Today is the Day We Hit the Debt Ceiling

deprave

deprave

New Member
dan kone said:
proclaiming me wrong without an explanation of why isn't really saying much.

They may have been unpopular, but the bailouts did prevent an even worse disaster from happening. I would have preferred the government taken over the too big to fail companies, but the bailouts did what they were supposed to.

Letting the banks all fail and the economy collapse is not a solution.
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wrong again
 
budlover13

budlover13

King Tut
beardo said:
were you referring to Kennedy?
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Well, i guess so. i was actually thinking Hamilton and Jackson, but yes, Kennedy made an announcement weeks before his assassination that he intended to dismantle the Fed. One has to draw their own conclusion on that case, but there's no room for interpretation when Jackson claimed on his deathbed that the most glorious achievement of his life was not letting the Federal Bank renew it's 20 year contract.
 
Dan Kone

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
NoDrama said:
It didn't solve anything, it only kicked the can down the road a few years. The big economic bust is still coming and it is unstoppable.
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You say that, but give no reasoning for why you think that is true. We experienced a bubble. Yes, it could happen again because we haven't fixed the mechanisms that allowed it to happen. However that doesn't mean it can not be fixed. It doesn't require economic collapse for that to happen. The bailouts did stop a complete economic collapse. They may not have been popular, but there is no denying they worked.

Just because they were unpopular does not mean they were not effective.
 
Dan Kone

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
budlover13 said:
i'm just thinking they are a temporary stop-gap until another Prez gets in office imho.
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I think you guys are misunderstanding the situation. This was a bubble, it's been deflated. Of course it can happen again, but we are not under the threat of it happening again immediately. It'd take at least a decade to build back up.

The bailouts were nothing more than something to stop an immediate problem. They were never supposed to be a long term solution. They did what they were supposed to.

The long term problem is much more difficult. It's a problem of allowing people from the financial services industry to lobby congress for loopholes combined with the fact that we let Wall St guys fill all the top positions relating to the economy in the executive branch. Until we stop those things from happening, this problem will keep coming back.

Basically, our economy needs to be regulated better. Not necessarily more regulated, but just better. All you guys screaming for Ron Paul as the solution need to be aware that he wants complete financial deregulation. That's the type of policy that would allow problems like this to happen very easily. Getting rid of the fed won't stop Wall St from creating exotic products that no one understands and create a gambling environment that leads to problems like these.

If Ron Paul had his way, Wall St would be let completely off the chain to do whatever the hell they want. They would rob us all blind. Anyone supporting Ron Paul as the solution to our economy is just supporting throwing gasoline on the fire to put it out.
 
budlover13

budlover13

King Tut
Dan Kone said:
I think you guys are misunderstanding the situation. This was a bubble, it's been deflated. Of course it can happen again, but we are not under the threat of it happening again immediately. It'd take at least a decade to build back up.

The bailouts were nothing more than something to stop an immediate problem. They were never supposed to be a long term solution. They did what they were supposed to.

The long term problem is much more difficult. It's a problem of allowing people from the financial services industry to lobby congress for loopholes combined with the fact that we let Wall St guys fill all the top positions relating to the economy in the executive branch. Until we stop those things from happening, this problem will keep coming back.

Basically, our economy needs to be regulated better. Not necessarily more regulated, but just better. All you guys screaming for Ron Paul as the solution need to be aware that he wants complete financial deregulation. That's the type of policy that would allow problems like this to happen very easily. Getting rid of the fed won't stop Wall St from creating exotic products that no one understands and create a gambling environment that leads to problems like these.

If Ron Paul had his way, Wall St would be let completely off the chain to do whatever the hell they want. They would rob us all blind. Anyone supporting Ron Paul as the solution to our economy is just supporting throwing gasoline on the fire to put it out.
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They would only rob blind those that let them. And they deserve it imho. Ignorance isn't bliss imho.
 
Dan Kone

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
budlover13 said:
They would only rob blind those that let them. And they deserve it imho. Ignorance isn't bliss imho.
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And by supporting people like Ron Paul people are attempting to let them. Also, just because there are a lot of ignorant people doesn't mean that everyone deserves to be robbed blind. It's not a problem that only effects the willfully ignorant, it effects everyone. The effects stem out to people who had nothing to do with it.
 
budlover13

budlover13

King Tut
Dan Kone said:
And by supporting people like Ron Paul people are attempting to let them. Also, just because there are a lot of ignorant people doesn't mean that everyone deserves to be robbed blind. It's not a problem that only effects the willfully ignorant, it effects everyone. The effects stem out to people who had nothing to do with it.
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Survival of the fittest. If one is that uneducated, it isn't my problem, but theirs.
 
deprave

deprave

New Member
Dan Kone said:
And by supporting people like Ron Paul people are attempting to let them. Also, just because there are a lot of ignorant people doesn't mean that everyone deserves to be robbed blind. It's not a problem that only effects the willfully ignorant, it effects everyone. The effects stem out to people who had nothing to do with it.
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Just because Ron Paul believes in the free market doesn't mean the wild west, he talks about this in his book, essentially he says he would regulate corporations. Again its the media taking him out of context just like with what he said about the civil rights act.
 
deprave

deprave

New Member
I mean, you think Obama will save us from the crooks? Is that what your saying dan? hes one of them.

