True HP Aero For 2011

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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
Still thinking in terms of absolute timing, Petflora? ;)
10 seconds with a single 1 LPH nozzle will create a completely different environment to 10 seconds with a 5 LPH nozzle. Add different chamber volumes to the mix and you`ll understand why the one-size-fits-all timing approach doesn`t have any real bearing.
Given the correct environment, as soon as you have roots even 1/4" long, they can and will produce root hairs. I get the impression that some may be thinking the root hair growth somehow impacts on how fast the roots elongate. It does, it speeds up the overall growth rate so you can have your cake and eat it :) Overmisting will only serve to slow things down.
The trick to keeping the roots happy in the very early stages is to use chopped rockwool in the netpots (not solid r/w cubes) and keep it just slightly damp so the roots feel they have a secure water reserve. Overmisting will force the roots to head straight for the floor (water makes the roots heavy) instead of venturing out into the void to where the majority of your mist is. With the chopped rockwool, you`ll see no stress or wilting issues unless you let it completely dry out and you won`t have to compromise your potential growth rate by excessive misting.
 
boodadood

boodadood

Active Member
Trichy Bastard said:
Perhaps the most important piece to this puzzle is Atomizer's equation that tells the optimal amount of liquid to be misted per chamber volume back quite a few months ago. Every component in the HPA setup is a variable in this equation, most importantly pressure, nozzles, chamber volume and precision timing/control
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this sounds like some good stuff...do know what the equation is or where i might find it posted? sorry if its already buried here in your thread...

thanks

BD
 
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foresakenlion

Active Member
My concern was with what patents he may hold, what happened to Atomix, no one has ever really made that clear, how do you not assume they infringed a patent and therefore no longer operate, a lot of this is in the air as per selling as a commercial venture, doing a private DIY is another thing entirely.

Thanks for the information Atomizer. I wasn't aware of that, again I would think it defaults to a patent issue. I looked I couldn't find any except for the leaf sensor, guys about the pressure relief valves, there are these Dayton brand ones in poly.

http://www.drillspot.com/products/70711/Dayton_3300-0015-10_Pressure_Relief_Valve

if you don't like that one search the site, they have a few more, I think that one would be fine, if you could find adapters for the gauges.
 
Mike Young

Mike Young

Well-Known Member
Atomix is no longer with us because they went all out with air assist nozzles & silent compressor. That shit ain't cheap, and they passed the price onto the consumer. 6K US, if I remember correctly. You gotta have alot of expendable income to justify that.
 
Trichy Bastard

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
boodadood said:
this sounds like some good stuff...do know what the equation is or where i might find it posted? sorry if its already buried here in your thread...

thanks

BD
Click to expand...

Post #163- I personally think it may be one of the most important tips in this thread. The reason for all the thought about chamber size, components, etc. should be that they all work together to try to achieve this number...

Atomizer said:
Hi Trichy
The ideal target is <1ml per 100L of chamber volume per misting, maintaining a droplet size range of 5-80 microns with full coverage. The challenging part is staying below the mist saturation point using the only variable you have to work with.. the timing. There`s a very good chance the timer wont go low enough so you may have to settle for something less than perfect and resort to altering to pause timing to compensate but its not ideal.
Click to expand...
 
Trichy Bastard

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
kmbud said:
bump bump bump
Click to expand...
Canna substra (also known as "Canna Hydro") has been used successfully by G-love and Atomizer (who I believe now just mixes it on his own but uses it's formulation as his template). treefarmer and Cavadge used a combination of GH 3 part products. Atomizer told me the GH mixture that worked well was: 0.7ml Micro, 0.2ml Bloom and 0.8ml Grow per litre. It would seem the fastest and easiest proven way would be to purchase some Canna and no other additives would be necessary for quite good results- sounds too good to be true :) (but not really and I'm going this route to start off myself)

