret that the speech has been cancelled," he said. "President Bush was looking forward to speaking about freedom and offering reflections from his time in office."
The visit would have been Bush's first to Europe since he admitted in his autobiography, Decision Points, in November that he had authorised the use of waterboarding – simulated drowning – on detainees at Guantánamo accused of links with al-Qaida. Whether out of concern over the protests or the arrest warrant, it is an extraordinary development for a former US president to have his travel plans curtailed in this way, and amounts to a victory for human rights campaigners.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/feb/06/george-bush-trip-to-switzerland
What I said before still stands.
 

dtp5150

Well-Known Member
racist laws being preventively enforced? i'm sorry but i feel sick :( how do ppl think about this stuff
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
Not sure how the laws are racist. They could be enforced that way I suppose, but the law itself is not racist. Right now, a 16 year old white boy is being held on those laws, without contact with his parents or even a lawyer.
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
Not sure how the laws are racist. They could be enforced that way I suppose, but the law itself is not racist. Right now, a 16 year old white boy is being held on those laws, without contact with his parents or even a lawyer.
Where is this story? Tried google, can't find it.
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
Saw it on news Sunday night. Don't remember kid's name or even where he was from. I think I saw it on Fox, but it may have been on MSNBC or CNN, I watch all three. He allegedly made threatening statements on a twitter account, I think. Sorry I can't be more help.
 

deprave

New Member
[video=youtube;M9zGhYSIAP8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9zGhYSIAP8[/video]

Tell me what this 16 year old did. Oh, you can't, because it's a secret and his Mom has no idea.



http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2011/02/04/use-of-patriot-act-power-for-drug-war-skyrockets/



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/patriot-act-used-to-fight-more-drug-dealers-than-terrorists/2011/09/07/gIQAcmEBAK_blog.html

What I'm saying is factual. What you're saying is completely unfounded bullshit and you're foolish to ever support these kinds of powers. Especially for such a non threat as terrorism. You're more likely to be killed by the police (a lot more likely, especially given your assumed hobby). You're hundreds of times more likely to be killed in a car accident.
Great post and Good example why the patriot act is not patriotic. We should not support any fascist politician supported this including, Obama, Mitt Romney, Paul Ryan...
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Great post and Good example why the patriot act is not patriotic. We should not support any fascist politician supported this including, Obama, Mitt Romney, Paul Ryan...
it's not a great post and it's not a good example of anything. the entiore "story" is full of weasel words (might be, could be, not sure if, etc...)

the basic FACTS are a suburban kid stands accused of making bomb threats to several persons and organizations over the interwebs and phone in another state that the state of residence. he was arrested with the help of local and state authorities and is being held in an ordinary "juvenile detention facility" (juvie for fucks sake) in the state where the threats were directed, not necessarily made. mommy claims she has "limited access" (because junior is in another state not because he is in guantanamo with a car battery hooked up to his genitals) and her shyster lawyers are claiming he is being prosecuted under the patriot act. the prosecutors cops and FBI wont comment to the news cameras (about an ongoing case involving a juvenile) so they must be hiding something ZOMG!!! sekrit prizins in murrika! theyz gunna new werld ordur us with their jew conspiracy and make uz all sing the mexican nashunal anthim and plej alleejinse to the UN flag!!
 

deprave

New Member
it's not a great post and it's not a good example of anything. the entiore "story" is full of weasel words (might be, could be, not sure if, etc...)

the basic FACTS are a suburban kid stands accused of making bomb threats to several persons and organizations over the interwebs and phone in another state that the state of residence. he was arrested with the help of local and state authorities and is being held in an ordinary "juvenile detention facility" (juvie for fucks sake) in the state where the threats were directed, not necessarily made. mommy claims she has "limited access" (because junior is in another state not because he is in guantanamo with a car battery hooked up to his genitals) and her shyster lawyers are claiming he is being prosecuted under the patriot act. the prosecutors cops and FBI wont comment to the news cameras (about an ongoing case involving a juvenile) so they must be hiding something ZOMG!!! sekrit prizins in murrika! theyz gunna new werld ordur us with their jew conspiracy and make uz all sing the mexican nashunal anthim and plej alleejinse to the UN flag!!
Way over your head
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Raleigh, N.C. — The U.S. Department of Justice said Thursday a local mother's claim that her son is being held under the USA Patriot Act is incorrect.

