puffenuff
Well-Known Member
I too am interested in hearing thoughts and opinions on these full spectrum all white led grow lights.
New Led Or Not ?
- Thread starter maxpesh
- Start date
Spuzzum
Well-Known Member
Depends on the diodes.
If you look at the spectral output of the Cree whites I provided, you see pretty much all the required wavelengths. Some more and some less.. depending on the type of white, ie: Cool, Warm, or Neutral. I'm not saying Cree "specifically", but I don't know the other company's specs as much, other than lumen output.. less than Cree
.So if the competition has a spectral output that's more or less the same as a Cree, then they too should cover the same spectral range.
If you've ever grown under fluoros before, even if just clone/veg, then you know WarmWhite "and" CoolWhite gives the best results. But.. google some T5's out there and look at the spectral graphs. You'll see more below 450nm than the Cree CoolWhites give, and more 735nm-980nm than the Cree WarmWhites give. More UV, and more IR.
UV's not really needed, but it does benefit. IR on the other hand.. we need that for transpiration, as well as the 735nm itself being a needed wavelength.. if using 660nm you need 735nm.. they work together, or so I gather from what I've read.
Now, given all that.. they do sell garden lights for kitchen herbs.. but it's all CoolWhites. Things veg quite well under them. Personally I want to try an "all white" test, using just CoolWhites and WarmWhites. There's at least one other person at greenpinelane who's thinking the same way.
The "only" thing I think may be lacking.. is the InfraRed.. but not too sure what percentage is really needed in the first place. That's how I started designing my array.. looked at what's needed spectral wise, then looked at the spectral outputs of HPS and MH bulbs.. then looked at what percentage these wavelengths were in each bulb.. tried to replicate that.
A MH will bud plants just fine without a HPS.. and has even less FarRed than the HPS, so that's something to consider as well. In fact.. MH bud is higher in THC, and tighter buds.. though the plants will be shorter, and the harvest will be less. But more potent because of the UV-B.
That's why a mixture of MH and HPS works the best.
FranJan
Well-Known Member
This is the thread that's gonna make me replace my CFL's in my Veg/Clone cab even though I swore I wouldn't spend anymore money on LEDs in 2012. 
I mean really what's stopping me (besides money) from buying some 3 watt (3x1, 6500K, 45°) Cree XR-E based bulbs, stick 4 or 5 of those on some make-shift UFO that i hang over the mom's and shine 1 or 2 Par 38 Philips Endura, (16 watts, 3200K, 120°) spots on or between them? I got 4 moms, none more than 3 feet tall under 2X23 watt CFL's. They grow at a very good rate and are in excellent health, but I'm sick of having to constantly adjust the CFL's every morning, dealing with the heat, and I live in an area where electricity ain't exactly cheap. If I can cut the electricity and keep the health at a cost of growth rate, I can live with that. And after seeing how my plants are reacting to my new flowering panel, which is more white and blue than red, I can't imagine a Veg setup like I described above failing.
Love the project Spuzz, wish I had some more bank and some time, I'd be right there with you. For 2012 technology, that panel's gonna kick some ass! Thanx for sharing.
I mean really what's stopping me (besides money) from buying some 3 watt (3x1, 6500K, 45°) Cree XR-E based bulbs, stick 4 or 5 of those on some make-shift UFO that i hang over the mom's and shine 1 or 2 Par 38 Philips Endura, (16 watts, 3200K, 120°) spots on or between them? I got 4 moms, none more than 3 feet tall under 2X23 watt CFL's. They grow at a very good rate and are in excellent health, but I'm sick of having to constantly adjust the CFL's every morning, dealing with the heat, and I live in an area where electricity ain't exactly cheap. If I can cut the electricity and keep the health at a cost of growth rate, I can live with that. And after seeing how my plants are reacting to my new flowering panel, which is more white and blue than red, I can't imagine a Veg setup like I described above failing.
Love the project Spuzz, wish I had some more bank and some time, I'd be right there with you. For 2012 technology, that panel's gonna kick some ass! Thanx for sharing.
Spuzzum
Well-Known Member
This is the thread that's gonna make me replace my CFL's in my Veg/Clone cab even though I swore I wouldn't spend anymore money on LEDs in 2012.
