LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow

[pr0fesseur]

A bit of confusion again - I have the 8 bulb, you advised 3 Fiji / 1 454 / 1 420 Super Actinic / 3 RED SUN for bloom. The 75.25 was for veg, replaced for bloom with the 3rd RED SUN.
Here you have advised 2 FIJI / 2 Super Actinic / 2 RED SUN / a 451 (is that 454???) / 75.25 for Flower.

So is the "extra" Super Actinic preferable to a 3rd FIJI ? And I thought the 75.25 was replaced with a RED SUN for Flower/Bloom stage.

Please clear this up for all the 8 bulb users, thanks!

ok so let me straighten a few things out...
I have 3 red myself 2 red suns and 1 PRO COLOR (discontinued) i mentioned replacing the PRO COLOR with a red sun if that made people happy...
the 75.25 or 12000K is the only bulb that really has any green in it so you need one of those..
the fuji purple are the base consider them your go-to bulb if you will.
youll need a 454 and a super blue or blue plus which ever you like better...
i probably confused you by even mentioning the 75.25 in that post..
"@ least buy 4 bulbs 2 fujis and 2 actinics.. NOW >for flowering<and when you flower add 2 more red suns THEN when you can(afford it) buy 2 additional bulbs a 451 and a 75.25... UVL with internal reflectors please"
that was a recipe not for flowering but for bulbs to BUY and in which order....

 

[pr0fesseur]

Wow. Now I'm confused.

novice11:

1. Do you have an 8 bulb fixture? I see now- 8 bulb. Me too.
2. Are you starting from scratch?
3. It sounds like you want to know which 4 bulbs for veg + 4 for flower?

I use half my Quantum during veg. Checking the aquarium specialty www, it looks like the 75.25 & Fiji compliment each other to flesh out the blues. I'm thinking 2 of each, alternating them should bath your young- uns in beautiful blue light.

During flower I think you keep one 75.25 on each half of your fixture

If Pr0ff agrees, I will replace my Quantum 2700s with the above set up, but only because in over 2 months of asking, Quantum has still not posted the spectral graphs. That said, my 3 week old plants are looking very healthy

Again great work people.
i think you can use the 3rd fuji and the 3rd actinic as (preference bulbs) more base color or more actinic.. base color helps flowering because of the red, and actinic helps with resin production... theres no right way so long as you stick with the theme switch a 12000k or 75.25 out with a red when you flower and use heavy fuji and actinic as your base.

 

[pr0fesseur]

Questions for the pr0f:

(1) Where did you get the output spectrum for the Fiji?
(2) Do you know what the initial output of the Fiji is in lumens?

Thanks!

Great question
(1) google kz fuji purple t5
(2) doesent matter why its all PAR you have to remember luminosity (lumen) is only for the human EYE not for PAR measurements.

 

[pr0fesseur]

So that graph completely debunks what they were saying. That was a waste of an hour then

no they probably just meant that its all the same thing..theyre all waves or particles , cept light is both.

 

[Phillip J Fry]

hey love that lighting you got going on. I have a 4 bulb T5 fixture that i only veg with. What bulbs should i use to optimize my results?

 

[PetFlora]

I don't see it as an alternative but a replacement.. more output W/W and when plasma comes down I'm going directly to that...
There's no way that anyone could say HID is "Better because" when looking at Real facts and REAL scientific documentation, and REAL results there are more efficient less expensive ways to grow Plasma WILL be the next Method. it fits both HID and LED Growers needs.. With the light spectrum almost IDENTICAL to the sun, indoor growers will be able to produce MONSTER plants! indoors with LESS wattage!

Unless the plasmas have 2 settings one for vg- one for flower- they are simply a compromise to both.

 

[PetFlora]

1big plant!

I got one as a hand-me-down. HUGE piece of crap

 

[PetFlora]

I would be so pissed about that many broken bulbs!, FedEx delivers most of my things, I havent had anything broken yet. luckily I guess! ordering from 5+sites can get rather expensive on shipping cost so it is rather nice that aquarium specialty has a large variety of quality bulbs.

after 4-6 phone calls they are consistently nice and helpful too

 

[PetFlora]

Well since some of these lights are made in europe the Fiji purps can be had anywhere .. i would try to get those... im looking into T5 Led tubes.. still trying to source them... so hang tight.
I cant imagine not being able to get these lights.. there @ any Aquarium store.. if not they will order them for you!
as long as you get actinics and some of the bulbs i mention your going in the right direction... EBAY!! spend the cash and import them if you have to.. buy 6 or 8 @ a time...

