UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
ha, indeed!You damned Socialist!
i walked in and told them what i needed. they asked if i worked or if i got unemployment. they saw me and told me what to pay.
the swelling is already going down. a lot.
The Truth About Ron Paul
- Thread starter deprave
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i walked in and told them what i needed. they asked if i worked or if i got unemployment. they saw me and told me what to pay.
the swelling is already going down. a lot.
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
and they are good people here in the state of oregon.
and i figure i worked most of this year so far and paid taxes to the state and fed, so i chipped in, however minimally.
as far as the 'sinking turd of an entitlement program', can you name me any industrialized nation that covers all of its citizens yet has no mandate?
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
No, but I do not care to even try to name one as the point is irrelevant.
This is because said mandate would be unconstitutional in the U.S.
Some may wish our exceptional country to follow the example of Greece.
I do not.
sync0s
Well-Known Member
God damn this thread flew by. I posted last night at 3am and I get home from work and we're three pages down. lol
In a response to mame, although setting up a panel of experienced doctors to regulate price sounds like a good idea, but it won't follow the true economic standards. Truth is, a price cannot be dictated from outside ever with out having dire consequences. If there is one regulation that should be in place, it's that hospitals post the costs for every procedure just like any other business does, reason being hospitals especially are an uncontrollable monopoly. Also, health insurance companies are freaking scams, there wouldn't be so many if that wasn't true. However, like I mentioned I'm not opposed to universal health care, I just think we need to find a less government involved way of doing it, if it's possible.
Additionally, you can't say that these clinics serve only the rich and not the poor you would need to find some statistics to back this. Mayo clinic is in Rochester, Minnesota, a state which sits right at the US average for household income and it's in a city locked pretty much in the middle of corn fields in which it's primary rich population is the doctors and nurses that work at Mayo.The closest major cities located to Mayo Clinic are Minneapolis and St Paul and they are an hour and 35 minute drive. People don't go to Mayo Clinic to avoid long lines, they go there to cure incurable diseases and such. I don't have information on any of the others, so I won't try.
My main point behind your statistics, is if your going to post them, either post possible alternate reasons. This is how propaganda works. The bullshitter just finds stats that supports their point, leave out the stats that don't, and only provide one possible reason why the stats would be supportive of their claims. As I've heard once before, 90% of all stats can be made to say anything.
In a response to mame, although setting up a panel of experienced doctors to regulate price sounds like a good idea, but it won't follow the true economic standards. Truth is, a price cannot be dictated from outside ever with out having dire consequences. If there is one regulation that should be in place, it's that hospitals post the costs for every procedure just like any other business does, reason being hospitals especially are an uncontrollable monopoly. Also, health insurance companies are freaking scams, there wouldn't be so many if that wasn't true. However, like I mentioned I'm not opposed to universal health care, I just think we need to find a less government involved way of doing it, if it's possible.
Additionally, you can't say that these clinics serve only the rich and not the poor you would need to find some statistics to back this. Mayo clinic is in Rochester, Minnesota, a state which sits right at the US average for household income and it's in a city locked pretty much in the middle of corn fields in which it's primary rich population is the doctors and nurses that work at Mayo.The closest major cities located to Mayo Clinic are Minneapolis and St Paul and they are an hour and 35 minute drive. People don't go to Mayo Clinic to avoid long lines, they go there to cure incurable diseases and such. I don't have information on any of the others, so I won't try.
My main point behind your statistics, is if your going to post them, either post possible alternate reasons. This is how propaganda works. The bullshitter just finds stats that supports their point, leave out the stats that don't, and only provide one possible reason why the stats would be supportive of their claims. As I've heard once before, 90% of all stats can be made to say anything.
deprave
New Member
there is tons of free clinics, they are in almost every major American city, they provide free or very cheap healthcare (depending on your situation). If you don't have healthcare and you have a job its like 20$ copay, if you don't have a job its free, generally speaking. One example is Hamilton Clinic.
The problem with our healthcare system in my views as someone who worked in that field for about 6 years not that long ago, anyway the problem is the bureaucracy created by the government itself, our healthcare system not much different from our healthcare system in the 1980's, everything is still in these things called paper and they use these ancient objects known as fax machines constantly, big pharma is getting more and more greedy, health professionals are often poorly trained because the field is so desperate for jobs, and moving forward with new treatments is a nightmare.
