Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Where folks go wrong is treating this plant as something it isn't. It's just a weed. If you're not growing it like you would say.....a tomato, you're gonna fail or at least get disappointing results.
UB
Snake Oil, Horticultural Myths, Horticultural Urban Legends, and Persuaders
- Thread starter Uncle Ben
- Start date
UB
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Since you don't really know what's in them, the question remains, "how do you know they are perfectly good products?" Many of the gardens I've seen journaled who are using AN look like shit. That may be for various reasons, primary one being the lack of experience and understanding what makes a plant tick on the part of noobs, AN's target group. Like I said, if I were to step into a room full of ag pros and showed them the labels on AN's stuff, they'd laugh me right out of the room as some stupid fool who doesn't know shit about value and quality.
Might was well be buying light relief products are japanese magnet therapy.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
December 8, 2011
More Compost Tea Stuff
Posted by Jeff Gillman
If youre getting sick of the compost tea debate then you can skip this post. If not, then read on!
This past week I received my copy of Arboriculture and Urban Forestry 37(6). And in it, page 269, I discovered an article titled Laboratory Assays on the Effects of Aerated Compost Tea and Fertilization on Biochemical Properties and Denitrification in a Silt Loam and Bt Clay Loam Soils by Bryant Scharenbroch, William Treaurer, Michelle Catania and Vincent Brand. Basically what the authors did was to add dilute compost tea, concentrated compost tea, and a fertilizer to a couple of different types of soil in a laboratory setting to establish how they changed the soil. To be honest the article was a little tough to read for a non-soil scientist and I found myself looking up terms quite often. Still, I found their conclusions fascinating. There were actually a number of conclusions, Im just going to cover what I think are the most interesting:
Aerated Compost tea appears INFERIOR [you read that right inferior] compared to fertilizer in its ability to increase microbial biomass, microbial activity and a few other things. Hmmm Id been told that microbes hated synthetic fertilizer. I guess not all microbes agree. In terms of the fertilizer used, it was a 30-10-7. I didnt see it explicitly stated in the article, but Id bet it was a synthetic fertilizer called Arbor Green Pro. It was applied at what I would consider a heavy dose.
Aerated compost tea, or at least the compost tea tested in this article, did contain a significant amount of nutrients.
On the up side for compost tea it was pointed out that compost tea treatments might help a poor soil retain more nitrogen. Maybe but the authors also pointed out that only the fertilizer treatment appeared to deliver enough available nitrogen to potentially meet tree needs in the Bt horizon soils (in other words poorer soils). Interesting but if we just added compost wed have a better soil anyway, which brings us to the next point .
The compost tea tested contained only a small portion of the microorganisms that compost does.
So whats the take home message from this article? This wasn't explicitly stated in the article -- in fact I'm not even sure the authors would agree with me -- but to me the important message is 1) ADD COMPOST and 2) IF YOU NEED TO ADD NUTRIENTS ADD FERTILIZER NOT COMPOST TEA (though Id go with a nice renewable organic rather than a synthetic).
More Compost Tea Stuff
Posted by Jeff Gillman
If youre getting sick of the compost tea debate then you can skip this post. If not, then read on!
This past week I received my copy of Arboriculture and Urban Forestry 37(6). And in it, page 269, I discovered an article titled Laboratory Assays on the Effects of Aerated Compost Tea and Fertilization on Biochemical Properties and Denitrification in a Silt Loam and Bt Clay Loam Soils by Bryant Scharenbroch, William Treaurer, Michelle Catania and Vincent Brand. Basically what the authors did was to add dilute compost tea, concentrated compost tea, and a fertilizer to a couple of different types of soil in a laboratory setting to establish how they changed the soil. To be honest the article was a little tough to read for a non-soil scientist and I found myself looking up terms quite often. Still, I found their conclusions fascinating. There were actually a number of conclusions, Im just going to cover what I think are the most interesting:
Aerated Compost tea appears INFERIOR [you read that right inferior] compared to fertilizer in its ability to increase microbial biomass, microbial activity and a few other things. Hmmm Id been told that microbes hated synthetic fertilizer. I guess not all microbes agree. In terms of the fertilizer used, it was a 30-10-7. I didnt see it explicitly stated in the article, but Id bet it was a synthetic fertilizer called Arbor Green Pro. It was applied at what I would consider a heavy dose.
Aerated compost tea, or at least the compost tea tested in this article, did contain a significant amount of nutrients.