Aquarium Specialties is now offering LEDs

 

[novice11]

ok so let me straighten a few things out...
I have 3 red myself 2 red suns and 1 PRO COLOR (discontinued) i mentioned replacing the PRO COLOR with a red sun if that made people happy...
the 75.25 or 12000K is the only bulb that really has any green in it so you need one of those..
the fuji purple are the base consider them your go-to bulb if you will.
youll need a 454 and a super blue or blue plus which ever you like better...
i probably confused you by even mentioning the 75.25 in that post..
"@ least buy 4 bulbs 2 fujis and 2 actinics.. NOW >for flowering<and when you flower add 2 more red suns THEN when you can(afford it) buy 2 additional bulbs a 451 and a 75.25... UVL with internal reflectors please"
that was a recipe not for flowering but for bulbs to BUY and in which order....

I appreciate you clearing that up for us. pr0fesseur. Thanks!

 

[PetFlora]

Long before coming across Pr0fs thread, I started a thread on another site titled Are LEDs Misunderstood? It was in response to having 2 grows using a UFO 90 from seed to flower, and not being as satisfied as the marketing hype suggested. Over time I learned that this UFO would be better for flower as it has 90/10: R/B, but even then it is really only good for one small bush or 2-3 small colas. Had I only known then what I know now. The same money would have gotten me a my BB + 8 aquarium bulbs. lol That said, it is still good to supplement. Using it now for my herbs- rosemary and basil, and it kicks ass for wheat grass.

Anyway, contrary to pr0fs steadfast approach of not mixing B/R, at least during veg, I posed the question on my thread. Yesterday I got a response from a guy who has been making his own LEDs for several years. He says yes, you do want both, BUT, more B than R during veg; the opposite during flower. This validates my intuition regarding the make up of sun light from planting through to harvest. And throughout both you want some green to amp up chlorophyll A & B.

Not having funds to buy 8 new bulbs, I settled on 4: 2 Aqua Suns (nice green spike) and 2 Red Suns (pinch of blue and green). Upon receipt of my aquarium bulbs I mixed 2 Aqua Suns with my 2 Quantum Grows. The leafs seemed a bit on the light green side, but very healthy. I asked pr0f who strongly suggested this could be the fault of the red mix within the Aqua Sun. He is currently focused solely on using actinic blue for veg, so I went back to all Quantum Grows (still no clue what their actual color make up is). During this time I also popped some new seeds (same strain). The new plants are very healthy; now 3" tall with 3 leaf nodes, however, they too are lighter green than I am used to, so it could be the strain, which is new to me. I am using the exact same nutes.

So today (after reading the response on my LED thread), I replaced 2 of the Quantums with 2 Aqua Suns. When I flip to flower I will replace the Grow Quantums with Flower Quantums and replace the Aqua Suns with Red Suns. It isn't ideal but it should work a lot better than all Quantums. Time will tell. Keep you all posted. hth

 

[MurshDawg]

Just placed my order at Aquarium Specialties got two red suns and two 454s next I'll get these fiji's and I'll be set

 

[pr0fesseur]

Unless the plasmas have 2 settings one for vg- one for flower- they are simply a compromise to both.

I call shenanigans, Plasmas provide the absolute closest copy to the sun we can make currently and represent 90% PAR They would only need far red supplementation during flowering! thats it...

 

[novice11]

Just placed my order at Aquarium Specialties got two red suns and two 454s next I'll get these fiji's and I'll be set

Well, I ordered 2 RED SUNS along with the 2 Blue and the 75.25 last week. The RED SUNs are due to be in sometime soon, I'm still waiting. And I have written 2 emails, 1 Wednesday and 1 today asking about it and have not received the courtesy of a reply. So the prices are good and the Customer Service sux.