I mean really what's stopping me (besides money) from buying some 3 watt (3x1, 6500K, 45°) Cree XR-E based bulbs, stick 4 or 5 of those on some make-shift UFO that i hang over the mom's and shine 1 or 2 Par 38 Philips Endura, (16 watts, 3200K, 120°) spots on or between them? I got 4 moms, none more than 3 feet tall under 2X23 watt CFL's. They grow at a very good rate and are in excellent health, but I'm sick of having to constantly adjust the CFL's every morning, dealing with the heat, and I live in an area where electricity ain't exactly cheap. If I can cut the electricity and keep the health at a cost of growth rate, I can live with that. And after seeing how my plants are reacting to my new flowering panel, which is more white and blue than red, I can't imagine a Veg setup like I described above failing.
Love the project Spuzz, wish I had some more bank and some time, I'd be right there with you. For 2012 technology, that panel's gonna kick some ass! Thanx for sharing.
Cheers..
If using whites though.. get the XP-G's.. lower voltage and higher lumen output.
http://www.cutter.com.au/products.php?cat=Cree+XPG
Spuzzum
Well-Known Member
So... buddy received his 150x3W panel from E.shine the other day.. guess what? 20 hours later.. 2 rows of diodes are now dead.
He's saying it's the driver, as there's been lots of driver issues with these things already, but I think it's a single dead diode.. causing the rest of the string not to light up.
So.. they either push the diodes way too close to their maximum, it's the cheap ChinaCrap diodes to begin with, or, it is in fact the drivers.
We already know they use crap diodes, and "claim" 3W Epistars when Epistar doesn't make 3W diodes. That could be the reason right there.
But if it is indeed the drivers themselves.. then there's no better reason to stay the fuck away from these ChinaCraps than that. The LAST thing anybody needs... is a fire because of a grow panel. Imagine trying to explain that to the manager or insurance agent. Never mind the cops.
Even worse.. someone dies from the fire caused by some grow panel. THEN you have some explaining for the cops.........
Not worth it in my mind.
He's saying it's the driver, as there's been lots of driver issues with these things already, but I think it's a single dead diode.. causing the rest of the string not to light up.
So.. they either push the diodes way too close to their maximum, it's the cheap ChinaCrap diodes to begin with, or, it is in fact the drivers.
We already know they use crap diodes, and "claim" 3W Epistars when Epistar doesn't make 3W diodes. That could be the reason right there.
But if it is indeed the drivers themselves.. then there's no better reason to stay the fuck away from these ChinaCraps than that. The LAST thing anybody needs... is a fire because of a grow panel. Imagine trying to explain that to the manager or insurance agent. Never mind the cops.
Even worse.. someone dies from the fire caused by some grow panel. THEN you have some explaining for the cops.........
Not worth it in my mind.
PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
So as I've understood it, if an led will fail its usually in the first 100hrs, after that it's usually the driver..
About the all white led panels good explanations(thanks).......my problem is what's the point of growing with leds if where back to mimicking traditional lighting..I thought it's about specific wavelengths and filtering out unusable spectrums....Or are we not there yet??
edit: I still can't believe these all white(led) panels have any shot of producing good flowering levels WITHOUT dedicated 630-660 diodes....
About the all white led panels good explanations(thanks).......my problem is what's the point of growing with leds if where back to mimicking traditional lighting..I thought it's about specific wavelengths and filtering out unusable spectrums....Or are we not there yet??
edit: I still can't believe these all white(led) panels have any shot of producing good flowering levels WITHOUT dedicated 630-660 diodes....
Spuzzum
Well-Known Member
So as I've understood it, if an led will fail its usually in the first 100hrs, after that it's usually the driver..
About the all white led panels good explanations(thanks).......my problem is what's the point of growing with leds if where back to mimicking traditional lighting..I thought it's about specific wavelengths and filtering out unusable spectrums....Or are we not there yet??
edit: I still can't believe these all white(led) panels have any shot of producing good flowering levels WITHOUT dedicated 630-660 diodes....
The Cree whites actually have more 630nm and 660nm than the Hortilux HPS.
Here's "my" view on using just whites... a Cree CoolWhite gives more lumen per watt than an HPS, or at least equal to. A "top bin" CoolWhite gives at least 156 lumen per watt.
And that's an older pdf. That "200 lm/w" white hasn't hit the market yet.
So.. right away we have more output per watt than an HPS. They radiate less heat, but even if you need to add a bit back.. there's nowhere near the same amount of heat as a HID.. less exhaust needed, less power burned.
And the fact that they "should" last at least 5 years... that's better than buying a HID every 6 to 12 months, for the same 5 years.
