True HP Aero For 2011

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
With the latest heat wave traveling across the states; I have an outdoor rdwc and somehow even when it's scorching hot there is peace of mind knowing that the plants have as much water as they can slurp.

How does hpa perform in an outdoor environment when there is a daily high raising the plants transpiration rate? Will they wilt?
I believe there are 3 main issues involved with high temps:
1) Dissolved oxygen to the roots (D.O.)
2) Keeping bacteria/fungus/disease at bay
3) Maximum temps a plant can physically handle

Atomizer posted the results of a higher temp test in post #'s 138 & 144 in this thread. It seems if you can keep the pod insulated and mist with cooler nutes, the pod temps can stay within reason. I assume there is likely not much difference with any other type of setup in terms of plant tolerance. In dwc setups minding oxygen levels gets tougher with higher temps, in proper hpa that's at least not an issue because of all the air. I'm sure anywhere there is moisture, there is possibility of bacteria- especially in the higher temp ranges. Since hpa is probably most easily done without organics, adding some chlorine or h202 is easy enough. In your rdwc you must have a chiller? It's an easy fix for recirculating systems as long as you don't mind the added cost and energy consumption but you have to get a little more fancy with mist chambers I guess. As mentioned a few times before, I will assume that evaporation of the mist helps pull down temps on it's own as well. I was curious about any maximal thresholds for pod temps myself, but have been satisfied there's nothing overly delicate about it. What kind of temps are you talking about?

Also, in terms of water consumption, my understanding is that the mist timings will always be in need of fine tuning due to temps, plant stage, etc. If you pay special attention during heat waves I don't see any reason to worry about that too much. If anything, overmisting seems to be the constant battle, and if increased transpiration occurs, a simply adjustment should sort that out. I hope anyone will point it out if any of these thoughts are incorrect.
 

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
The canopy temp on my outdoor chamber is running 100-110F in full sun..no wilting issues. I mist more frequently during the hottest part of the day, less during early morning/late afternoon and very little at night.
 

aerojunkie

Well-Known Member
Ive never had to deal with high temps, but it occured a while back that if necessary one could always throw a bag or block of ice in a chamber in the event of an emergency, or for the very least, peace of mind. If your chamber is insulated (which I highly recommend) enough ice should last long enough to handle a short heat wave. Just dont side-step the monitoring of chamber temps..
 

fallinprince

Active Member
trichy do i need to mail you some of my clones that i dont need so that we can see ur thing in action btw i think the microbe tea that im obsessed with would solve your high water temp/bacteria issues
 

