Millionaire ron paul flies first class on your tax dollars

[deprave]

Abortion goes against quite a few libertarian principles and/or principels widely accept by libertarians. You can be pro-life or pro-choice and be a libertarian. The most obvious reason being that it is a social liberty so it only score you left or right, Libertarian Vs Authoritarian is not left vs right but up vs down so its impossible for stance on abortion to make you more or less libertarian.

 

[sync0s]

Abortion goes against quite a few libertarian principles and/or principels widely accept by libertarians. You can be pro-life or pro-choice and be a libertarian. The most obvious reason being that it is a social liberty so it only score you left or right, Libertarian Vs Authoritarian is not left vs right but up vs down so its impossible for stance on abortion to make you more or less libertarian.

That depends. If you say that you are pro-life because God said it is wrong and therefore nobody else should be allowed to do it: that's not very libertarian.

 

[UncleBuck]

Just like you said your rights end with my fist against your face. Your rights to your body end when it involves killing another. An unborn baby, is just that unborn. It's still a baby.

i don't like abortion debates, but here is how i would handle it hypothetically.

i would grant everything you claim, that abortion, even in cases of rape and incest, is murder (since all human life is worth saving, no matter how formed).

next place i would go is to define the consequences of accepting a fetus as life.

if the mother trips and falls thus killing the fetus, what should she be charged with? murder? manslaughter? criminal negligence?

to protect the life of the not-yet-born, should we make sure that all pregnant women are fitted with ankle bracelets that alert local authorities when they are using a staircase or an uneven sidewalk?

should we administer mandatory monthly pregnancy tests to every woman in america to determine who is pregnant, thus telling us who we need to outfit with ankle bracelets to make sure they don't walk on uneven sidewalks, possibly leading to homicide via criminal negligence?

while i sympathize with the "pro life" crew, i just can't imagine how to possibly implement an existence where a fetus is given all the rights of a regular citizen.

and just to be clear, as far as i am concerned, the mother owns whatever is inside her, potential life included. it is her decision and her decision alone how to proceed in my mind.

the other argument i use goes like this: i would ask you if you support abortion in the case where it might threaten the life of the mother. most people who are not completely dogmatic grant this exception. from there, i point out that any pregnancy whatsoever could threaten the life of the mother, and sometimes with little or nor warning. at that point i have trapped my debate opponent using only mutually agreed upon terms.

in any case, i respect your view.

 

[deprave]

That depends. If you say that you are pro-life because God said it is wrong and therefore nobody else should be allowed to do it: that's not very libertarian.

I get what your saying thats obviously conservative but say you are moving along the graph being scored on issues then that only moves you right and not up or down. So how can that make you more or less libertarian? It can't..

(dunno what the red dot is supposed to represent just illustrating my point)


If your a total authoritarian socialist like unclebuck (lol jk) on everything but abortion your still a total left wing authoritarian socialist

 

[UncleBuck]

nope cause its only 4 years in total..the total that he 'owes us' is roughly 57 grand.

ron paul has been in congress 32 years, so he owes us about $443 grand.

well seeing that Ron Paul has returned over $140,000 from his office budget to the U.S. Treasury over that time I guess we taxpayers owe him about $83,000

nope.

$443k - $140k = $303k

ronald the millionaire owes us $300,000. seeing as how he is a millionaire, this should be no problem for him (until the gold bubble crashes (again)).

 

[Carne Seca]

In a growing number of US states, pregnant women who miscarry their babies are being criminalized, some charged with murder. Ultimately, the move by state prosecutors is more widely aimed at stripping women of the legal right to abortion sanctioned by the US Supreme Court in its 1971 ruling in Roe v. Wade.


In 2006 in Mississippi, Rennie Gibbs, who became pregnant at the age of 15, lost her baby in a stillbirth at 36 weeks into the pregnancy. Prosecutors charged her with the “depraved-heart murder” of her child after they discovered she had abused cocaine, although there was no evidence that the baby’s death was connected to the mother’s substance abuse. The murder charge carries a mandatory life sentence.


Some 70 organizations across the US have filed amicus briefs in support of Ms. Gibbs in this ongoing case. In particular, they take aim at the claims by anti-abortion forces that such prosecutions protect mothers and their unborn children. One of the briefs says that to treat “as a murderer a girl who has experienced a stillbirth serves only to increase her suffering.”


Another woman, Bei Bei Shuai, has been imprisoned for the last three months without bail in Indianapolis, Indiana, charged with murdering her baby. According to police records, the 34-year-old woman attempted suicide last December 23 by ingesting rat poison after her boyfriend abandoned her when she was 33 weeks pregnant.