And if you made your own.. in 5 years when it comes time to replace the diodes.. they'll be better and cheaper. You already have the heatsink and drivers, you just need to swap out the stars.
edit:
And... if you get into solar power panels... these things use DC.. solar power is DC.. no need for ac to dc power supply, and free energy for the lights from the solar panels.
There's quite a few videos on youtube showing how to make your own solar panels.
PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
Fantastic graphs and good thorough explanation.........The problem is i've been told this before with my CMH bulbs putting out more red than HPS and more blue than MH(don't get me wrong, I love my cmh bulbs) but it became the jack of all trades, but the master on none...Many growers went back to using HPS in flowering for larger yields.....
Oh btw i bought a progrow180 with cree diodes in them(probably2diodes)!!!hahaha
Oh btw i bought a progrow180 with cree diodes in them(probably2diodes)!!!hahaha
Spuzzum
Well-Known Member
CMH? Compact Metal Halide? 250W?
If that's what it is.. I had a 250w HPS in a cab in the late 90's.. kicked ass in a 36" x 18" x 3' tall grow area. From top of pots to bottom of air-cooled hood.. a little over 24". Had to make the hood myself.. couldn't find one that would fit that space
The "coral reef tank" community uses these things.. not only to illuminate their tanks, but they're actually "growing corals".. and other aquatic life with them. And they're doing it in "water".. at least 18" deep. That's a lot of power needed to still be a decent PAR at the bottom of the tank. That's also where the lenses come in. I'm ordering direct from LedLink, as they have the lenses for Osrams. And even though online stores sell LedLink.. they don't carry the lens for the Osrams.. mainly just the Cree lenses.
Here's an example of "one" model of LedLink's Cree lenses...
http://www.ledlink-optics.com/
Should watch this guy's "how to".. basic, but good. It's a multi part series, so just continue to the next after it's done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I_5uh4R_QQ
Only thing I'd do differently myself.. drill and use bolts or self tapping screws, I wouldn't use that thermal epoxy. It works.. but would you use it on your cpu? Probably not. Tat.. and it's a bitch to remove the stars if they're glued down.. unscrewing and using thermal "paste" is a lot easier.
Yep.. the whites. I've seen an add for a panel before claiming the same thing.. and yeah, there was only 2 or 3 whites in the entire thing. Those 2 or 3 whites probably had more "PAR" than all the other diodes in that panel combined.
edit:
should mention the reef tank community is replacing 400W halides with these... something to consider.
PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
Sorry spuzz I forgot your an led guy....CMH_Ceramic_Metal Halide...
Graphs and spec wise its pretty unbeatable...i use Philips version/GE also makes one but I prefer the retro white.
At 15000 hours it maintains 85% lumen efficiency/less than a 2% color shift throughout its life...
Over 90 Cri ......i could go on and on...oh and its 50 bucks at your local electrical supply store.
When Philips releases their new horticultural CMH this year its going to be a game changer....HID isn't dead yet
Graphs and spec wise its pretty unbeatable...i use Philips version/GE also makes one but I prefer the retro white.
At 15000 hours it maintains 85% lumen efficiency/less than a 2% color shift throughout its life...
Over 90 Cri ......i could go on and on...oh and its 50 bucks at your local electrical supply store.
When Philips releases their new horticultural CMH this year its going to be a game changer....HID isn't dead yet
Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
Guaranteed, bet my life, Pro Grow does not have one Cree bulb in it.
Email Ben and ask him to see if you can see a close up of one of his "Cree" chips. I emailed him, he was fast to respond when he thought I wanted to buy some LEDs, and never emailed me again when I said I'd like to see a pic of the Cree.
He also wont tell you what his 14 colors are.
Email Ben and ask him to see if you can see a close up of one of his "Cree" chips. I emailed him, he was fast to respond when he thought I wanted to buy some LEDs, and never emailed me again when I said I'd like to see a pic of the Cree.
He also wont tell you what his 14 colors are.
Spuzzum
Well-Known Member
Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
Ceramic Metal Halide.
I tried googling CMH.. but came up with "Cambridge Memorial Hospital"...
PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
Well shit another reason to return this panel....I already received it and those three little PC fans on top are really Loud..Guaranteed, bet my life, Pro Grow does not have one Cree bulb in it.
Email Ben and ask him to see if you can see a close up of one of his "Cree" chips. I emailed him, he was fast to respond when he thought I wanted to buy some LEDs, and never emailed me again when I said I'd like to see a pic of the Cree.
He also wont tell you what his 14 colors are.
