True HP Aero For 2011

[r0m30]

r0m, have you tried acetyl nozzles?

I'm using the Tefen currently, I thought they were made of acetyl but can't find anywhere that it actually says that just "high tech plastic"

 

[Atomizer]

Just out of curiosity, does Botanicare, C.A.P, GH, atomix, all pay royalties to AgriHouse for marketing their systems as "Aeroponics"? Exactly what patents are we infringing upon?.

None as far as it goes unless you call it Genesis or another of his trademarks. In the interests of having accurate aero information on the thread, here`s a quote by Stoner himself in his1982 aeroponics patent (United States Patent 4332105), which shows he couldnt claim to have invented aeroponics because it was already out there in the public domain decades before.

Aeroponics, or the growth of plants in air has been known for some time. F. W. Went describes experimental apparatus for growing plant roots in a vaporized nutrient in a publication entitled "The Experimental Control of Plant Growth" (1957)

There are at least 2 others that superceded Stoner into aeroponics even though he was the first to commercialise it. John Pewer grew aeroponic tomatoes on the isle of wight in 1976 and Kings Nurseries (also Isle of Wight) grew strawberrries aeroponically in 1977. There were probably others that never got press coverage.

 

[Mike Young]

Yea, my first attempt at cloning has been less than I had hoped for too, about to start another round with some changes that I hope will improve my results.


I'm thinking of trying those DIG nozzles in my cloner. Didn't you say you got your nozzles locally? I can't find DIG nozzles at any of the big box hardware stores. Are you using the barb or 10-32 attachment? How are you attaching them to the JG tube?

The barbed fit tight into the end of the JG tubing. I was putting a small zip tie on them at first, until I tried to pull one off. I had to cut the tubing to remove it. Also saves on fittings, but you probably have plenty of those. I don't know why they're not at your local box store. There is a shitload of dig stuff where I shop. They're like a #52 I think. You can also buy them online, of course.

 

[kmbud]

A question for all of you. What brand of nutes are you using, and what formula are you using if you don't mind me asking. I am putting my system together, probally a couple of weeks away from test firing. I will be using RO water. I need to start thinking about nutes so I need an idea of of what works from you guys. Brand, formula, ppm, ect. Thanks.

 

[aerojunkie]

I'm using the Tefen currently, I thought they were made of acetyl but can't find anywhere that it actually says that just "high tech plastic"

Yes, tefen are acetyl. Tefen is what I prefer for cloning, what seems to be the problem with your system? Are you recycling your res? Are you using Gel or Powder hormone? What are your mist cycles? Are you using a humidome?

 

[aerojunkie]

None as far as it goes unless you call it Genesis or another of his trademarks. In the interests of having accurate aero information on the thread, here`s a quote by Stoner himself in his1982 aeroponics patent (United States Patent 4332105), which shows he couldnt claim to have invented aeroponics because it was already out there in the public domain decades before.



There are at least 2 others that superceded Stoner into aeroponics even though he was the first to commercialise it. John Pewer grew aeroponic tomatoes on the isle of wight in 1976 and Kings Nurseries (also Isle of Wight) grew strawberrries aeroponically in 1977. There were probably others that never got press coverage.

I guess its off to manufacturing and production for me!

 

[r0m30]

what seems to be the problem with your system?

Honestly, I think a lot of it is just inexperience, not knowing how to cut the clones, when to move the lights, when to reduce the cycle etc.

Are you recycling your res? Are you using Gel or Powder hormone? What are your mist cycles? Are you using a humidome?

I'm running RO only in a recirculating system. It's a 5 Gallon bucket with 4 Tefen's around the top of the bucket, no humidome. I start with a 15s/2:45m cycle until they sprout roots, 1/4 strength nutes @ 5s/2:55m working my way to full strength nutes @ 3s/3:57m.

I just ordered a UFO for better lighting (currently using 2 24w CFL's in a brooder reflector). My first try had 1 of three make it to the point where I could move it into the flower pod but it's really stretchy that's why I ordered the light. I'm going to start another test soon after making a few changes based on what I think I learned this time around.