On the up side for compost tea it was pointed out that compost tea treatments might help a poor soil retain more nitrogen. Maybe but the authors also pointed out that only the fertilizer treatment appeared to deliver enough available nitrogen to potentially meet tree needs in the Bt horizon soils (in other words poorer soils). Interesting but if we just added compost wed have a better soil anyway, which brings us to the next point .
The compost tea tested contained only a small portion of the microorganisms that compost does.
So whats the take home message from this article? This wasn't explicitly stated in the article -- in fact I'm not even sure the authors would agree with me -- but to me the important message is 1) ADD COMPOST and 2) IF YOU NEED TO ADD NUTRIENTS ADD FERTILIZER NOT COMPOST TEA (though Id go with a nice renewable organic rather than a synthetic).
Where's the methodology for the compost tea?
Of course, just adding compost gives a better soil tilth and provides organic matter which a tea doesen't, but over large surfaces, I can see the tea edging ahead of compost applications for soil.
Compost tea is not fertilizer, you must apply fertilizer seperately. Basically this article snippet only claims you can't sustain a trees Nitrogen needs with only compost tea, and then lacks any further information to allow anyone to understand what was actually done here.
Compost tea is the (unnecessary)catalyst to help process your organic(or synthetic) fertilizer and soil organic matter. For dead/inert substrares and soils it serves more purpose than in already live, wild soil.
edit: I'd also like to point out compost tea enthusiasts are not trying to sell you anything, fertilizer corporations are.
Of course, just adding compost gives a better soil tilth and provides organic matter which a tea doesen't, but over large surfaces, I can see the tea edging ahead of compost applications for soil.
Compost tea is not fertilizer, you must apply fertilizer seperately. Basically this article snippet only claims you can't sustain a trees Nitrogen needs with only compost tea, and then lacks any further information to allow anyone to understand what was actually done here.
Compost tea is the (unnecessary)catalyst to help process your organic(or synthetic) fertilizer and soil organic matter. For dead/inert substrares and soils it serves more purpose than in already live, wild soil.
edit: I'd also like to point out compost tea enthusiasts are not trying to sell you anything, fertilizer corporations are.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Afka takes on --> “Laboratory Assays on the Effects of Aerated Compost Tea and Fertilization on Biochemical Properties and Denitrification in a Silt Loam and Bt Clay Loam Soils” by Bryant Scharenbroch, William Treaurer, Michelle Catania and Vincent Brand. 
Lions 4, Christians 1
Wrong. What do you think compost tea contains that makes it so beneficial? That's right, chemicals and of course microbes. Those very microbes are air borne anyway. Rainwater is good source of microbes as well as nitrates.
Oboy, here we go with the "evil corporations" propaganda.
Lions 4, Christians 1
Corso312
Well-Known Member
the compost tea is kind of surprising to me....i have never tried tea but i was thinking of making a worm farm next spring for castings...i have said for years that super thrive is a myth and a waste of money, i have tested superthrive vs no superthrive on clones from the same mother...all other nutes were identical and there was zero difference in taste or yield.
mccumcumber
Well-Known Member
I don't even see how a compost tea would work. What's the theory behind it, dumping a bunch of microbes into your soil? Sounds like horseshit to me. Maybe it would work if you put it in your medium 30 or so days prior to planting something, but the whole "organic" process (for lack of a better word) takes a shit ton of time. You need your soil to attract certain microbes that will exude "food" for other microbes which in turn will either be eaten by nematodes (probably one of the most beneficial of the little motherfuckers) and other microbes or just die and decompose. Once this happens the "food" will exudate into the soil and the roots can use it.
Just dumping a bunch of microbes and fungus into your plants wont do shit. Albeit, chemical/organic ferts don't really do too much either, and those salts will do some damage to your soil life. But the immediate benefits out weigh the immediate losses. However, you will find that your plant becomes more and more reliant on nutes... so I don't really know if I would go down that path myself. Dr. Elaine Ingham, OSU, has a whole shit ton to say about the subject.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=159846&highlight=tomhill
^Everyone knows of Tom Hill I'm assuming. Well, he doesn't add shit. He has his soil recipe that he lets cook and lets nature do all the rest. Really, if you find yourself doing anything more than that, you're doing too much.
Edit: He says he adds molasses to attract beneficial microbes during veg. And once a month he adds a tiny amount of calcium to his plants. But really you could just put in some extra cal at the start to achieve the same, if not better effect.
