Let's talk serious SCROG

[profgrow]

quick question guys. i have a scrog coming into it's 4th week of flower. at what point should you stop trimming?? +rep to useful answers. thanks

It seems a lot of us differ in opinion on when to and when not to trim.

Personally, I trim all the way until the flush, removing fan leaves that are covering bud sites etc, I leave small bud "clumps" on branches because its just a pain but feel free to trim those off as well. The only reason I don't trim during the flush is because I want the plant spending all its energy on resin production, some will argue trimming won't effect this but I play it a bit safe at the end, its a starving plant, the substrate is neutral, all of its nutrient is being produced from its fan leaves, cutting them off just gives it that much less to work with in my opinion. I will admit I may be wrong but this is how I have done it in the past and the result are always very potent buds, no grassy smell and clean burning.

As a side note, if you are still having to hack large limbs that just aren't producing there may be an underlying problem, low fert or imbalances in nutrition. Nitrogen isn't needed too heavy in mid flower but none at all can cause deficiencies. Phosphorus is needed in relatively large amounts to produce dense bud growth, stringy/fluffy buds are often caused by low P levels.

 

[profgrow]

Tried to take pics of trichs on my Afghan/skunks in flower... after 12 shots with a crummy digital camera shooting through a handheld 60x magnifier (yes I know i made it super complicated) this was the best shot I got.

 

[mrbluesuk]

It seems a lot of us differ in opinion on when to and when not to trim.

Personally, I trim all the way until the flush, removing fan leaves that are covering bud sites etc, I leave small bud "clumps" on branches because its just a pain but feel free to trim those off as well. The only reason I don't trim during the flush is because I want the plant spending all its energy on resin production, some will argue trimming won't effect this but I play it a bit safe at the end, its a starving plant, the substrate is neutral, all of its nutrient is being produced from its fan leaves, cutting them off just gives it that much less to work with in my opinion. I will admit I may be wrong but this is how I have done it in the past and the result are always very potent buds, no grassy smell and clean burning.

As a side note, if you are still having to hack large limbs that just aren't producing there may be an underlying problem, low fert or imbalances in nutrition. Nitrogen isn't needed too heavy in mid flower but none at all can cause deficiencies. Phosphorus is needed in relatively large amounts to produce dense bud growth, stringy/fluffy buds are often caused by low P levels.

good answer, very helpful m8 thanks. already trimmed weak branches just dnt want to remove too much bud or stress her. ill continue with the odd leaf trim till flush thanks.

 

[luv2grow]

So I started doing some reading on that 13/11 vs 12/12 light cycles. Im wondering what time length to run on 13/11. Is it just the first 2 weeks? From what i've read (Not ure how correct this is) it slows flower production down. Does it give a better quality overall? And while we wait 11 days into the flipHad to push the indica a bit early in the screen to get the cycle going. It finishes in 60 days as where the hog on the left takes 90-110 booo

 

[mike91sr]

I used 11/13 for the first 10 days. You did mean 11on/13off right? My understanding is that it prevents any sort of confusion as to whether or not its time to flower. Nothing to compare to so I cant really say whether or not it made a difference though.

 

[legallyflying]

Interesting. I actually go. 13 on 11 off for first 2 weeks then 12/12. Then 13 off/11 on for last two. 12 hours of dark is plenty to allow flower hormones to build up enough to trigger flowering. Never had 13/11 not trigger flower set.

 

[profgrow]

I personally have never done anything but 24 and 12/12, 24 to veg then 24 of dark before setting to 12/12. From what I have always heard the 24 dark before 12/12 makes sure the plant goes into flower, i also use it as an opportunity to reset the "dawn" depending on the time of year, if spring forward or fall back will hit halfway through my cycle I like to make sure my "lights on" starts at 6 am after the time change but thats personal preference. I have heard of ppl slowly lowering the amount of light towards the end, some getting down to 9 hours on in the last week, never seen a difference in quality from this but its hard to tell unless you run a side by side.

If legally has good luck with it I would do what he does, I'm prob going to stick with 24-24-12/12 but mostly because its worked for me and if it works why change it. If someone has an incredibly compelling argument as to why to do 11/13 I will be more than happy to rethink my position.

 

[luv2grow]

I was looking at 13 on 11 off for the flip. From what I was reading the hormones of the plant that trigger flowering can still be held up to 14 hours of light , but it slows the flower process down (after the stretch from what i was reading). I guess the way im interpreting it @ 13/11 you still get the hormone increase and the extra hour of light for maybe some extra growth./maybe even help fill the screen a bit more if its running short. I was just curious about some strategies. During the flip I cut the light time by 30min a day for 12 days. Works for me since I run 18/6 during veg. I think its a good topic since scrog is a "get the most bang for your buck" discipline.