 

[r0m30]

The barbed fit tight into the end of the JG tubing. I was putting a small zip tie on them at first, until I tried to pull one off. I had to cut the tubing to remove it. Also saves on fittings, but you probably have plenty of those. I don't know why they're not at your local box store. There is a shitload of dig stuff where I shop. They're like a #52 I think. You can also buy them online, of course.

Thanks, maybe it's because I live in a small town and the big boxes aren't that big. I'll have to try the "big city" a few miles away. One of the things that appeals to me about the DIG is local accessibility. At .8 gph that's roughly equivalent to the flow rate of the Tefen and I wouldn't have any issues if they dripped a little in the cloner.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Yes we're all emulating a trademark and copyright of AgriHouse, which is aeroponics, which they own, which we're emulating, perhaps we're playing with misting times, and chamber size but other than that, it's the exact same thing.

If this is going to turn into a Pod Racerish like cult, please tell me, I will leave.


r0m and BD have mentioned the pressure switch, and relief valve, and their gauges, and what they were going to try to use, other than that no other thread has specifically talked about these parts, their connection types and sizes, or where you would source them.

Honestly I've read all those threads and I do feel a little offended, this is not rocket science, here is a the system mock up

Res - > Filter -> Pump -> Pressure Switch + Gauge -> Tank -> Relief Valve + Gauge -> Y or Solenoid(s) -> Solenoid(s) or Y -> Lines + Elbows or Tees, or Straights, ETC + Misters. Outside of specifics very easy concept.

Again thanks for the help, once I have a complete list of parts that I can verify I'll post for those that are having the problems I went through finding parts.

No man, I tried to be as disarming as possible in my comment, but I may have failed. I meant no negativity towards you- but rather trying to pull your mind to what I believe is the most important but overlooked issue in aeroponics. When you list the components and say it's not so hard, I believe you are missing the exact point I'm trying to make. It is true that in this thread I am describing the use of the same components as say Stoner, however, it is the fine conceptual details that count. Atomizer has ingrained it into my mind, and even without building it for myself yet, the logic is entirely sound, and situation after situation I have seen in many other threads the difference between people who focused on the wetness of the roots, and those who didn't- ended up with roots same as hydroponics. Perhaps they had some fishboning, but they are always too wet, and never form the fuzzies. All the great differences in HPA are associated with the fuzzy root structure- and that is what I really mean to focus on in this thread. Perhaps the name HPA is even misleading nowadays, because too many HPA guys don't achieve the fuzzies. Perhaps we should call this "Super-HPA". Anyway foresaken lion- I was only trying to tell you that I believe you need to put more attention to that detail if you truly are wanting to achieve excellence in HPA, and you're not the only one- most everyone doesn't seem to get this important point, and therefore will not ever get those added benefits. There is hardly any similarities between this thread and podracers, btw- he was quite off track from exactly what I am attempting to focus on. It was a long time ago, however, since he was trying to pioneer HPA for the general public, so I don't fault him except for his attitude and narcissism.
Anyway- the only reason I brought it up was trying to help in earnest, not to criticize... I can tell you are putting alot of thought into this, as I also do- and thats why were all here trying to put our heads together. I just think some of the most important details needed to be reminded. Of course I can be wrong, and only once I finish building my rig will we be more sure, but I have enough evidence presented to me that I strongly believe this is the right path. Perhaps the most important piece to this puzzle is Atomizer's equation that tells the optimal amount of liquid to be misted per chamber volume back quite a few months ago. Every component in the HPA setup is a variable in this equation, most importantly pressure, nozzles, chamber volume and precision timing/control. Does that make sense?