It's worth mentioning that the aforementioned products/mixtures are made for DTW HPA. I do not know if they would be optimal for recirculating or not. I can't easily find the starting EC in my notes, but I know it was quite low- starting at .1 and only ever going up to .4 or something (this low ec only applies to once the fuzzy root structure has been formed-and may not be correct as I am only going from memory). Obviously this low level ec does not apply unless you have attained very short mist cycles and fuzzy HPA roots (but that is how low you can dial down EC in HPA apparently). Atomizer, please feel free to correct if I have made any mistakes in any of this info.
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
Mike Young said:
Atomix is no longer with us because they went all out with air assist nozzles & silent compressor. That shit ain't cheap, and they passed the price onto the consumer. 6K US, if I remember correctly. You gotta have alot of expendable income to justify that.
Click to expand...
If Stoner didnt have the deep pockets of NASA backing him i guess he`d be long gone too :) If atomix were guilty of patent infringement they wouldn`t have been granted their own patent or been able to sell it when they folded :)
They held US Patent: 20090293357, Aeroponic Atomizer for Horticulture.
 
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PROF XAVIER

Well-Known Member
I have been reading this thread for quite some time, and I always see everyone talking about these very short misting times resulting in huge root growth. I only have 50 micron misting heads, a 100 psi diaphragm pump, and a timer that goes 1 min on, 4 min off. I have been running HP aeroponics for some time now, with very good results, and what works for me is not the timing of the pump. It is the size of the root pod and the number of spray heads in conjunction with the size of the plant. My current plant in veg is getting enourmous, and the only thing I did different was use more mister heads at different intervals, and increasing the size of the root pod. This has continued to give me bright white roots, explosive lateral roots, and a root ball as PETFLORA explains, like a pom pom. Only my pom pom is about 3 1/2ft long and almost 1 1/2ft wide.
 
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foresakenlion

Active Member
That may have just been a patent on the combination in that configuration, air atomization is an industry process, they use it for a lot of things.

For those that were looking for non brass connection gauges, found some suspects on McMaster-Carr

PVC, CPVC, ABS, and Poly, but they're all expensive minimum of 80-200 per gauge, seems the gauges might end up more expensive than the pumps, there has to be an affordable gauge for this application somewhere.
 
Trichy Bastard

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
PROF XAVIER said:
I have been reading this thread for quite some time, and I always see everyone talking about these very short misting times resulting in huge root growth. I only have 50 micron misting heads, a 100 psi diaphragm pump, and a timer that goes 1 min on, 4 min off. I have been running HP aeroponics for some time now, with very good results, and what works for me is not the timing of the pump. It is the size of the root pod and the number of spray heads in conjunction with the size of the plant. My current plant in veg is getting enourmous, and the only thing I did different was use more mister heads at different intervals, and increasing the size of the root pod. This has continued to give me bright white roots, explosive lateral roots, and a root ball as PETFLORA explains, like a pom pom. Only my pom pom is about 3 1/2ft long and almost 1 1/2ft wide.
Click to expand...
You can get very good results with LPA, which is basically what long misting periods of HPA will give you. But believe it or not, if you added an accumulator, a timer capable of less than 1 second intervals, and developed fuzzy roots, it would possibly be even better or at least have some other benefits. Best of all you could run a very low EC and Drain to waste, which means no more fooling with your ec/ph levels after the initial reservoir fill... That is what is good about HPA with short cycles, also the plants supposedly grow tighter internodular spacing, so they are short and bushy with fat stalks... But like I said, the way you are running, you can get very good results as well- it's just a difference. Petflora, by his own admission has not been able to consistently get the super fuzzy roots, but it's not a bad thing- he is happy with his setup and does claim to grow nice plants, and that is what counts.

In a general sense, HPA the way we are talking about it is not necessarily better than what you are doing- it's more of a personal decision to grow which way suits you. If you are happy with your results, and get what you want from them- then you are doing great.
 
Trichy Bastard

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
foresakenlion said:
That may have just been a patent on the combination in that configuration, air atomization is an industry process, they use it for a lot of things.