I can hear them through two walls (drywall/but still) and its making me crazy...
Been gave me thirty days to return it.....well see about a restocking fee..because I always love threatening the BBB on them..ha
Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
I hope you get at least most of your money back.
As much as I love LEDs, they can be an expensive lesson at times.
I bet if you start talking about fake Cree's, not to mention the fake Bridgelux and Epistar chips (guaranteed there are no Cree, Osram, LEDengin, Bridgelux, Epistar chips in any LED panel that you can buy for less than $8 per actual 1 watt draw), mention false advertising to Ben, you'll get all your money back, and he might even pay for return shipping.
As much as I love LEDs, they can be an expensive lesson at times.
I bet if you start talking about fake Cree's, not to mention the fake Bridgelux and Epistar chips (guaranteed there are no Cree, Osram, LEDengin, Bridgelux, Epistar chips in any LED panel that you can buy for less than $8 per actual 1 watt draw), mention false advertising to Ben, you'll get all your money back, and he might even pay for return shipping.
Spuzzum
Well-Known Member
Here's an easy DIY panel using top bin CoolWhites and WarmWhites available right now at cutterelectonics.. with premade drivers...
Cree XP-G
10 CoolWhites top bin available right now
10 WarmWhites top bin available right now
$152 USD
http://www.cutter.com.au/products.php?cat=Cree+XPG
10.000" Wide x 10" Long Heatsink
Extruded Aluminum Heatsink
Width: 10.000"
Fin Height: 1"
Base: .300"
C/W/3": approximately .90
Weight is approximately .50 lbs per inch
Price: $30.65
SKU: G010
Shipping: Calculated at checkout
$30.65 + tax and shipping ($60?)
http://www.heatsinkusa.com/products/10.000"-Wide-x-10"-Long-Heatsink.html
BuckPucks
3021-D-E-1000mA BuckPuck Features:
Max Output Current: 1000mA
Max Input Voltage: 32VDC
Min Input Voltage: 5VDC
7-pin SIP connection, through-hole PCB mounted
Optional wire harness
External intensity control (0-100%)
External analog/digital intensity control (TTL compat.)
Drive up to 18 1W LEDs & up to 6 3W LEDs
Output short circuit protection up to 15 seconds
Output open circuit protection
Small form factor .78"x.78"x.43", 8.1grams
Built in regulated 5V reference/output to power local logic circuitry/µProcessor
$14.99ea + tax + shipping (if they don't mail)
Get 2 of them.. one per string.
http://www.ledsupply.com/03021-d-e-1000.php
Or $20 each at cutterelectronics.. might be cheaper if getting all in one shipment.
http://www.cutter.com.au/products.php?cat=BuckPuck+-+Pins
BJB Solderless Optic System for Cree LEDs
Price: 1.95 (2.15 Inc. Tax)
2.08 USD 1.58 EUR 1.32 GBP
http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut963&cat=104
AC/DC Power Supply Single- Output 24 Volt 6.5A 156W (MEAN WELL S-150-24)
1+ $34.95
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_123450_-1
=========================================================================================
LEDs = $160
HeatSink = $60
BuckPucks = $45
Power supply = $50
==================
----------- = $315
==================
Solderless holders = $40
=========================
------------------ = $355
Lenses.. about $1.25 a piece
http://shop.niviss.com/category.php?id_category=41
Or from the manufacturer themselves, about $1.50 a piece to Vancouver..
http://www.ledlink-optics.com/ProductsListLed.aspx?ID=C29DD4A4C3D943D2A015DC0B8F154859
That's all calculated using the worst case scenario for shipping charges.. it might be cheaper if you're in the US.
The LEDs will leave you with 2 spares of each.. CoolWhite and WarmWhite. Each string of 8 will use about 26V.. the Mean Well has a trimpot adjustable from 21V to 28V.. says so in the specs, and I've verified on my own units I just received.
That panel design above is actually going to be my clone/veg panel.. I need a few more diodes.
I'm planning on starting with it, and plan to breed some cherished strains I want to revive.. that are 15 years old.
Even if I can't revive "them", I'll get something going from my stash collected from the rare seed gotten from medicine at the club. I plan on doing a full grow with the mothers in there.. to get used to the LEDs, and to see what "just whites" will do. Who knows.. I may be able to skip the 735nm's from LedEngin, if the WarmWhites pump out enough by themselves. If the plants transpire ok.. then that'll be a good sign.