r0m has a good handle of most of this, and it seems a good head on his shoulders in general for these sort of things. I have been curiously watching to see if his small chamber volume will be the limiting factor in him achieving fuzzy roots. His need to keep things small in the unobtrusive cabinet is understandible, and if anyone will figure it out, I hope it will be him. Certainly all that there is to be understood about HPA has not been discovered yet, so there is always that to reach for. I just believe in at least having my starting point at the same place where others have attained the initial results I'm looking for.
P.S.- looking at Agrihouse's setups, it seems Stoner falls short of this, so what I am trying to say is that while you are holding him in the spotlight as trying to emulate his exact setup as a benchmark, I am saying outright that this thread means to do much better- and his systems fall short of my goals. I am using his ultra-low volume nozzles however. Mike reports their spray coarser than the dig nozzles, and I need to test that as well for second opinion. tree farmer told that these nozzles gave him very good results.

 

[aerojunkie]

r0m Here are the basics to avoid confusion (Sorry trichy for briefly jackin the thread).

Now this is my method, there is always someone out there who will disagree or expand. To cut clones I use a combination of sterilized pharmaceutical scissors and a new sterilized razor blade. Before you cut anything make sure you have a min of three nodes on the cutting and have a cup of RO water on hand along with a new paper towel to place your tools on. Using scissors I cut right above the 4th or 5th node making sure to have as much stem as possible below the 3rd or 4th node then immediately place them in my cup of RO water to avoid an air embolism. Depending on the amount of cuttings you take you can use multiple cups or bowels of RO water to place the cuttings in prior to dipping them in hormone solution. Try not to get the leaves too wet. When you are ready to place cuttings in your cloner, individually slice the base of each cutting @ a 45-65 degree angle and immediately dip the cutting into your hormone solution. I prefer gel as it remains on the cutting longer. Now at this point I trim approximately 3/8ths of the the total length of the leaves off the cutting on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th nodes using my scissors (if the 2nd node looks too small, don't worry about trimming the leaves). Be sure to leave 5/8ths of the total length in tact. This will prevent too much transpiration during the cloning stage and still keep the cutting alive. Immediately place your cutting in the cloner. I recycle RO water and add a low amount of rooting solution. I also place an Aquarium heater inside a secondary water basin within my 2x4 botanicare tray/chamber and try to maintain an 80 degree temp. I use a 4' 6 bulb T5 with a combo of warm and cool bulbs staggered. I highly recommend a humidome. Otherwise, simply take transparent plastic cups from the grocery store, and place them over your cutting making sure you have a good seal. Lather rinse and repeat.

In my opinion, Aeroponic cloning is by far the best method, and I really like Tefen's nozzles. The fine mist prevents the rapid runoff or dissolving of your rooting hormone, which otherwise occurs in FauxAero or a bubble cloner. Don't be afraid to mist for 24/7 until roots sprout. After roots appear, you can then begin strengthening your nutes. In my opinion you are trying to get hair roots too soon. I wait until I have almost a baseball sized root ball before I start shortening my mist duration. You can start cycling prior to this, but its not necessary as the timed intervals are designed specifically for the development of hair roots. Good Luck.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Actually that was a very detailed explanation- almost surgical! Thanks AJ... Air embolism eh? never heard/worried about it other than when scuba diving, but I suppose if the leaves are actively transpiring, it would be possible to draw up air into the stalks. I've been lucky cloning all sorts of plants before (even on accident since I was a kid) hehe. When a branch or stem breaks off of a plant I like- I just toss it in a cup or bucket of water, and eventually roots grow. I don't think it's nearly as complicated as people imagine- although I would think a method such as this gives every chance for the clones to prosper.
Recently I was imagining if they would ever try to get around the whole bother with roots. Such as a way to cut the stalks and impale them onto an patch of hypodermic needles that supply just what the plant needs- although I imagine its alot more complicated as the roots seem to transport stuff in and out as well. Or at least graft a clone onto the matured stalks of a just harvested plant, perhaps that would greatly speed the growth phase- albeit with a weird stalk size differential. Has anyone ever tried anything like that before?