Open your eyes dan, the media has painted Ron Paul as a radical and you fall for it hook, line, and sinker.
 
Dan Kone

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
deprave said:
Just because Ron Paul believes in the free market doesn't mean the wild west, he talks about this in his book, essentially he says he would regulate corporations. Again its the media taking him out of context just like with what he said about the civil rights act.
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That's exactly what a free market would be. An unregulated market. Wall St would be free to create whatever products it likes and leave it up to the consumer to either purchase or not purchase them. That is what free market economics is. The problem with leaving it up to the consumers to decide what they are going to buy or what they aren't going to buy is that when they make bad decisions, it isn't just their loss. We all lose. People who have never gambled on the stock market still lose their jobs.

Sure, Ron Paul would try and stop the Bernie Madoff's of the world, but he'd let the Goldman Sachs of the world run wild on us. That makes the problem worse, not better.
 
budlover13

budlover13

King Tut
Dan Kone said:
That's exactly what a free market would be. An unregulated market. Wall St would be free to create whatever products it likes and leave it up to the consumer to either purchase or not purchase them. That is what free market economics is. The problem with leaving it up to the consumers to decide what they are going to buy or what they aren't going to buy is that when they make bad decisions, it isn't just their loss. We all lose. People who have never gambled on the stock market still lose their jobs.

Sure, Ron Paul would try and stop the Bernie Madoff's of the world, but he'd let the Goldman Sachs of the world run wild on us. That makes the problem worse, not better.
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That's why the capitalist bankers are deserving of death imho.
 
Dan Kone

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
deprave said:
I mean, you think Obama will save us from the crooks? Is that what your saying dan? hes one of them.
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I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying Ron Paul and his big can of gasoline won't put out this fire.


Open your eyes dan, the media has painted Ron Paul as a radical and you fall for it hook, line, and sinker.
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lol. You're telling me to open my eyes? I have posted substance and reasoning, you're posts usually consist of "no you're wrong" with no explanation. I at least understand the problem, you are showing no understanding of the problem what so ever.

How can you have your eyes open when all you do is spout lame soundbites? Learn about the details of the problem before acting like you have the solution.
 
Dan Kone

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
budlover13 said:
That's why the capitalist bankers are deserving of death imho.
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They are doing what they are supposed to do, make money no matter what. The real problem is our political system and our mentality. When you see fools say dumb shit like "money is speech! corporations should be allowed to give as much money as they want to political campaigns" or "the government should be run more like a business!", they are the real problem.

If Goldman Sachs wasn't allowed to buy off both parties none of this would happen. If we publicly financed all national political campaigns none of this would happen. But now both parties are in the pocket of Wall St and various corporate interests and put their needs above the needs of the American people. The government is being run like a business instead of an organization designed to benefit the people. It doesn't matter who is president, that will never change as long as big money is in politics.

Also a fair share of the blame goes to people who think we need more financial deregulation. They gave the politicians the support they needed to pull off these scams.

Wall St is what is. We can point the finger at them all we want, but the voters and the people they elected are the ones who allowed them to scam us.
 
budlover13

budlover13

King Tut
Dan Kone said:
They are doing what they are supposed to do, make money no matter what. The real problem is our political system and our mentality. When you see fools say dumb shit like "money is speech! corporations should be allowed to give as much money as they want to political campaigns" or "the government should be run more like a business!", they are the real problem.

If Goldman Sachs wasn't allowed to buy off both parties none of this would happen. If we publicly financed all national political campaigns none of this would happen. But now both parties are in the pocket of Wall St and various corporate interests and put their needs above the needs of the American people. The government is being run like a business instead of an organization designed to benefit the people. It doesn't matter who is president, that will never change as long as big money is in politics.

Also a fair share of the blame goes to people who think we need more financial deregulation. They gave the politicians the support they needed to pull off these scams.

Wall St is what is. We can point the finger at them all we want, but the voters and the people they elected are the ones who allowed them to scam us.
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Wall St. belongs to foreigners. They rule our country imo.
 
Ernst

Ernst

Well-Known Member
The latest tug-o-war is for 21 billion in oil company tax breaks over 10 years.

That would be nice to see happen. Then again I'm going with a 2stroke motor on a new bicycle for a while till things get better so I don't care what the price of gas is @150 mpg

It's interesting to see that big oil is fighting this. If they were smart they would cave and PR this cave to death so they can make us comfortable @ $4 a gallon sooner.
 
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