The problem with our healthcare system in my views as someone who worked in that field for about 6 years not that long ago, anyway the problem is the bureaucracy created by the government itself, our healthcare system not much different from our healthcare system in the 1980's, everything is still in these things called paper and they use these ancient objects known as fax machines constantly, big pharma is getting more and more greedy, health professionals are often poorly trained because the field is so desperate for jobs, and moving forward with new treatments is a nightmare.
sync0s
Well-Known Member
Those clinics also help the doctors and nurses who are new get experience which furthers their careers. Additionally, drug companies give their drugs for free or very cheap to the clinics in order to help market their product over the dominating current products in the market. A lot of positives come from these clinics that are looked over.
budlover13
King Tut
Come on guys! Let's spam the shit outta our contacts. i'm going to compose a good letter and post here. Anyone can copy and paste.
mame
Well-Known Member
They're temporary and are designed as a stopgap measure to ensure that people dont have to leave their health insurance before there are adequate choices in the new exchanges being set up. It is not a weakness in HC reform, it's merely a measure to help smooth the transition. Any business that meets the necessary qualifications can apply for one. Again, let me stress these are temporary. Also, they in no way represent corruption - as Sean Hannity and co. would have you believe.
What else can I help you with today?
How about some specific examples? Can you explain why "socialized" systems in other countries have been able to limit costs to half of what we pay per person? Don't they have more bureaucracy than us? It would be nice if you were to back up this claim with evidence, something more than anecdote and idealogy please...
sync0s
Well-Known Member
Easy.... Requiring all citizens to carry health insurance. Another easy way is to show you this bill that is soon to be introduced to congress: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-s668/show Ironically it's called the Health Care Bureaucrats Elimination Act of 2011. Hmm if that didn't exist at all why would there be a need for a bill to be introduced like this?
mame
Well-Known Member
Uhm, first of all it looks like you misunderstood the question. I asked him to give me examples of bureaucracy that is already in place that is causing our costs to be twice as high as countries with more bureaucracy... Can either of you explain how you can honestly blame bureaucracy for overwhelming costs when it is the countries with more bureaucracy that are paying less per person? I mean, if bureaucracy were the problem, than wouldn't our system be cheaper and more available than the socialized systems?
Also, that bill is about a specific board of health professionals that would be tasked with finding ways to cut costs. Would you rather politicians do this kind of work? Or would you rather have a couple doctors(and health insurance officials, etc) with a few decades of experience in the healthcare industry put their knowledge to use? We consult experts all the time - why shouldn't we here? No rights are being infringed on... what's the problem?
Also, did you even look at the sponser and co-sponsers of this bill? 29 total Republicans and 0 Democrats support it... But you go on ahead and pretend this isn't a deeply partisan bill...
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
MessiahCare does not go into effect until 2014. So your transition EXCUSE is worthless.
Why be granted an exemption NOW for something which does not kick in until 2014?
And yeah anyone can APPLY for an exemption, but the people IN CHARGE decide who gets one.
Which again begs the question: If MessiahCare is going to be as wonderful as the Donks told us it will be, why any exemptions at all?
Mindmelted
Well-Known Member
And you know that none of the powers that be will have obamacare.
They have real insurance that me and you pay for,And for the rest of their lives at that.
They have real insurance that me and you pay for,And for the rest of their lives at that.
mame
Well-Known Member
You're really good at bashing a policy you dont like, but do you have any solutions? Consider the following graph:
It's a little fuzzy, but you can clearly see that our system is inferior to nations with "socialized" systems in terms of cost. If "Messiahcare" is so terrible than why is it that countries who've gone down a similar path (universal care) pay less than us? Can any of you explain this? It's clearly not Bureaucracy driving costs, as countries with more government intervention pay half of what we do... again, can you present a coherent argument against Obamacare that doesn't rely merely on the libertarian idealogy of "the government shouldn't intervene" (and dont give me any of that "it's unconstitutional!" either... the SCOTUS shall decide)?