 

[aerojunkie]

Accidental clones huh? Were you messing around with mint, or pixie dust? I'm aware that in fact there are many plants that reproduce asexually, however MJ always seems to need an extra nudge in the right direction. In my mind its always best to provide the most optimal environment to negate the possible failures, hence the reasoning for my High Pressure Air-Assisted Hydro-Atomized Aeroponic System... or HPAAHAAS for short. BTW I will be trademarking this name and patenting its design so everyone beware of the potential for litigation when utilizing it.

Rootless cultivation on a stalk drip? Interesting... I got one better, lets just skip all that growing nonsense, patent a synthesized THC molecule, market it through Pfizer, and sell it at a neighborhood Walmart. We could even lobby for the FDA to remove THC from the schedule 1 category while keeping cannabis on said schedule to avoid any potential competition. What do you think? I personally always loved Monopoly as a kid.

 

[PROF XAVIER]

Have a question for anyone who could answer...any good way of getting rid of gnats in the root ball and pod? I flushed and sprayed with aggressive H202, and now running straight Hygrozyme and Beneficial Bacteria to clean up the mess. Will run for next 12 hours....using R/O water (with ultra purification... very clean) cleaned walls....applied fine mesh filters to all air intakes so no more of the little bastards can get in...running slightly more acidic H20 @ 5.6......and keeping things nice and cool at 68°F. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Hi Xavier, I have never had to deal with gnats in my plants fortunately, but I know it's a common issue. I wonder if some chlorine might do the trick? Try to search how much is acceptable, I believe 6 drops per gallon of household bleach has been stated before for keeping the roots sterile, but make sure you research that amount before trying it. If you are running beneficial bacteria it will obviously be killed, so that may be a problem for you and I honestly don't know if gnats would be immune to that low level of chlorine. I wonder if another option such as garlic, orange oil, or capsicum might work? Hopefully someone else will chime in with better advice- but I tried my best. Good luck and please let us know what worked for you if you are able to get rid of them- hope the screens can keep them out in the future.

 

[PROF XAVIER]

Hi Xavier, I have never had to deal with gnats in my plants fortunately, but I know it's a common issue. I wonder if some chlorine might do the trick? Try to search how much is acceptable, I believe 6 drops per gallon of household bleach has been stated before for keeping the roots sterile, but make sure you research that amount before trying it. If you are running beneficial bacteria it will obviously be killed, so that may be a problem for you and I honestly don't know if gnats would be immune to that low level of chlorine. I wonder if another option such as garlic, orange oil, or capsicum might work? Hopefully someone else will chime in with better advice- but I tried my best. Good luck and please let us know what worked for you if you are able to get rid of them- hope the screens can keep them out in the future.

Thanks..will look into that. The H202 seemed to help. I've heard letting the roots dry out to an extent helps. I've heard of LOW levels of chlorine in the root zone to kill off molds and rot....so it is possible. Thanks for the advice. I was also thinking of direct UV light.....have a fixture so worth a shot.

 

[r0m30]

Before you cut anything make sure you have a min of three nodes on the cutting and have a cup of RO water on hand along with a new paper towel to place your tools on. Using scissors I cut right above the 4th or 5th node making sure to have as much stem as possible below the 3rd or 4th node then immediately place them in my cup of RO water to avoid an air embolism.

Four to Five nodes, that's the kind of info that I've yet to see before, thanks. I cut mine between nodes two and three.

When you are ready to place cuttings in your cloner, individually slice the base of each cutting @ a 45-65 degree angle and immediately dip the cutting into your hormone solution. I prefer gel as it remains on the cutting longer. Now at this point I trim approximately 3/8ths of the the total length of the leaves off the cutting on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th nodes using my scissors (if the 2nd node looks too small, don't worry about trimming the leaves). Be sure to leave 5/8ths of the total length in tact. This will prevent too much transpiration during the cloning stage and still keep the cutting alive. Immediately place your cutting in the cloner. I recycle RO water and add a low amount of rooting solution. I also place an Aquarium heater inside a secondary water basin within my 2x4 botanicare tray/chamber and try to maintain an 80 degree temp. I use a 4' 6 bulb T5 with a combo of warm and cool bulbs staggered. I highly recommend a humidome. Otherwise, simply take transparent plastic cups from the grocery store, and place them over your cutting making sure you have a good seal. Lather rinse and repeat.