Redoctober

Well-Known Member
Dear Trichy, firstly THANK YOU soooo much for doing this thread :) I can't tell you how helpful it is to have other aero enthusiasts out there to talk to. It seems to be a very small niche at the moment and most people simply prefer tried and true growing methods (simple or not) with which they are comfortable. But for those of us that like to experiment, innovate and tinker, HPA exerts a pull and allure that is inescapable. I must now admit that I've only read the first two pages of this thread, and I myself can't stand it when people jump in on the last page and ask about things that have already been discussed so I shan't be doing any of that until I completely catch up. But the first two pages were riveting. I had actually begun reading (and am at various stages of progress on) all of the threads you had pointed to e.g. "plug and play pods" and such. I hate to say it, but they will probably take a back seat to your thread here because you have done such a magnificent job of consolidating and summarizing all of that disparate knowledge so concisely and succinctly! I will be building my own HPA system right alongside you as per the information you have lain out. I forewarn you, and those here, that I may end up asking some very noobish questions, even after having read all of your wonderful info. There some aspects of HPA that I have never encountered ever before...things like solenoid valves: so mysterious and magical! I've never seen or handled a solenoid valve before, though I have a basic knowledge about the premise on which they function (thank you internet). It's like an exotic wild animal to me. There is so much that this hobby can teach you that you never imagined :) But that's all part of the fun! I can't wait to read the rest, and you can add another team member to the HPA roster.
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
trichy do i need to mail you some of my clones that i dont need so that we can see ur thing in action btw i think the microbe tea that im obsessed with would solve your high water temp/bacteria issues
Haha, I better get it built then and I have something to look forward to... I'm likely running a sterile system and will use bleach/h202 to keep the nasties at bay if need be. The misters have such small orifice's I think any sort of organics would just cause clogging issues. I would never discount organic as my vegetable garden is absolutely that way- but I'm ok with my hpa being raw chemical nutes and as sterile as possible.
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Welcome Redoctober... I appreciate the props, but can promise you my thread isn't quite as cool as some. Cavadge had all sorts of side grows going to keep the thread interesting while he was waiting for parts, he had amazing construction skills, and had a way of writing to his audience that was really entertaining. Tree farmer's plug and play pods thread was incredible because there were a few very intelligent and talented people all working towards pioneering and perfecting this exact spin on the original nasa aero design for us home growers.
This thread is just an attempt to be "live" in the shadows and footsteps of those great threads which are now history. It's okay though- I don't need to have the best thread to feel good, but just some people with input, help, and companionship long the way. The best thing this thread has going for it is that it's alive for us right now... :D I like you're attitude and to be honest I didn't have too much more beginning knowledge than you. It's amazing what taking the time to read some good threads will do for your understanding of this. I bet you've worked with a solenoid before- ever played with automatic sprinklers? The valve that turns them on from the timer is the same thing. A dishwasher, or clothes washing machine also utilize solenoids- all they are is electronically activated water valves- simple enough. The accumulator tank is the same as used on people's home reverse osmosis systems, and the rest is pretty simple and straightforward after reading about them. Cavadge was especially good at describing what he was learning to the readers of his thread, so we could learn along with him. In the end, I think he fell slightly short of perfected aero, but he sure taught the concepts well as he went, and I am sure by the end of his thread he was quite capable of doing it exactly right the second time. Anyway, glad to have you onboard, do lots of reading and I'm sure we'll try to accomodate filling in the gaps you need like others have done for me. I highly recommend reading all these threads from start to end before you decide to buy any parts. You'll know for sure if it's a road you want to follow, and you'll have alot better chances only having to buy the right stuff the first time around...
 

aerojunkie

Well-Known Member
It would be better to use the ice to drop the nute temp to 65F and just increase the misting freqency.
For immediate relief of high chamber temps, I recommend ice in the chamber. The water in my accumulator can stand for over an hour between pump cycles, before being sprayed. Whereas, ice in the chamber can lower temps rapidly and efficiently without the loss of as many BTUs outside the chamber. I'm sure both suggestions will most likely work depending, once again, on the needs and setup of each specific circumstance.
 

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
My outdoor chamber is 16ft long so it`d be nigh impossible to spread a layer of ice in it to cool it evenly :) The accumulator runs for at least 4 hours between pump cycles but it doesn`t come into the equation as the nutes are cooled en route to the nozzles. Its a lot easier to cool 14ml of nutes than 350gal of chamber.
 

aerojunkie

Well-Known Member
Different strokes... most individuals don't have close to a 16' chamber. Besides running excess line into a bucket of ice water, how are your nutes cooled en route to your nozzles? My lines are black nylon and would absorb much heat energy if outdoors which would defeat the purpose of icy res water. I just poured a 10lb bag of Ice into my chamber and recorded an 11 degree drop in temps in under 10 min. Cold res water wont even get to my accumulator in that amount of time. Furthermore, my AA nozzles help tremendously to distribute the BTUs evenly, but most people don't have those either. I don't doubt that ice in a res would work under many circumstances, but at this point I think that in an "emergency" the route to rapid cooling is an issue that can only be determined by each individual circumstance.
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Different strokes... most individuals don't have close to a 16' chamber. Besides running excess line into a bucket of ice water, how are your nutes cooled en route to your nozzles? My lines are black nylon and would absorb much heat energy if outdoors which would defeat the purpose of icy res water. I just poured a 10lb bag of Ice into my chamber and recorded an 11 degree drop in temps in under 10 min. Cold res water wont even get to my accumulator in that amount of time. Furthermore, my AA nozzles help tremendously to distribute the BTUs evenly, but most people don't have those either. I don't doubt that ice in a res would work under many circumstances, but at this point I think that in an "emergency" the route to rapid cooling is an issue that can only be determined by each individual circumstance.
Thanks for the tip aerojonkie. One question I have is how do the roots near the ice react- do they seem to get too cold and encounter issues, or does the ice stay far enough away to spread out their coldness before coming into contact with the roots? Also it sounds as if your accumulator is drained every hour or so when the pump replenishes it. Would you be willing to say the size of the tank you are running? I am thinking it is either fairly small for your setup, or perhaps you are running the pod to saturation levels to keep the hot temps in check? Thanks man, and sorry to hear the recent heat has got you having to work extra- at least you have a way to keep temps in check. I suspect heat may be an issue for me and am particularly interested in how people are dealing with it. As I mentioned before Irishboy is running LED hydro in 100-110 degrees conditions without a chiller- he says it creates some issues and delays flowering, but he is doing darn good where most people would have lost their plants in such temps. I don't see any reason to not believe him, other than that he is doing good in such hot temps :D .
 