Just dumping a bunch of microbes and fungus into your plants wont do shit. Albeit, chemical/organic ferts don't really do too much either, and those salts will do some damage to your soil life. But the immediate benefits out weigh the immediate losses. However, you will find that your plant becomes more and more reliant on nutes... so I don't really know if I would go down that path myself. Dr. Elaine Ingham, OSU, has a whole shit ton to say about the subject.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=159846&highlight=tomhill
^Everyone knows of Tom Hill I'm assuming. Well, he doesn't add shit. He has his soil recipe that he lets cook and lets nature do all the rest. Really, if you find yourself doing anything more than that, you're doing too much.
Edit: He says he adds molasses to attract beneficial microbes during veg. And once a month he adds a tiny amount of calcium to his plants. But really you could just put in some extra cal at the start to achieve the same, if not better effect.
Samwell Seed Well
Well-Known Member
i have heard this argument before an ecosystem needs to be living and established to have a full effect on plant . . . . .. . . ?
having a lot of calcium present can lock out other essential macro nutrients . . . . .?
any thoughts?
having a lot of calcium present can lock out other essential macro nutrients . . . . .?
any thoughts?
mccumcumber
Well-Known Member
Very true, organic matter by itself won't do anything. The bugs that it attracts eat the material, and they, in turn, attract even more bugs which help exude "food" for the roots. If you dump a bunch of organic matter into your plants nothing will happen until it is eaten by microbes which will then get eaten.
That's why he only adds tiny amounts. I don't even know if I would add anything to be 100% honest.
boneheadbob
Well-Known Member
American Pride by Fox Farm organic nutes
I would like to mix this in a bag of organic soil such as roots or OFGreat
for all types of flowers, time-released American Pride Dry Fertilizer (9-6-6) includes earthworm castings, bat guano and cottonseed meal to produce dark green foliage and abundant blooms. American Pride is also specially formulated with alfalfa, iron and linoleic acid, making it particularly beneficial to roses. As it decomposes, American Pride develops more nitrate nitrogen which is more suitable for flowers than vegetables.
Cottonseed Meal, Blood Meal, Earthworm Castings, Bat Guano, Ammonium Sulphate, Calcium Nitrate, Ammonium Phosphate, Treble Phosphate, Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulphate, Potassium Chloride, Ferrous Sulphate, Zinc Sulphate, Copper Sulphate, Manganese Oxysulphate, Calcium Carbonate, Alfalfa Meal, Ureaform, Urea, Potassium Nitrate, Zinc Sulphate, Copper Sulphate, Manganese, Oxysulphate, Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Carbonate
I would like to mix this in a bag of organic soil such as roots or OFGreat
for all types of flowers, time-released American Pride Dry Fertilizer (9-6-6) includes earthworm castings, bat guano and cottonseed meal to produce dark green foliage and abundant blooms. American Pride is also specially formulated with alfalfa, iron and linoleic acid, making it particularly beneficial to roses. As it decomposes, American Pride develops more nitrate nitrogen which is more suitable for flowers than vegetables.
Cottonseed Meal, Blood Meal, Earthworm Castings, Bat Guano, Ammonium Sulphate, Calcium Nitrate, Ammonium Phosphate, Treble Phosphate, Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulphate, Potassium Chloride, Ferrous Sulphate, Zinc Sulphate, Copper Sulphate, Manganese Oxysulphate, Calcium Carbonate, Alfalfa Meal, Ureaform, Urea, Potassium Nitrate, Zinc Sulphate, Copper Sulphate, Manganese, Oxysulphate, Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Carbonate
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Another shameless ad from a vendor hawking his stuff.
boneheadbob
Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben
I just started growin less then a year ago. I have not used bloombuster or rockhard.
I am useing your advice. I bought mel Franks book and am trying to grow organic.
I honestly thought that was a good product to use.
It is not very expensive
I just started growin less then a year ago. I have not used bloombuster or rockhard.
I am useing your advice. I bought mel Franks book and am trying to grow organic.
I honestly thought that was a good product to use.
It is not very expensive
boneheadbob
Well-Known Member
PS I am not a vendor 
Just a longtime smoker who got a MM card here in AZ and is now legal to grow, nut I have a lot to learn.
I believe I read in your threads that you have used ferts similar to this and you added them to your soil beforehand so you would just add water for most all of the grow
Just a longtime smoker who got a MM card here in AZ and is now legal to grow, nut I have a lot to learn.
I believe I read in your threads that you have used ferts similar to this and you added them to your soil beforehand so you would just add water for most all of the grow
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
I understand you're not a vendor, just commenting on the ad. It might be good but for an organic blend it sure has a lot of chemicals! (and that's OK with me)PS I am not a vendor
Just a longtime smoker who got a MM card here in AZ and is now legal to grow, nut I have a lot to learn.