 

[pr0fesseur]

Long before coming across Pr0fs thread, I started a thread on another site titled Are LEDs Misunderstood? It was in response to having 2 grows using a UFO 90 from seed to flower, and not being as satisfied as the marketing hype suggested. Over time I learned that this UFO would be better for flower as it has 90/10: R/B, but even then it is really only good for one small bush or 2-3 small colas. Had I only known then what I know now. The same money would have gotten me a my BB + 8 aquarium bulbs. lol That said, it is still good to supplement. Using it now for my herbs- rosemary and basil, and it kicks ass for wheat grass.

Anyway, contrary to pr0fs steadfast approach of not mixing B/R, at least during veg, I posed the question on my thread. Yesterday I got a response from a guy who has been making his own LEDs for several years. He says yes, you do want both, BUT, more B than R during veg; the opposite during flower. This validates my intuition regarding the make up of sun light from planting through to harvest. And throughout both you want some green to amp up chlorophyll A & B.

Not having funds to buy 8 new bulbs, I settled on 4: 2 Aqua Suns (nice green spike) and 2 Red Suns (pinch of blue and green). Upon receipt of my aquarium bulbs I mixed 2 Aqua Suns with my 2 Quantum Grows. The leafs seemed a bit on the light green side, but very healthy. I asked pr0f who strongly suggested this could be the fault of the red mix within the Aqua Sun. He is currently focused solely on using actinic blue for veg, so I went back to all Quantum Grows (still no clue what their actual color make up is). During this time I also popped some new seeds (same strain). The new plants are very healthy; now 3" tall with 3 leaf nodes, however, they too are lighter green than I am used to, so it could be the strain, which is new to me. I am using the exact same nutes.

So today (after reading the response on my LED thread), I replaced 2 of the Quantums with 2 Aqua Suns. When I flip to flower I will replace the Grow Quantums with Flower Quantums and replace the Aqua Suns with Red Suns. It isn't ideal but it should work a lot better than all Quantums. Time will tell. Keep you all posted. hth

I must interject again...during veg i grow with fuji purps which are ~>=50/50 red blue with actinics and a 75.25 or 12000k
for green

 

[PetFlora]

Wazzup just chimed in to my thread Are LEDs Misunderstood. He is from the Netherlands. Reading his many posts there, he seems to know quite a bit about lighting. Here is his response:

Let me try to illustrate the use and maturity of LED in professional greenhouse and climate room experiments as an example. For greenhouses LED's are not suitable to replace HPS top lighting yet. Philips and numerous other companies have done trials (including water cooled systems!) and they have no benefits over HPS. The general opinion among researchers is that LED's are perfect for providing a specific spectrum, but for good plant development you need a full continuous spectrum for the best development. Search for a Wageningen University research paper by Sander Hogewoning discussing artificial sunlight.

Philips now researches LED's for interlighting (for additional growlight between the crop) and is getting some results with that, though the incomplete spectrum does stress the plants.

The last big project in greenhouses and climate rooms is the vegetative growth of lettuce, but the generative growth is still done in a standard greenhouse or with other lighting. For tissue culture LED is great, and most plants veg under LED. For flowering plants need a much more complex, wider and complete spectrum of light.

Now you also need to take into consideration that a greenhouse depends for the most on sunlight to provide the right spectrum, HPS lamps are only used as extra photons for photosynthesis. So it is wide full continuous spectrum for quality, hps for quantity. For climate rooms most lamp manufacturers recommend a combination of HPS and MH because HPS does not provide enough blue light. Hoewever, MH is much less efficient than HPS in producing photons. White LEDs are less efficient than red or blue ones.

You also need to understand that a plant needs blue spectrum maintain and renew its photosynthetic system. A plant grown under a balanced spectrum will stay green and healthy a lot longer.

The myths about UVA/UVB: It is already scientifically proven that UVB has an influence on trichome development on cannabis. The trichomes protect the plant, they are the only part of the plant that actually absorb the UVB. That also leads to a faster ripening of the trichomes btw, and will influence the cannabinoid content and types of cannabinoids. There is for example a theory that strains that grow on high altitudes (with high dosage of UVB, well above where other plants survive) contain high levels of THCV. You see that in Thai, Hawaiian and African strains that grow on high altitudes.

Imho it is possible to make a LED light with a spectrum suitable for indoor but the problem is always the spikes in the spectrum. A plant does use green light, and every color is essential for a good development of a plant, it influences the morphology of the plant. You can see that with MH versus HPS, where the MH crop has short internodes, while under HPS plants stretch a lot. Don't forget that IR light (heat radiation) is also important for a plant.