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
Besides running excess line into a bucket of ice water, how are your nutes cooled en route to your nozzles? My lines are black nylon and would absorb much heat energy if outdoors which would defeat the purpose of icy res water. I just poured a 10lb bag of Ice into my chamber and recorded an 11 degree drop in temps in under 10 min. Cold res water wont even get to my accumulator in that amount of time. Furthermore, my AA nozzles help tremendously to distribute the BTUs evenly, but most people don't have those either.
I have a picnic cooler located at the end of the chamber with 30ft of coiled hose submerged in cold water. My mains water runs at 50F, a thermostat controls a solenoid. The stat/solenoid combo controls the water temperature in the cooler by filling it with cold water from the bottom and overflowing to drain from the top (warmer water exits first).
I run air atomising and hydraulic nozzles in seperate chambers.
cooler coil.jpg
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Haha, I better get it built then and I have something to look forward to... I'm likely running a sterile system and will use bleach/h202 to keep the nasties at bay if need be. The misters have such small orifice's I think any sort of organics would just cause clogging issues. I would never discount organic as my vegetable garden is absolutely that way- but I'm ok with my hpa being raw chemical nutes and as sterile as possible.
If you use DM Zone and Silica you should not need much if any H2O2, or bleach. Of course you must keep your rez cool.

Now the humidity/hest from the outside temps can be problematic, so check your pod daily as you will to monitor roothairs, and keep a spray bottle of 3-5% H2O2 handy to kill any mildew/mold etc that might develop on the pod walls.

If my botany serves me correctly, plants are capable of converting inorganic to organic, whereas humans are not.

Prince: What kinda clones?

hth
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
If you use DM Zone and Silica you should not need much if any H2O2, or bleach. Of course you must keep your rez cool.

Now the humidity/hest from the outside temps can be problematic, so check your pod daily as you will to monitor roothairs, and keep a spray bottle of 3-5% H2O2 handy to kill any mildew/mold etc that might develop on the pod walls.

If my botany serves me correctly, plants are capable of converting inorganic to organic, whereas humans are not.

Prince: What kinda clones?

hth
Thanks PF- how do you figure the silica/ dm zone will negate the need for an oxidizer. By strengthening the plants defenses? I like silica, and will probably run it, but am going to have to google the dm zone. I suppose the inorganic/organic has to do more with the microbes at the roots and whether they are needed to convert the organics into their basic chemical constituents- which is what the plant actually absorbs. In my understanding, the nice thing about hydro nutes is they are already in the broken down form and don't require microbes to process them so one can use a sanitizer without threatening a process that feeds the plants by also killing the beneficial microbes. I'll assume however, that like our intestinal flora, good microbes in the rootzone also fend off the bad ones sort of like how a lawn creates a barrier for weeds that would otherwise take root.
 

rosecitypapa

Active Member
Hey guys, thanks for the discussion on the high temps,... Atomizer even posted a PHOTO - how cool is that!!

On another note, would someone post the link to Cavadge's journal? I googled under Cavadge, aeroponic and came up with zilch.