I believe I read in your threads that you have used ferts similar to this and you added them to your soil beforehand so you would just add water for most all of the grow
doc111
Well-Known Member
lmfao!!!!!! Yep! There are an awful lot of "chemical" nutrients in that organic fertilizer!
Don't worry bob, I'm sure it's a fine fertilizer and will grow a fine product. Don't get me started on the whole "organic vs. chemical" argument.
boneheadbob
Well-Known Member
It looked like an ad. You are right.
I actually got that from two different sources. The first half is the ad.
The list is from another forum and it may or may not be true.
http://www.gardenscure.com/420/plant-food-nutrients/104152-fox-farm-american-pride-time-release.html
I actually got that from two different sources. The first half is the ad.
The list is from another forum and it may or may not be true.
http://www.gardenscure.com/420/plant-food-nutrients/104152-fox-farm-american-pride-time-release.html
boneheadbob
Well-Known Member
lmfao!!!!!! Yep! There are an awful lot of "chemical" nutrients in that organic fertilizer!
Don't worry bob, I'm sure it's a fine fertilizer and will grow a fine product. Don't get me started on the whole "organic vs. chemical" argument.
Thanks, I was gonna use it as topdress for SS or add to soil before planting.
Now we are above my paygrade so far when it comes to organic vs chemical nutes.
doc111
Well-Known Member
I've never used that particular fert before but I looked it up at the FF website and couldn't find out all the ingredients. It does have some organic goodies, like worm castings and bat guano, but being that it is timed release, it probably has some "chemical" nutes in it as well. Some will claim that organically grown bud is superior to chemically grown bud. The funny thing is that a lot of the same folks that claim this are also the same ones who are unwittingly using some "chemical" nutes in their line up. I honestly can't tell that much of a difference between chemically and organically grown bud. Happy growing my friend!
mccumcumber
Well-Known Member
Organic nutes doesn't even make sense. Again, "organic" (for lack of better term) is a process. You are relying on the microbiology to supply your roots with food. Basically, you want a bunch of tiny bugs hanging out in your rhizosphere that will exude food for you roots to eat once they are eaten by their predator bugs, or just die naturally. Just cause you dump a bunch of organic material in your soil doesn't mean it will do anything. Chemical fertilizers, however, come along with food that the plants can eat already! So once they get into the rhizosphere what can be absorbed is, and what can't kind of just sits around, and may get used later.
Funny enough, the way that chemical ferts get into a soil is by their electrical charge. Humus and clay particles carry a negative charge, so they attract cations, such as: Ca (calcium) K (potassium) Na (sodium) Mg (magnesium) Fe (iron) NH4 (ammonium) and good ole H (hydrogen). However, what does not get attracted by the humus and clay is Ci (chloride) NO3 (Nitrate) SO4 (sulfate) PO4 (phosphate). What does this have to do with plants? Well, roots have their own electric charge and they exchange their cations for the cations attached to the humus and clay and eat them up! They also attract some of the anions that in your solution, however, a lot of the get displaced due to their charge. The roots exchange their cations, H, for the cations (nutes) in the clay and humus in your soil. The rate at which a plant can do this is referred to as its CEC. A good soil will have a CEC of around 50-100, meaning it will start absorbing the shit out of the nutes around it.
What does this mean? Every time your root exchanges a cation, H, your ph goes up, and your soil becomes more alkaline. Therefore it is necessary, when using nutes, to have a proper balance of cations and anions. That's why dumbass: "PHOSPHOROUS LOAD!!!!!!!!111ONE!" nutes, I've literally seen 0-50-0 in the hydro store, are fucking retarded. You are damaging the shit out of your soil and the excess anions in this case will make your plant look like crap cause it won't absorb the rest of its necessary nutes. Remember, there are 14 different nutes that help the mj plant grow. Not just one. Also, an imbalance of either cations or anions in your soil means that certain, very necessary, microbiology will no longer live in your soil. Because they too carry an electric charge. Balance is the key.
As a side note, don't go crazy with your CEC, 100 is about as much as you want it to be. Once it gets higher than that your soil will have extremely poor drainage and very little room for 02 which is essential for root development. Again, balance is the key. Don't look to grow super duper weed, cause you will end up with schwag. If you know your soil's PH then you know what nutes it needs; however, you could just start with a balanced PH and not do anything to it whatsoever, and if you have enough soil for your plant to grow from start to finish then you'll end up with absolutely no problems through flowering.