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
actually, those people in congress all contribute to their own health care plans just like you or i would when working most private sector jobs.
for your edification.
deprave
New Member
pretty narrow perspective there mame no offense, The problems with Obama care are greater then the bennifits, there are very few bennifits, the core of the problem with obamacare is that its mandatory, as Ive said, it seems over dramatic to say mandatory injections and pills but that is what it comes down to, a doctors orders carry a lot of weight, and when it comes to children DHS/CPS can get involved if someone disagree with their doctor....DHS/CPS punch in a computer and the computer makes the choice for them what to do , it is not their decision as professionals to for example take children away. The other problem with Obama is the backroom deals which added a lot more pork to the whole system.
Mandatory healthcare is most definitely not the answer for America, Universal Health care well thats a tricky one also, If the healthcare system was freed up from problems we could have more money to provide care for the uninsured, If healthcare did not have so many bureaucratic roadblocks then it could progress, this is another area that needs less government intervention. Our health and our bodies, this is our property. Obamacare is an absolute nightmare when it comes to liberty and this is why so many patriots oppose it. Obamacare does little to fix many problems in our current system and this is why the liberals and health care professionals don't like it.
Have you ever worked for government before or owned a small business? I don't think you have. You obviously have not worked in the Health Care field, the redundant crap and old technology would astonish you.
Mandatory healthcare is most definitely not the answer for America, Universal Health care well thats a tricky one also, If the healthcare system was freed up from problems we could have more money to provide care for the uninsured, If healthcare did not have so many bureaucratic roadblocks then it could progress, this is another area that needs less government intervention. Our health and our bodies, this is our property. Obamacare is an absolute nightmare when it comes to liberty and this is why so many patriots oppose it. Obamacare does little to fix many problems in our current system and this is why the liberals and health care professionals don't like it.
Have you ever worked for government before or owned a small business? I don't think you have. You obviously have not worked in the Health Care field, the redundant crap and old technology would astonish you.
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
I have given a solution many times before. Adhere to the fucking Constitution.
If a state wants universal coverage, GREAT!
If not, GREAT!
Countries who rely, directly or indirectly, on the United States for their defense have had room in their budgets freed up for Socialist programs like this. But many of those same countries, conveniently not on your fuzzy chart, are facing bankruptcy.
You want another reason why I don't like MessiahCare? It's the same reason I oppose any entitlement.
Supporters of entitlement programs always low-ball the projected costs. Medicare is a perfect example.
Simply put, Constitutionality notwithstanding; we as a nation cannot afford it.
mame
Well-Known Member
Again, can you present any evidence that it is too much bureaucracy that is driving costs? You keep saying it, but that does not make it true. You've said you dont support an individual mandate but you've also said in this very thread that you're "all for universal healthcare" - tell me, how is universal care achievable without an individual mandate? Is there a single country on the entire planet that has universal care without also having an individual mandate? The answers are no, and no. If you believe in universal care than you must understand that the individual mandate is necessary to achieve that goal.
Also, you say liberals dont like Obama's law? You're right, it is flawed in a major way in the eyes of the left; It's missing the public option. But that's OK because the broader goal of universal care has been achieved.
mame
Well-Known Member
Except that that's not true either. True it cost some money to start the program but sometimes you've got to spend money to make money - and in this case it's you've got to spend money to save money. The CBO released a report on the effects of repealing Obamacare and they found that doing so would actually increase the deficit. Remember, aside from the moral argument - the economic argument is that universal care, Obamacare, will save us all money over the long run. In economics we call it "bending the curve"...
So, any more objections?
deprave
New Member
Do I have an evidence, you mean like a blurry graph from the internet with 4 lines on it? or some whitehouse.gov statistics? I could tell you my personal story working in the healthcare field but you know - weed forums - don't want to get that personal.....I tried to give general examples - the healthcare system is behind in technology for one, Do you know what goes on at the nurses desk in a busy emergency room? I know this very well from several emergency rooms - when you visit the emergency room because you bumped your toe there is a stack of paper on you thousands of pages long, dozens of phone calls are made and many for no good common sense reasons, authorizations hold up the treatment, hundreds of faxes are sent out, enough legal paperwork to fill a small bath tub is written about your toe. Professionals are not able to give the best treatment possible often times.
There is people hired with the jobs like: Pickup the phone and type a few things in and decide if the patient can be treated from 500 miles away, People that just simply fax and make copies all day, people that play solitaire all day and are paid to verify insurance, Do you know what is like to find a placement for a patient? It often takes days and days of paperwork and phone calls just to get someone into treatment.
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