Cree XP-G
10 CoolWhites top bin available right now
10 WarmWhites top bin available right now
$152 USD
http://www.cutter.com.au/products.php?cat=Cree+XPG
10.000" Wide x 10" Long Heatsink
Extruded Aluminum Heatsink
Width: 10.000"
Fin Height: 1"
Base: .300"
C/W/3": approximately .90
Weight is approximately .50 lbs per inch
Price: $30.65
SKU: G010
Shipping: Calculated at checkout
$30.65 + tax and shipping ($60?)
http://www.heatsinkusa.com/products/10.000"-Wide-x-10"-Long-Heatsink.html
BuckPucks
3021-D-E-1000mA BuckPuck Features:
Max Output Current: 1000mA
Max Input Voltage: 32VDC
Min Input Voltage: 5VDC
7-pin SIP connection, through-hole PCB mounted
Optional wire harness
External intensity control (0-100%)
External analog/digital intensity control (TTL compat.)
Drive up to 18 1W LEDs & up to 6 3W LEDs
Output short circuit protection up to 15 seconds
Output open circuit protection
Small form factor .78"x.78"x.43", 8.1grams
Built in regulated 5V reference/output to power local logic circuitry/µProcessor
$14.99ea + tax + shipping (if they don't mail)
Get 2 of them.. one per string.
http://www.ledsupply.com/03021-d-e-1000.php
Or $20 each at cutterelectronics.. might be cheaper if getting all in one shipment.
http://www.cutter.com.au/products.php?cat=BuckPuck+-+Pins
BJB Solderless Optic System for Cree LEDs
Price: 1.95 (2.15 Inc. Tax)
2.08 USD 1.58 EUR 1.32 GBP
http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut963&cat=104
AC/DC Power Supply Single- Output 24 Volt 6.5A 156W (MEAN WELL S-150-24)
1+ $34.95
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_123450_-1
=========================================================================================
LEDs = $160
HeatSink = $60
BuckPucks = $45
Power supply = $50
==================
----------- = $315
==================
Solderless holders = $40
=========================
------------------ = $355
Lenses.. about $1.25 a piece
http://shop.niviss.com/category.php?id_category=41
Or from the manufacturer themselves, about $1.50 a piece to Vancouver..
http://www.ledlink-optics.com/ProductsListLed.aspx?ID=C29DD4A4C3D943D2A015DC0B8F154859
That's all calculated using the worst case scenario for shipping charges.. it might be cheaper if you're in the US.
The LEDs will leave you with 2 spares of each.. CoolWhite and WarmWhite. Each string of 8 will use about 26V.. the Mean Well has a trimpot adjustable from 21V to 28V.. says so in the specs, and I've verified on my own units I just received.
That panel design above is actually going to be my clone/veg panel.. I need a few more diodes.
I'm planning on starting with it, and plan to breed some cherished strains I want to revive.. that are 15 years old.
Even if I can't revive "them", I'll get something going from my stash collected from the rare seed gotten from medicine at the club. I plan on doing a full grow with the mothers in there.. to get used to the LEDs, and to see what "just whites" will do. Who knows.. I may be able to skip the 735nm's from LedEngin, if the WarmWhites pump out enough by themselves. If the plants transpire ok.. then that'll be a good sign.
blacktourmaline
Member
dang [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$355 for just a sixteen piece, veg clone light? wondering what it would cost to make something powerful enough to flower? Dig the DIY though....[/FONT]
PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
Oh i'm going all out.....i'm getting m money back don't worry....once you tell a retailer about the BBB they fold fast....ha
either way i'm not keeping this shit panel ..............god i love my CMH...no seriously its awesome.....
be safe and happy growing................
Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
I've been eyeing those CMH's. Once I move into my new house I just bought, I am going to try one out, there I can better manage the heat.
I've seen some great LED and HID side by sides with LED lately coming out on top. I want to do that test myself, that way I know for sure.
I've gotten 0.89 grams per watts with an LED, but I know that can easily be done with HID too.
I've seen some great LED and HID side by sides with LED lately coming out on top. I want to do that test myself, that way I know for sure.
I've gotten 0.89 grams per watts with an LED, but I know that can easily be done with HID too.
Oh i'm going all out.....i'm getting m money back don't worry....once you tell a retailer about the BBB they fold fast....ha
either way i'm not keeping this shit panel ..............god i love my CMH...no seriously its awesome.....
be safe and happy growing................
Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
Here's the guts of an Eshine/Advanced LED if anyone is interested in seeing the lovely crapsmanship that goes into these.