As for silica, I'm a fan. I've noticed tougher and stronger stems from it's use and a reduction in general of spidermites and also a reduction in the speed of their infestations.
 

aerojunkie

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the tip aerojonkie. One question I have is how do the roots near the ice react- do they seem to get too cold and encounter issues, or does the ice stay far enough away to spread out their coldness before coming into contact with the roots? Also it sounds as if your accumulator is drained every hour or so when the pump replenishes it. Would you be willing to say the size of the tank you are running? I am thinking it is either fairly small for your setup, or perhaps you are running the pod to saturation levels to keep the hot temps in check? Thanks man, and sorry to hear the recent heat has got you having to work extra- at least you have a way to keep temps in check. I suspect heat may be an issue for me and am particularly interested in how people are dealing with it. As I mentioned before Irishboy is running LED hydro in 100-110 degrees conditions without a chiller- he says it creates some issues and delays flowering, but he is doing darn good where most people would have lost their plants in such temps. I don't see any reason to not believe him, other than that he is doing good in such hot temps :D .

The roots are always a min of 6" above the bottom of my chambers. I did not see any change in the roots nor plants during the time the ice was in the chamber. My accumulator is only 2 gallons/chamber. They are smaller and I do plan on adding some well tanks when I get around to it. For the time being they work just fine. BTW I am not dealing with any heat issues at the moment, I only ran this test in order to verify my hypothesis. I understand Atomizers design and if one is aware of a possible heat wave during a summer cycle, they would be wise to incorporate the same preventative measures. Another idea I have bounced around would be a heat exchanger mounted inside the chamber with a chiller supplying the necessary cold water supply.
 

r0m30

Active Member
On the high temps issue, I was thinking that it would be possible to fit a two gallon accumulator into a dorm refrigerator. There would also be room for most of the other pressure components if you wanted to go that far. Am I missing something? I know this wouldn't work for those of you with bigger systems/accumulators, but for a small system it seems like a cost effective way to go.

On another note, would someone post the link to Cavadge's journal? I googled under Cavadge, aeroponic and came up with zilch.
https://www.gardenscure.com/420/aeroponics/133136-project-forget-fogger-im-going-hp.html

It's a LONG thread but I would recommend reading it completely and bookmark liberally as you will want to refer back to portions of it again.
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Hey guys, thanks for the discussion on the high temps,... Atomizer even posted a PHOTO - how cool is that!!

On another note, would someone post the link to Cavadge's journal? I googled under Cavadge, aeroponic and came up with zilch.

As for silica, I'm a fan. I've noticed tougher and stronger stems from it's use and a reduction in general of spidermites and also a reduction in the speed of their infestations.
Shh, don't make a big deal of Atomizer's photo- lest he'll never do it again ;) hehe... Yes, I consider silica really good for strengthening stems and helping the plant retain water. I figure it's quite pervasive in natural soil, and feel the need to add it to my hydro despite it being non-essential. Beleive it or not, there are some studies that show the plant uses it to make certain hairs that can possibly be carcinogenic to us. In the case of wheat, which uses silica to grow these hairs, the studies show the middle eastern areas that eat alot of bread incidentally have the highest rate of throat cancer in the world. I figure I'll take my chances though since silica is in all soils (It's basically sand)...

Cavadge's thread can be found here: http://www.gardenscure.com/420/aeroponics/133136-project-forget-fogger-im-going-hp.html
Remember, he didn't quite have a perfect aero setup, but the concepts are true and he does a bang up job of explaining them. Enjoy the read rcp- it's a fairly big one, but easy to keep reading due to being written so well.

Edit: Oops, I see r0m beat me to posting the link, thanks man - you're totally right about the bookmarking too :)
I'll also agree with your fridge idea. Atomizer has also suggested a way to use a chiller in a way it only comes on when the pump is drawing from the res to fill the tank, and then insulating the tank and wrapping with reflectix to hold in the cold. This way it is only using electricity every once in a while. I think dorm fridge will unfortunately negate some of the benefits of hpa being very low on elecrtical consumption- but those fridges probably don't draw that much power and we are already saving so much electric in the first place- it may be a fair idea to do at least just during heat spells.
 
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