For those that were looking for non brass connection gauges, found some suspects on McMaster-Carr

PVC, CPVC, ABS, and Poly, but they're all expensive minimum of 80-200 per gauge, seems the gauges might end up more expensive than the pumps, there has to be an affordable gauge for this application somewhere.
Click to expand...
Aeroponiocs cannot be patented, just as hydroponics cannot be. If a company developed a proprietary delivery method or whole package, then I suppose that is what Stoner did, and also Atomix. Either way- the generalization of aeroponics can't be patented anymore than soil growing could be in my mind. It's a non issue for me (and likely most of us) anyway. I'm building a system for home use and it doesn't matter to me even if it were patented, right?
I sourced stainless liquid filled gauges for $13-30 bucks or so... They can be found... In my parts list I believe I left links way back in the first 10 pages or so of this thread. I think freshwater systems sold me one, and the other was from ebay.
 
P

PROF XAVIER

Well-Known Member
Trichy Bastard said:
You can get very good results with LPA, which is basically what long misting periods of HPA will give you. But believe it or not, if you added an accumulator, a timer capable of less than 1 second intervals, and developed fuzzy roots, it would possibly be even better or at least have some other benefits. Best of all you could run a very low EC and Drain to waste, which means no more fooling with your ec/ph levels after the initial reservoir fill... That is what is good about HPA with short cycles, also the plants supposedly grow tighter internodular spacing, so they are short and bushy with fat stalks... But like I said, the way you are running, you can get very good results as well- it's just a difference. Petflora, by his own admission has not been able to consistently get the super fuzzy roots, but it's not a bad thing- he is happy with his setup and does claim to grow nice plants, and that is what counts.

In a general sense, HPA the way we are talking about it is not necessarily better than what you are doing- it's more of a personal decision to grow which way suits you. If you are happy with your results, and get what you want from them- then you are doing great.
Click to expand...
Very true....to each his own in growing. So many ways...no real right answer or best method.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
ProfX: I called the roots pompoms because that's what PodRacer called his (hint, he never posted a root pic that had root hairs. Lots of tightly bundled fish bone roots, but no root hairs). Now that I have experienced root hairs I have amended my description: I now call them cotton candy, so fluffy/airy are the roots/hairs. They simply have to be more efficient. And that high degree of efficiency should produce bigger plants, with bigger buds, in the shortest amount of time than any other method. This of course assuming all the other integral factors are reasonably dialed in/controlled.

I would think your pod needs to be pretty big (~ 4 X 4) to pull off 1 minute and still get root hairs. And while they (RHs) are addictive, no one using an accum has ever been willing to show their results say in the last week of flower. So until I see something that knocks my sox off compared to my hybrid method, which is on the edge, I'll keep refining what I'm doing.

And just when I thought I was ready to rock this grow, I had a set back. Microbes have been partially blocking my DMfit filter. Every morning I would check the plants and every morning they had various stages of wilt: my oldest plant wilting the most. Not realizing the cause was a blocked filter, I kept readjusting my mist heads. Then I realized every morning there was hardly any runoff in the catch bucket. Aha! Tracing that back is when I discovered the blocked filter. I dumped the nutes, ran a gallon of H2O2 through the system, and replaced the nutes to no avail. Been cleaning the filter daily for a week now.

I finally moved the one large plant from HPA into a F & D rig (net pots/lava rock/hydroton) I tossed together using an lp pump feeding 1" pvc with holes in it (when the nutes cycle it's a mini Bellagio (tons of aeration at the point of attack) splashing onto lava rock- more oxygenation. Talk about perking up! It's one happy mother (I hope so) in there, that's for sure.

I am using my IGE timer; the 30 seconds on time is perfect for the size table I am using, and I can quickly turn the Off dial for day feed and night feed cycles. Finally the perfect place for this timer. I have to tell you, so far, I am stunned at how great F & D is. And in Air Pots, too. One of the plants that was suffering in the HPA rig I moved to a soil mix, then transplanted it into an AP. If those were available 3 years ago, I probably would never have gotten into HPA, but no regrets. It's a fascinating and challenging method.

Yesterday it hit me to put my large ~ 6" 200 mesh filter designed for outdoor irrigation systems inside the rez.: I had replaced it this grow with the small DMfit. And since the bulk head is press fit on both sides, the install was 2 minutes. I have 4 young uns (~ 3 weeks old) in HPA now. Just hoping the filter solves the problem. hth
 
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foresakenlion

Active Member
There's a silk screen link further back for down to around 50 micro, and filter bags on US plastics down to 1 micron someone else linked to.