Rooting compound and humidomes and superthrive seem to be a lot like religions, some people believe and some don't. I was planning on running a with/without test once I got the basics down. At this point I'm leaning towards it's can't hurt. I'll probably go get some rooting compound if the UPS guy ever shows up with my UFO.

In my opinion, Aeroponic cloning is by far the best method, and I really like Tefen's nozzles. The fine mist prevents the rapid runoff or dissolving of your rooting hormone, which otherwise occurs in FauxAero or a bubble cloner. Don't be afraid to mist for 24/7 until roots sprout. After roots appear, you can then begin strengthening your nutes. In my opinion you are trying to get hair roots too soon. I wait until I have almost a baseball sized root ball before I start shortening my mist duration. You can start cycling prior to this, but its not necessary as the timed intervals are designed specifically for the development of hair roots. Good Luck.

I wasn't shooting for root hairs, I don't believe I could get any in a 5 gallon bucket with 4 misters. I was copying Cav's cycle as well as I could with the dig timer I bought and didn't want to relegate to the "spares" pile.
Everyone talks about "root balls" all I have is a few roots that grow to the bottom of the bucket, no "ball". This is after 3 weeks.


Many thanks for taking the time to lay this out so succinctly.

 

[PetFlora]

I have been battling a problem with a microbe colony taking up residence in my DMfit filter. They seem to grow over night, as every morning my plant would be wilted, and the run off jug almost empty. Checking the filter, it would be partially clogged. It seems since it is small it doesn't take a lot to interfer with the amount of nutes getting through during the feed cycles.

BRAIN FART: I am going to try to incorporate my large (~ 6") 200 mesh in-line filter inside the rez. I had stopped using it (between rez and pump) because every time I opened it to clean the filter, it would leak, but that would not be a problem inside the rez.

The Rez bulkhead has a quick fit on both sides, so I simply cut the 1/4 tubing to fit. That was easy, though it runs from end to end, so I put a 1/4" elbow on it. Will see what it does to prevent the microbes from blocking the DMfit filter, which is between rez and pump. The DMfit may now be redundant.

 

[aerojunkie]

I wasn't shooting for root hairs, I don't believe I could get any in a 5 gallon bucket with 4 misters. I was copying Cav's cycle as well as I could with the dig timer I bought and didn't want to relegate to the "spares" pile.
Everyone talks about "root balls" all I have is a few roots that grow to the bottom of the bucket, no "ball". This is after 3 weeks.

Many thanks for taking the time to lay this out so succinctly.

No worries,

If I remember correctly it was cavadge that was trying for hair roots too soon, don't worry about your cycle intervals until your roots are 3-4" long. Its possible that your pot is preventing more volume, but this is also not a concern. Spaghetti roots are fine and yours look good. You can start to shorten the cycle times @ 2-3" root length but this is a more delicate process. Your on the right track, your nozzles aren't an issue. I suggest just trying out some of the simple suggestions and I'm sure you will notice a gain in your rooting successes.

 

[PetFlora]

r0m30 root balls and root hairs are the result of short mist cycles. I got the type you have when I used a timer whose min wet cycle was 30 seconds.

You should be able to get your roots going ~ 10 seconds, then once they are golf ball size lower to ~ 5 seconds, then baseball/softball size you can start cutting that back until you see root hairs popping up everywhere. This is the biggest obstacle as it cannot be automated, you have to understand and be able to read your roots. Just another reason why you want a lid you can easily open, and mist heads that swivel and articulate.

 

[kmbud]

a question for all of you. What brand of nutes are you using, and what formula are you using if you don't mind me asking. I am putting my system together, probally a couple of weeks away from test firing. I will be using ro water. I need to start thinking about nutes so i need an idea of of what works from you guys. Brand, formula, ppm, ect. Thanks.

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