 

[luv2grow]

Came across this process as well. Link in the first post.
https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/477361-alternative-lighting-schedule.html

 

[legallyflying]

my two cents... the plant is either going to flower or it isn't. once the critical darkness period is reached, then it starts to flower. Less light in the end will cause a plant to mature a little faster. I never go less than 10 on though. I read a paper done in the 80's where less than 10 hours of light caused a drammtic decrease in yield and overall THC so I'll just stick with that.

a 24 hour dark period is unnecessary and fucks with the plants circadian rythmm even more than going to 12/12 or whatever. I've been alive for 39 years and I have to remember a day in early fall where the planet was blacked out for a whole 24 hours.

Same goes for the whole 24 of light in veg. Plants can really use a dark period and the rate of photosynthesis really slows down after 20 hours of constant light but some people just really think that there plants are going to just keep growing and growing and growing. Its the circadian rythmm thing again, the plant will shift from carb sysnthesis to carb assimilation regardless of having your lights on. I encourage you to google it.

Can you get more growth in a shorter period of time with 24 on..yes, but the actual increase is not worth it to me as you are getting much less bang for your KW buck and its hard on your grow gear.

 

[profgrow]

my two cents... the plant is either going to flower or it isn't. once the critical darkness period is reached, then it starts to flower. Less light in the end will cause a plant to mature a little faster. I never go less than 10 on though. I read a paper done in the 80's where less than 10 hours of light caused a drammtic decrease in yield and overall THC so I'll just stick with that.

a 24 hour dark period is unnecessary and fucks with the plants circadian rythmm even more than going to 12/12 or whatever. I've been alive for 39 years and I have to remember a day in early fall where the planet was blacked out for a whole 24 hours.

Same goes for the whole 24 of light in veg. Plants can really use a dark period and the rate of photosynthesis really slows down after 20 hours of constant light but some people just really think that there plants are going to just keep growing and growing and growing. Its the circadian rythmm thing again, the plant will shift from carb sysnthesis to carb assimilation regardless of having your lights on. I encourage you to google it.

Can you get more growth in a shorter period of time with 24 on..yes, but the actual increase is not worth it to me as you are getting much less bang for your KW buck and its hard on your grow gear.

Fair argument, I did google it (not because i didn't trust but for more information) and found that 24 hours of dark can cause issues (there is a relatively large disagreement about it among growers but from botanists its pretty solid) The biggest issue growers have with it is that it almost completely stops the stretch, not a real problem if your vegged plant is where you want it but I am experiencing it now in a pretty serious way, the flowers of my U shaped scrog are not more than 2-3 inches taller than they were when i flipped. At first I figured it was a nutrition/lighting issue but now that I have read more into it I know that it was my "blackout period" that caused this massive halt in vertical growth.

Once again, I can admit when I was wrong. I have done what I was taught and the longer I grow the more I find my teachers were doing what they had been taught and not what was necessarily right. It seems you can do things wrong for a long period of time without so much as an inkling that there is a problem, I see this in my day job over and over again. Willingness to learn is how we improve on our craft and I will take this, and many other things I have learned over the course of this thread, into account for future grows.

 

[luv2grow]

That is what im on RIU for. Its nice to find good knowledge even if we or you have been doing it for awhile. There is always something to learn in the long run. I learn new knowledge and techniques everyday in this thread.
Just picked up the new reflector. I'll post some pics of this beast when i get it hung tonight. Getting closer to a finished setup every week.

 

[legallyflying]

Well, fortunately I didn't have anyone to teach me how to grow buds so I didn't learn anything right or wrong. I just spend ALLOT of time researching and reading, like a FUCK load of time. There is soooo much bullshit to sift through that I rarely just take anyone's word for it. Well, there are a select few individuals that I completely trust on this website.

having a botany degree and a science background also never hurts. There is a limit to the degree of manipulation that will actually cause benefits. All of that weird lighting schedules and this and that have never really been shown to be of much use. Proper environmental conditions that steer the plant, strong lights, and solid nutrition is what yields the best results.

veg: high temps, high humidity, lots of co2, light nutes
early flower: moderate temps, lower humidity, lots of co2, strong but not burning nutes
foliar feed carbs EVERY WEEK during flower
Late flowering (4-6): lower temps (7 high co2, LOW humidity (<40%), strong nutes
Late late flowering (7- same temps and humidity, REALLY strong nutes... to limit water absorption and increase oil production. Raise the lights a little.
Flush, harvest, dry, sell.

 

[lilindian]

Well, fortunately I didn't have anyone to teach me how to grow buds so I didn't learn anything right or wrong. I just spend ALLOT of time researching and reading, like a FUCK load of time. There is soooo much bullshit to sift through that I rarely just take anyone's word for it. Well, there are a select few individuals that I completely trust on this website.

having a botany degree and a science background also never hurts. There is a limit to the degree of manipulation that will actually cause benefits. All of that weird lighting schedules and this and that have never really been shown to be of much use. Proper environmental conditions that steer the plant, strong lights, and solid nutrition is what yields the best results.

veg: high temps, high humidity, lots of co2, light nutes
early flower: moderate temps, lower humidity, lots of co2, strong but not burning nutes
foliar feed carbs EVERY WEEK during flower
Late flowering (4-6): lower temps (7 high co2, LOW humidity (<40%), strong nutes
Late late flowering (7- same temps and humidity, REALLY strong nutes... to limit water absorption and increase oil production. Raise the lights a little.
Flush, harvest, dry, sell.