Shuai was rushed to the hospital and survived, giving birth to her baby the next week. The baby died four days later, and in March Shuai was charged with murder and attempted feticide. Alabama has prosecuted at least 40 cases brought under the state’s “chemical endangerment” law, which was introduced in 2006. The law, purportedly designed to protect children from fumes inhaled from methamphetamine being cooked by their parents, is now being used to criminalize pregnant women who miscarry.


Alabama mother Amanda Kimbrough delivered her baby prematurely in April 2008, and the baby died 19 minutes after birth. Kimbrough learned during her pregnancy that her child possibly suffered from Down’s syndrome, but she chose to carry the child to term. Six months after the birth, she was arrested and charged with “chemical endangerment” of her unborn child on the grounds that she had taken drugs while pregnant. She denies the claim.


This is Ron Paul's America.

 

[abandonconflict]

i don't like abortion debates, but here is how i would handle it hypothetically.

i would grant everything you claim, that abortion, even in cases of rape and incest, is murder (since all human life is worth saving, no matter how formed).

next place i would go is to define the consequences of accepting a fetus as life.

if the mother trips and falls thus killing the fetus, what should she be charged with? murder? manslaughter? criminal negligence?

to protect the life of the not-yet-born, should we make sure that all pregnant women are fitted with ankle bracelets that alert local authorities when they are using a staircase or an uneven sidewalk?

should we administer mandatory monthly pregnancy tests to every woman in america to determine who is pregnant, thus telling us who we need to outfit with ankle bracelets to make sure they don't walk on uneven sidewalks, possibly leading to homicide via criminal negligence?

while i sympathize with the "pro life" crew, i just can't imagine how to possibly implement an existence where a fetus is given all the rights of a regular citizen.

and just to be clear, as far as i am concerned, the mother owns whatever is inside her, potential life included. it is her decision and her decision alone how to proceed in my mind.

the other argument i use goes like this: i would ask you if you support abortion in the case where it might threaten the life of the mother. most people who are not completely dogmatic grant this exception. from there, i point out that any pregnancy whatsoever could threaten the life of the mother, and sometimes with little or nor warning. at that point i have trapped my debate opponent using only mutually agreed upon terms.

in any case, i respect your view.

There is also a debate regarding embryonic stem cell research related to this topic and I think we are generally in agreement about it, as I give greater precedent to science than to legality.

 

[deprave]

This is Ron Paul's America.

I lol'd at this part...the part that wasn't from the National Enquirer.

 

[UncleBuck]

There is also a debate regarding embryonic stem cell research related to this topic and I think we are generally in agreement about it, as I give greater precedent to science than to legality.

i have a buddy (former room mate) getting his doctorate in psychology in whatever college is located in ogden, utah. unlike my wife, who is in the practice end of the field, my buddy is in the research end of the field, meaning he does some pretty bad things to animals all day long.

while i am a staunch supporter of animal rights (not PETA), i am not opposed to the suffering some of these animals endure in the name of science.

and stem cells don't feel shit, so that should tell you how i feel about that.

 

[UncleBuck]

I lol'd at this part...the part that wasn't from the National Enquirer.

i am surprised you did not deem that factual reporting to be "yellow journalism"

 

[deprave]

if the mother trips and falls thus killing the fetus, what should she be charged with? murder? manslaughter? criminal negligence?

to protect the life of the not-yet-born, should we make sure that all pregnant women are fitted with ankle bracelets that alert local authorities when they are using a staircase or an uneven sidewalk?

should we administer mandatory monthly pregnancy tests to every woman in america to determine who is pregnant, thus telling us who we need to outfit with ankle bracelets to make sure they don't walk on uneven sidewalks, possibly leading to homicide via criminal negligence?

while i sympathize with the "pro life" crew, i just can't imagine how to possibly implement an existence where a fetus is given all the rights of a regular citizen.

and just to be clear, as far as i am concerned, the mother owns whatever is inside her, potential life included. it is her decision and her decision alone how to proceed in my mind.

the other argument i use goes like this: i would ask you if you support abortion in the case where it might threaten the life of the mother. most people who are not completely dogmatic grant this exception. from there, i point out that any pregnancy whatsoever could threaten the life of the mother, and sometimes with little or nor warning. at that point i have trapped my debate opponent using only mutually agreed upon terms.

in any case, i respect your view.

so you basically just have them agree with you about a bunch of inpractical nonsense and thus you feel as you have won the debate? lol

Quite a stretch to say this kind of ridiculous behavior would be prevalent. I think even this goes back to your whole argument again is that libertarians and/or "ideologues" as you would put it...can't be practical..like people are some kind of animals that need to be caged...Really its no worse then the ideologues you are so much against....hilarity..We are all such hypocrites aren't we? Why are we always so angry about the things which we ourselves are guilty of?