Annette Lundeby told WRAL News on April 29 that her 16-year-old son, Ashton Lundeby, is being held at a juvenile facility in South Bend, Ind., on a criminal complaint that he made a bomb threat from his Oxford home on the night of Feb. 15.

She said she believed authorities applied the Patriot Act to strip her son of his due process rights. She said she has had little access to him since his March 5 arrest.

Responding after nationwide media attention following the story, the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Indiana said in a news release that the charge is based on federal law prohibiting bomb and death threats.

"This charge is unrelated to the Patriot Act," U.S. Attorney David Capp said.

Capp and the FBI initially declined to talk about the case, citing a gag order and law that prohibits disclosure of information in federal cases involving juveniles.

But in Thursday's release, he said, the arrest stems from a false bomb threat directed at Purdue University and similar threats to other schools.

"The FBI, the Purdue University Police Department and the Tippecanoe County Prosecutor's Office conducted an extensive investigation into this matter, resulting in that arrest," Capp said.

Annette Lundeby said Thursday afternoon she had assumed federal agents arrested her son under the Patriot Act based on jackets they wore that read "Terrorist Task Force" and because they have given her no information about the case.

She also said she has been trying for weeks to get information about the case and was "amazed" it took nationwide attention for the U.S. attorney to release it.

"They have had plenty of time to contact me, and they won't even return my calls, yet they contact the media?" Lundeby said.

In her initial WRAL News interview last month, she said told agents that someone hacked into her son's IP address and used his Internet phone account to make the alleged threats.

Investigators seized a computer, cell phone, gaming console and routers from her home, according to search warrants, but Lundeby said they found no bomb-making materials.

Not mentioning Ashton Lundeby by name, Capp also said the "juvenile" has been represented by counsel at each of his three court appearances and that his mother "has been apprised of each" and that he is being held in a facility that permits family visits.

Lundeby said Thursday she has not been made aware of any other court appearance other than his initial one in Raleigh, despite her "constant inquiries."

"I want to be there," she said.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
16-year-old North Carolina boy arrested for allegedly making a bomb threat against Purdue University has been charged as an adult for that threat, and for threats against eight other schools and two FBI offices, the Justice Department announced Wednesday.Ashton Lundeby allegedly staged bomb hoaxes from mid-2008 until his arrest last March. He’s charged with conspiring to make threats against Purdue, the University of North Carolina, Florida State University, Clemson University, Boston College and FBI offices in Colorado and Louisiana.
The indictment also accuses him of making a series of five more calls to high schools around the country on March 4, two days before his arrest.


Lundeby’s mother, Annette Lundeby, admitted in an interview
with Threat Level in May that her son was “Tyrone” — a notorious prank phone
caller who performed for a live internet audience in exchange for PayPal
donations. But she claimed that he was with her in church at the time of the
Purdue hoax.


An former fan of “Tyrone” who helped police track him down told
Threat Level that the prank caller had begun accepting donations in exchange for
shutting down donors’ schools for a day with fake bomb threats — a charge
reflected in the indictment.


According to prosecutors in South Bend, Indiana, where the case
was filed, a federal judge granted a government motion to try the teenager as an
adult — an unusual request from the feds that cleared the way for his indictment
and the public release of his name. Lundeby is in custody.


Ashton Lundeby’s
arrest stoked widespread outrage on the web after Raleigh, North Carolina’s
WRAL-5 reported on the
case
, noting that the boy is a patriotic homeschooled student with an
American flag bedspread. Much of the online fury was triggered by Annette
Lundeby’s incorrect claim — uncritically reported by the station — that the boy
was being held without any legal rights on the authority of the 2001 USA Patriot
Act.


http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/07/lundeby-indictment/
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Point 1: [video=youtube;M9zGhYSIAP8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9zGhYSIAP8[/video]

Point 2: Tell me what this 16 year old did. Oh, you can't, because it's a secret and his Mom has no idea.