I'd have to agree with 99% of this post, should end "flush, harvest, dry, cure, smoke" though!

 

[GreatwhiteNorth]

Well, fortunately I didn't have anyone to teach me how to grow buds so I didn't learn anything right or wrong.

There is a great deal to be said for not having to "Unlearn" bad/faulty habits.

 

[mike91sr]

legally, what specifically are you foliar feeding in flower? I've never heard of this before. Not doubting, just interested. Also here to learn from experience of others, thats why i like following grows better than just reading a post from some asshole on the internet.

and gwn....your signature quotes get me everytime.

 

[legallyflying]

well unfortunately weed and I just don't seem to get along much anymore

I ahve two foliar treatments that I use throughout flower. Kelp extract (lights off, twice a week) and liquid light and penetrator with the lights on, usually once a week but twice a week during the heavy bulk up periods.

liquid light is essentially a carb with a little extra stuff that the DM rep wouldn't tell me about. But I have to say that it works wonders, the plants just immediately perk up and head towards the lights. I have also noticed a significant increase in bud size and yield.

However, save all your cash until you have a proper co2 system. That's really the best bang for the buck!

 

[luv2grow]

Just finished hanging this bitch. Coverage is amazing. It just needs a upgraded light system. The overhang is intentional... Need to go grab a dust shroom for the hood.And to retouch on the pvc issue for frames. Its definitely releasing gasses. Im seeing alot of deformitys in the fan leaves directly over the pvc areas. going to build a new screen setup.

 

[Endur0xX]

The plastic coating on the frame of that Lst/scrog reminded me of an important subject we haven't touched on, Screen styles!

Let's start with standard chicken wire pros and cons:

Pro- its cheap as dirt and available anywhere

Con- its very flexible and often needs to be tied down in the middle to keep the plant from pushing it up.

Pro- its very fexable... wait thats a con, w/e its a pro too, flexibility makes it easy to manipulate to the shape of your room/lighting system (think double U shaped setup under 2 lights)

Con- exposed metals are a rust hazard, rust and any heavy metals in the screen can damage plants, effect PH and are very effective at holding heat in the room.

Ok, i ran out of pros for chicken wire, its not the best route to go in my opinion, the dangers seem to out weight the pluses, nothing hurts worse than having a half done crop that get torched by a bad setup.

Now lets talk about temporary fence netting:

Pro- also cheap, can be procured almost anywhere.

Con- needs to be tightly strung and tied down in multiple places to keep the net in the shape you want.

Pro- waterproof and never spoils, just clean it with antibacterial soap between grows.

Con- some plastics give off a gas at higher temperatures, this can kill a harvest if temp gets too high near the netting (this is only an issue early in the grow while your lights are closest to the canopy)

All in all fence netting is a cheap and effective way of SCROGing, some drawbacks but those are made up by the cost.

Now we will go over my personal favorite; plastic coated heavy wire shelf material:

Pro- hard plastic coating on a rigid metal frame gives you waterproofing with a very tense surface area, in most situations this does not need to be tied down.

Con- its heavy, if not secured properly it can fall and break your stalks

Pro- generally has smaller dimension openings, allowing for more tops than the larger chicken wire or fence netting.

Con- it is considerably harder to come by, i got mine from a small greenhouse setup i bought for around 30 bucks, this gave me around 18 sq ft of the material and a bunch of other crap i didn't need- metal frame tubes etc.

Other types of screens i have seen used but not experimented with:

Nylon netting: this can be picked up at most army surplus stores or hunting supply stores

Industrial steel grid: expensive but solid, last screen you will ever buy kinda thing

Cloth string net: Mold hazard! stay away from using any cloth/absorbent material in your grow room.

Fishing filament: I would just worry about the pressure from the plant growing cutting the stalk at any point, thin nets can be dangerous.

Trellis nets: these i have seen often in single plant semi-scrogs, they are sold at any garden store, they look like a tomato cage with a coiled net on top, i think they are used for decorative gardening.

So ya, there's that topic, just stuff to think about while building your net, just because it has holes doesn't make it the right thing for scrog... huh huh holes.

I used the chicken wire, I hope you are wrong though, mind you it's not like I spent much money,... but it shouldnt rust though it says it's galvanized !

YARDGARD 1 in. x 4 ft. x 50 ft. 20-Gauge Galvanized Poultry Netting
Model # 308431B Internet # 202515212 Store SKU # 274674
Write The First Review
$38.27 /RL-Roll

 

[legallyflying]

I used galvanized tubing (conduit) its cheap, thin and rigid and 2x3" plastic coated fence material from home depot. Zip tied mesh to frame, hung from ceiling with wire.

I have seen 1" chicken wire cause nightmares when scroging. Just to small