The nutes may be claiming to be "organic" b/c they are not salt based and won't kill any of your microbiology. That really doesn't mean shit if you plan on using nutes throughout your whole cycle. What is dieing off due to the salt is being replaced by the nute anyway and doesn't need to be there if you plan on giving your plant nutrition that way. What is a total waste of money though is to have a shit ton of organic matter going and then adding a bunch of chemical shit right on the get go. If you spent time and money making an "organic" mix then you should at least see what it does by just adding water. Remember, with nutes you are still messing with your charge, which you need to be careful about. MAKE SURE the nutes you are using are balanced! I'm pretty sure Mel Frank describes the ratios that you need specifically for cannabis in his books. I really don't know much about the subject of nutes, because I don't find the need to use them all too often. However, Uncle Ben suggests jack's classic. You can tell by his avatar that he knows his shit, so I would go with that.
Really the take home message here is: keep it simple stupid. A large amount of base soil and water is all you need. If you want to go fancy, make a soil mix, let the bugs do their thing for about 2-4 weeks, and test it out. See how it works, and try adding what you think it needs, if it needs anything. Cannabis has been growing 34 million years without human help. And lots of plants that just grow in the wild are actually better looking than a lot of first timers hydro grows because they try to do too much.
Funny enough, the way that chemical ferts get into a soil is by their electrical charge. Humus and clay particles carry a negative charge, so they attract cations, such as: Ca (calcium) K (potassium) Na (sodium) Mg (magnesium) Fe (iron) NH4 (ammonium) and good ole H (hydrogen). However, what does not get attracted by the humus and clay is Ci (chloride) NO3 (Nitrate) SO4 (sulfate) PO4 (phosphate). What does this have to do with plants? Well, roots have their own electric charge and they exchange their cations for the cations attached to the humus and clay and eat them up! They also attract some of the anions that in your solution, however, a lot of the get displaced due to their charge. The roots exchange their cations, H, for the cations (nutes) in the clay and humus in your soil. The rate at which a plant can do this is referred to as its CEC. A good soil will have a CEC of around 50-100, meaning it will start absorbing the shit out of the nutes around it.
What does this mean? Every time your root exchanges a cation, H, your ph goes up, and your soil becomes more alkaline. Therefore it is necessary, when using nutes, to have a proper balance of cations and anions. That's why dumbass: "PHOSPHOROUS LOAD!!!!!!!!111ONE!" nutes, I've literally seen 0-50-0 in the hydro store, are fucking retarded. You are damaging the shit out of your soil and the excess anions in this case will make your plant look like crap cause it won't absorb the rest of its necessary nutes. Remember, there are 14 different nutes that help the mj plant grow. Not just one. Also, an imbalance of either cations or anions in your soil means that certain, very necessary, microbiology will no longer live in your soil. Because they too carry an electric charge. Balance is the key.
As a side note, don't go crazy with your CEC, 100 is about as much as you want it to be. Once it gets higher than that your soil will have extremely poor drainage and very little room for 02 which is essential for root development. Again, balance is the key. Don't look to grow super duper weed, cause you will end up with schwag. If you know your soil's PH then you know what nutes it needs; however, you could just start with a balanced PH and not do anything to it whatsoever, and if you have enough soil for your plant to grow from start to finish then you'll end up with absolutely no problems through flowering.
The nutes may be claiming to be "organic" b/c they are not salt based and won't kill any of your microbiology. That really doesn't mean shit if you plan on using nutes throughout your whole cycle. What is dieing off due to the salt is being replaced by the nute anyway and doesn't need to be there if you plan on giving your plant nutrition that way. What is a total waste of money though is to have a shit ton of organic matter going and then adding a bunch of chemical shit right on the get go. If you spent time and money making an "organic" mix then you should at least see what it does by just adding water. Remember, with nutes you are still messing with your charge, which you need to be careful about. MAKE SURE the nutes you are using are balanced! I'm pretty sure Mel Frank describes the ratios that you need specifically for cannabis in his books. I really don't know much about the subject of nutes, because I don't find the need to use them all too often. However, Uncle Ben suggests jack's classic. You can tell by his avatar that he knows his shit, so I would go with that.
Really the take home message here is: keep it simple stupid. A large amount of base soil and water is all you need. If you want to go fancy, make a soil mix, let the bugs do their thing for about 2-4 weeks, and test it out. See how it works, and try adding what you think it needs, if it needs anything. Cannabis has been growing 34 million years without human help. And lots of plants that just grow in the wild are actually better looking than a lot of first timers hydro grows because they try to do too much.