Checked freshwater, no longer available if it was, however I'm guessing you found them on Ebay, I don't know about using unknown third world steel. I'll keep looking.
 
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aerojunkie

Well-Known Member
Trichy Bastard said:
Canna substra (also known as "Canna Hydro") has been used successfully by G-love and Atomizer (who I believe now just mixes it on his own but uses it's formulation as his template). treefarmer and Cavadge used a combination of GH 3 part products. Atomizer told me the GH mixture that worked well was: 0.7ml Micro, 0.2ml Bloom and 0.8ml Grow per litre. It would seem the fastest and easiest proven way would be to purchase some Canna and no other additives would be necessary for quite good results- sounds too good to be true :) (but not really and I'm going this route to start off myself)

It's worth mentioning that the aforementioned products/mixtures are made for DTW HPA. I do not know if they would be optimal for recirculating or not. I can't easily find the starting EC in my notes, but I know it was quite low- starting at .1 and only ever going up to .4 or something (this low ec only applies to once the fuzzy root structure has been formed-and may not be correct as I am only going from memory). Obviously this low level ec does not apply unless you have attained very short mist cycles and fuzzy HPA roots (but that is how low you can dial down EC in HPA apparently). Atomizer, please feel free to correct if I have made any mistakes in any of this info.
Click to expand...
I was doing a little research on canna products and I cant find any nutrient analysis? Does anyone even know the NPK of this product?
 
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r0m30

Active Member
OK, so I went looking at rooting compounds. I found an inexpensive one (GreenLite @ 4.99 for 2 Oz) at OSH and so I figured I'd give it a whirl. Get it home and it says it's only for ornamentals :( Off I go to the hydro store and buy some Clonex (18.99 for 100ml) I get it home and damn if it doesn't have the same active ingredient and the same warning that it shouldn't be used on food crops ..WTF??. I google indole-3-butric acid and find that the EPA says that it CAN be used on food crops, as a pesticide no less. I can't really tell if the strengths are the same, the GreenLite says .1% and the Clonex says 3g/liter so it's apples to oranges even if I did know how much a gram of the acid weighs. The only difference I can say for sure is that the GreenLite is a powder and the clonex is a liquid.

Anyone have a clue for one confused grower?
Cloning compounds.JPG

Edit: I dawned on me that I can do some comparison. 2Oz = 56.6g * .1 = 5.66g. That works out to about 2 liters of liquid to get the same dilution as clonex, so the greenlite is about 20x stronger. I'll need to test the solubility of the powder.
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
r0m30 said:
The Washington State Fertilizer product database is online, they have the GA for the canna products. (it's under "C" for Canna not "F" for Flores :wink: )
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You`ll find a lot of the ingredients missing, i bought a bottle of vega and flores (softwater) to get the info. If you plan to homebrew it i recommend buying a bottle of each so you have some to compare with the hombrew version.
Here`s a hi-res pic of a real hydro vega rear label, i did have the flores label on the drive somewhere..i havent figured out quite where yet.
http://www.datafilehost.com/download-5587dcde.html
 
Trichy Bastard

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
PetFlora said:
ProfX:I would think your pod needs to be pretty big (~ 4 X 4) to pull off 1 minute and still get root hairs. And while they (RHs) are addictive, no one using an accum has ever been willing to show their results say in the last week of flower. So until I see something that knocks my sox off compared to my hybrid method, which is on the edge, I'll keep refining what I'm doing. hth
Click to expand...
Even if 4x4 were large enough with a 1min mist cycle (which I doubt it is anyway) it would have to be also with only one single mister, which would never get the coverage necessary to all areas of the roots even of a single plant.

Petflora- if you haven't seen G-love's journals on UK420, he posts pics of the whole lifecycle up to harvest. He does use atomized hpa, but the environment is similar enough to what we try to do with an accumulator. Perhaps that is what you are looking for? I thought it was very inspiring stuff.
 
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