In horticulture we don't expect that LED will take over the HPS market very soon. HPS is still a very efficient light source and it is very cost effective. Be we do see a purpose already for steering light.
hth.

 

[pr0fesseur]

And this is why i mentioned using a broader spectrum using the T5 lamps verses the MH&HPS ive already posted the various SPD charts to show that not only do my lamps have a more "FULL" spectrum the beat the snot out of LED because Led typically just produces light in a very narrow band. however HPS and MH produce light in bands shown not to induce growth ie yellow light. and waste photons generating heat.. anything that produces heat instead of light is wasting electricity and inefficient. so what if they can produce MORE light in a smaller bulb, just by the inverse square law i win, my light is produced over a much larger area and travels a shorter distance to the leaf. being that the sun can only provide 1370W m/sq Given this number if i use 2 badboy 16 bulb lamps and tilt them over a 4' section im generating more light than the SUN!

 

[AltarNation]

the sun can only provide 1370W m/sq Given this number if i use 2 badboy 16 bulb lamps and tilt them over a 4' section im generating more light than the SUN!

Awesome. I seriously might do that down the line, when I have more space.

I know most people are all about the most bang for buck, but I have other concerns, such as heat safety in confined spaces, and not wanting to plunk down a ton more for heavy duty ventilation. And, as you said, the benefits are found in being able to move the plants so much closer to the light in the first place. I could see making a "tent" out of two at an angle, sounds awesome. Someday.

Oh, and an update, I ended up deciding to just bite the bullet and buy the bulbs. I have a nice setup along the lines you've described coming, minus the reds which are backordered to all hell because of all of us trying to buy up their bulbs.

So I have this arrangement ordered:

for VEG:

FIJI
RED SUN
Super Actinic
75.25
FIJI
RED SUN
UVL 454
FIJI

Which blue bulb do I swap out to shift the balance towards red? I believe I read somewhere in this thread that the 75.25 gets swapped out for the red, but wouldn't that leave the flowering phase with no green spectrum? is that okay?

Reds will come next week, so they say... so I have to make do with the others for now.

Would you say I'd be best off leaving the agromax 6500k bulbs I already have, in place of the missing reds, for now? or should I leave those slots empty for now? (I am a little worried that adding the two red bulbs that are supposed to be in the veg mix late might induce flowering?? I will still have more blue than red as designed, but it's going to be so strongly blue-shifted before their addition that I'm wondering how the plant will respond.

Thanks for all your hard work and awesome input pr0f!

 

[PetFlora]

To all potential Quantum Bad Boy purchasers, my 8 bulb has 2 separate o/o switches. It occurred to me I can erect a divider and use half for veg and half for flower *depending on diameter of said plants), which allows for a small perpetual grow set up. for small AF type plants

FYI I went to KorallenZucht website. They do not have a color spectrum chart for the Fiji. I emailed Aquarium Specialty to see whether they can locate. Since Pr0f said he posted it I went back from the beginning, but did not find it. Then I came across Precog420 post on page 28-29, which has a link that shows it. Once I saw it, yes Pr0f posted it, BUT there was no name referencing the graph. hth

 

[PetFlora]

And this is why i mentioned using a broader spectrum using the T5 lamps verses the MH&HPS ive already posted the various SPD charts to show that not only do my lamps have a more "FULL" spectrum the beat the snot out of LED because Led typically just produces light in a very narrow band. however HPS and MH produce light in bands shown not to induce growth ie yellow light. and waste photons generating heat.. anything that produces heat instead of light is wasting electricity and inefficient. so what if they can produce MORE light in a smaller bulb, just by the inverse square law i win, my light is produced over a much larger area and travels a shorter distance to the leaf. being that the sun can only provide 1370W m/sq Given this number if i use 2 badboy 16 bulb lamps and tilt them over a 4' section im generating more light than the SUN!

It's a chore getting at the bulbs in the middle of my 8 bulb, I wouldn't want to do that with a 16. Besides 2 @ 8 allows better management of plants with different heights, or experimenting vertically.

Instead of tilting them, how about putting a reflector on top?