 

[abandonconflict]

Every 4 years it becomes cool to be a nonconformist.

 

[Canna Sylvan]

Uhm... What?

I take you to this:

http://www.l4l.org/library/cathchoi.html

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxtAF6Bi0Nk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It's all about how you define life. The government can't and shouldn't be in the business of choosing one life over another. The only fair definition of life is conception. I've heard horror stories about aborted newborns who survive an abortion and left to die alone. This one nurse found such a baby and held it for hours until it finally died. That is utterly sick. Watch some ultrasound videos where the mudering abortionist's sucking instrument is dodged. It's a life fighting against a murderer. Because it can't talk back doesn't give it any less rights. I have kids and the thought of an intentional abortion makes me sad and infuriated.

 

[sync0s]

I get what your saying thats obviously conservative but say you are moving along the graph being scored on issues then that only moves you right and not up or down. So how can that make you more or less libertarian? It can't..

(dunno what the red dot is supposed to represent just illustrating my point)


If your a total authoritarian socialist like unclebuck (lol jk) on everything but abortion your still a total left wing authoritarian socialist

So, by your logic, using the government to enforce your personal belief on all American's doesn't move your scale toward "Authoritarian?"

 

[abandonconflict]

I take you to this:

http://www.l4l.org/library/cathchoi.html

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxtAF6Bi0Nk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It's all about how you define life. The government can't and shouldn't be in the business of choosing one life over another. The only fair definition of life is conception. I've heard horror stories about aborted newborns who survive an abortion and left to die alone. This one nurse found such a baby and held it for hours until it finally died. That is utterly sick. Watch some ultrasound videos where the mudering abortionist's sucking instrument is dodged. It's a life fighting against a murderer. Because it can't talk back doesn't give it any less rights. I have kids and the thought of an intentional abortion makes me sad and infuriated.

I don't think anyone actually wants the government to be in that business. I think everyone here is actually unanimous on that one.

 

[Carne Seca]

Here we go with the emotional anecdotal argument again....

 

[sync0s]

I take you to this:

http://www.l4l.org/library/cathchoi.html

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxtAF6Bi0Nk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It's all about how you define life. The government can't and shouldn't be in the business of choosing one life over another. The only fair definition of life is conception. I've heard horror stories about aborted newborns who survive an abortion and left to die alone. This one nurse found such a baby and held it for hours until it finally died. That is utterly sick. Watch some ultrasound videos where the mudering abortionist's sucking instrument is dodged. It's a life fighting against a murderer. Because it can't talk back doesn't give it any less rights. I have kids and the thought of an intentional abortion makes me sad and infuriated.

I said what because your sentence composition is so bad that I didn't understand what you were even saying..

 

[Smirgen]

ron paul has been in congress 32 years, so he owes us about $443 grand.



nope.

$443k - $140k = $303k

ronald the millionaire owes us $300,000. seeing as how he is a millionaire, this should be no problem for him (until the gold bubble crashes (again)).

oops it looks like that $140,000 was the amount returned for one year alone (2011) previously it was $100,000 for 2010 so it appears that we might owe Dr.Paul more than I originally thought somewhere around $300,000 grand just for the last few years.

Man I wish all congressfolks were as frugal as Ron Paul.


I also ran onto an article where his son Sen.Rand Paul gave back $500,000 buckolas of his budget to the U.S. Treasury.
Pretty awesome.

 

[UncleBuck]

Here we go with the emotional anecdotal argument again....

you beat me to it.

if you truly want indignant outrage, look up cal-cruz hatcheries and how they deal with baby chicks. or don't. it made me want to start killing their employees.

the only thing i can do is exactly what i'm doing: raise my own hens and buy only local, humane poultry.

i feel for the pro lifers who have feelings about abortion like i do about cal-cruz hatcheries, but i can only control what i can control, and they can only control what they can control. all the laws in the world will not stop hatcheries from discarding baby chicks, just like all the laws in the world will not stop abortions.

life is cruel.

 

[UncleBuck]

I wish all congressfolks were as frugal as Ron Paul.

60% of congress members are more frugal than ronald the millionaire when it comes to spending our money to stretch their legs in first class.

a fellow ron paul supporter of yours pointed this out, so don't be mad.