Point 3: http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2011/02/04/use-of-patriot-act-power-for-drug-war-skyrockets/


Point 4: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/patriot-act-used-to-fight-more-drug-dealers-than-terrorists/2011/09/07/gIQAcmEBAK_blog.html

Point 5: What I'm saying is factual. What you're saying is completely unfounded bullshit and you're foolish to ever support these kinds of powers. Especially for such a non threat as terrorism. You're more likely to be killed by the police (a lot more likely, especially given your assumed hobby). You're hundreds of times more likely to be killed in a car accident.
Point 1: at 10 pm the FBI and several local cops busted junior, he is accused of making terrorist threats over the interwebs (its right there in the damned video you posted) Mommy was shocked cuz she "doesnt believe in guns" but they "stormed her house" looking for him in specific and presented her with a search warrant. as they had a search warrant they certainly also had an arrest warrant (all normal procedures for anybody who makes bomb threats and may in fact have bombs). direct from mommy: "they told me he was being arrested for making NUMEROUS (her emphasis) bomb threats" she then alleges she told the cops "soembody stole juniuor's IP address and made prank calls" this statement is either a lie made up on the spot, or crafted later and inserted into the story to give the impression that the cops would not listen to reason (there is no reasoning with an arrest warrant until your arraignment anybody who ever got busted knows this) Junior was taken to a juvenile hall in indiana where the bomb threats were directed (facing justice in the jurisdiction where the crime occured ohh my!) which is the required practice for all interstate crime. rob a bank in tennesee, get arrested in arizona and you will face charges in tennesee not arizona. even a moron knows this. then the talking head goes on to say mommy has had "little access" and the patriot act stripped junior of his rights to "due process" (but with all those warrants and her own assertion that the charges have some merit make that pure hyperbole) and they have no right to even defend him because the patriot act supersedes the constitution..." more hyperbole, and a little sophistry thrown in. there is a judicial gag order in the case so prosecutiors cant talk about the case with the press,, zomg! a judge not letting the prosecutor talk about a case involving a juvenile? shocking.
i suppose you expect the courts and prosecutors to name names of rape victims, and post all the evidence found on the hardrives of kiddyporn producers for your examination as well? the final third og the video is nothing but sophistry and assumptions of facts not in evidence. they were 2 seconds away from screaming THINK OF THE CHILDREN! before the cameras shut off. the entire story fails for lack of facts,, being a one-sided harangue by leftists trying to defame and impugn Dubya for his evil rights destroying patriot act (when not a single actual fact demonstrated that the patriot act had been invoked) impassioned handwringing aside junior may have been skunked by an IP thief but more likely he is an emo fuckwith who thinks phoning in bomb threats is funny.

Point 2: making bomb threats over the phone and interwebs. are you stupid? thats what it says in the tv report YOU posted dumbass.

point 3: you mean to say that when given the power to execute a secret search warrant the DEA and other investigators use it? wow thats amazing!

Point 4: so not thinking Dubya is a war criminal means i automatically approved and in fact was the driving force behind the implementation of every action taken while he was president. news to me. the congress and the courts had no chance to examine this bill, and no chance to remove it when the democratr majority was given the option in duibya's second term? truely amazing.

Point 5: what you are saying is in fact unfounded allegations of wrongdoing by the president who signed a billed passed by congress. your every "evidence" presented of that selfsame wrongdioing is all just handwringing, hypewrbole sophistry and lies based on a faulty understanding of how bills become laws. i might suggest a viewing of Schoolhouse Rock to increase your ability top discuss FACTS without engaging in appeals to emotion.

I do not support the passage or the implementation of the patriot act, even it's name is an affront to my sensibilities,, but the subject at hand in not the patriot act you bumbling buffoon, it is the detention and treatment of non-militaryyy combatants with no uniforms captured in the battlefeild or by the military occupation in iraq and afghanistan, not graffiti taggers, parking meter violators,, or burglars in the US. the detainees (NOT POW's) in guantanamo are NOT two bit chain snatchers or turnstile jumpers. they are spies and saboteurs from a war zone.
 
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