Another reason to pass Horticulture only for the People of california in 2012

[undertheice]

I just don't fully understand his angle yet.

his angle is the same simplistic, anti-business song and dance that always shows its ugly little head whenever any political discussion arises. you know how it goes - business bad, the little guy good and never the twain shall meet. it's the populist mantra run amok, a sad combination of anti-capitalist dogma and an unquestioning worship of the underdog.

 

[Serapis]

I don't think it's anti-capitalist at all to want the right to grow marijuana for personal consumption. We can make beer or wine or buy it. that right was hard fought, but it was finally won.... commerce came first and in MJ, it might also. If so, we'll have to take it a step at a time..... at least if commercialization were permitted, we would have a leg to stand on in demanding personal right to produce our own.... with K2 and Spice sending alarming numbers to emergency rooms, it may happen sooner than we would expect.

his angle is the same simplistic, anti-business song and dance that always shows its ugly little head whenever any political discussion arises. you know how it goes - business bad, the little guy good and never the twain shall meet. it's the populist mantra run amok, a sad combination of anti-capitalist dogma and an unquestioning worship of the underdog.

 

[Dan Kone]

It is posts such as yours that really encourage me to apply to help moderate these forums, even though I suspect the chore would be dreadful. If you cannot find something nice to say to other members, or something to say in a nice way, please feel free to find another corner of the internet to play in. Your response is not needed....

Sorry, but ernest's posts are deserving of my contempt. They are full of false information, false assumptions, and false choices. He's disguising his own selfish interests as legalization as well as making up lies about anyone who disagrees with him. I will not play nice with him nor will I find another corner of the internet to play in.

 

[Dan Kone]

I would think if Ernst was a 215 patient, that his working for legality for all would be welcome and appreciated by others in this community..... wow, I guess we are a community divided, taking pot shots at one another when we can.... it's truly sad.....

He's not supporting legalization. He's supporting legalizing unlimited black market dealing while letting corporate America write all the commercial sales/cultivation laws.

What he is proposing has no chance of passing, divides the community, builds opposition to serious legalization efforts, and is incredibly selfish. Ultimately people like him do serious harm to real legalization efforts.

People see stuff like what he is supporting and think "well I'll just vote against legalization this time and wait for a measure more like his to get on the ballot". There will never be a measure like that on the ballot and even if someone one managed to get on the ballot it would be defeating soundly.

We have a window where legalization is possible due to the economic problems. It's not going to be forever. The economy will recover and when it does that window expires. People like ernest are going to blow our best chance at legalization in 70 years. We need to unite behind a serious legalization effort and not let crackpot frauds like ernest blow our chance at legalization.

 

[Dan Kone]

His vision for a prop will be to legalize weed. Period. But no business ie. "commerce" language would be in the proposition. That's what he means by no "commerce". The problem with that is what will the rules be for the now legal canna-business? What taxes will they pay, licenses, etc.

Look, I have no problem with ernsts ideas. I like the thought of unlimited growing, no limits shit. But will people vote for that? Non weed smokers? Squares? Uninformed dolts?

When not passed though a voter initiative, the state assembly is allowed to make the rules. They will do so based on corporate lobbyist recommendations. By passing an initiative that does not address business, you let corporate America write the rules.

Now if the rules are passed through a voter initiative, the assembly can not over rule anything in a voter initiative.

 

[undertheice]

I don't think it's anti-capitalist at all to want the right to grow marijuana for personal consumption.

it is when it excludes the right for people to freely trade in it as any other commodity and this is precisely what he advocates. he has made that artificial division within the private sector between commercial interests and "the people", a division that only serves to weaken capitalism's defense of the private sector against the predations of government's inherently socialistic bent. the strength of capitalism lies within commercial enterprise and its accessibility to everyone, this is what his proposal seeks to short circuit. by excluding commerce from the equation, he permits government the ability to continue outlawing it. without commerce there is restricted access and, hence, no legalization.

 

[Dan Kone]

it is when it excludes the right for people to freely trade in it as any other commodity and this is precisely what he advocates. he has made that artificial division within the private sector between commercial interests and "the people", a division that only serves to weaken capitalism's defense of the private sector against the predations of government's inherently socialistic bent. the strength of capitalism lies within commercial enterprise and its accessibility to everyone, this is what his proposal seeks to short circuit. by excluding commerce from the equation, he permits government the ability to continue outlawing it. without commerce there is restricted access and, hence, no legalization.

Yep. It's not really legalization without commerce. If it's legal, why can't someone buy and sell it?

 

[redivider]

i think his vision lacks a true look at where the marijuana marketplace is at the moment.

if there were 35 million marijuana growers in the US, then a law like his makes sense.

but there isn't, there's like 50 million americans who smoke pot, and most of us BUY our weed. personal holticulture doesn't take into account those sorry souls who want to smoke pot, they just don't want to grow it.

any law that legalizes it's production, distribution and sale has to establish guidelines for when it's production, distribution and sale is illegal, and establish how it will be dealt with.

and save the tyrannical blahblahblahblah... modern day tyrants aren't in government, it's a plutocracy that has established a firm grasp on what used to be our wealth. the only reason our government isn't helping us get it back is b/c of people like you preaching against it.

 

[DelSlow]

He's not supporting legalization. He's supporting legalizing unlimited black market dealing while letting corporate America write all the commercial sales/cultivation laws.

What he is proposing has no chance of passing, divides the community, builds opposition to serious legalization efforts, and is incredibly selfish. Ultimately people like him do serious harm to real legalization efforts.

People see stuff like what he is supporting and think "well I'll just vote against legalization this time and wait for a measure more like his to get on the ballot". There will never be a measure like that on the ballot and even if someone one managed to get on the ballot it would be defeating soundly.

We have a window where legalization is possible due to the economic problems. It's not going to be forever. The economy will recover and when it does that window expires. People like ernest are going to blow our best chance at legalization in 70 years. We need to unite behind a serious legalization effort and not let crackpot frauds like ernest blow our chance at legalization.

I think there is a backlash against the mmj movement for some reason. You know how Hawaii used to be with pakalolo right? My dad tells me stories of people who used to grow in their backyards, out in the open. Cops not giving a shit, even asking what kinds of fertilizers to use lol. Sounds like fun times.

Well, our anal retentive legislature made it impossible to make dispensaries a reality. They took an ok bill and twisted it into something fucking sickening (through amendments). One senator wanted to repeal certain illnesses, disqualifying a load of current patients. Crohn's disease, severe pain and nausea (along with other ailments) would no longer be allowed. The bill died, and i can't believe I cheered when it did. They would have fucked over a lot of sick people.

 

[Dan Kone]

I think there is a backlash against the mmj movement for some reason. You know how Hawaii used to be with pakalolo right? My dad tells me stories of people who used to grow in their backyards, out in the open. Cops not giving a shit, even asking what kinds of fertilizers to use lol. Sounds like fun times.

Well, our anal retentive legislature made it impossible to make dispensaries a reality. They took an ok bill and twisted it into something fucking sickening (through amendments). One senator wanted to repeal certain illnesses, disqualifying a load of current patients. Crohn's disease, severe pain and nausea (along with other ailments) would no longer be allowed. The bill died, and i can't believe I cheered when it did. They would have fucked over a lot of sick people.

That's what happens when you pass a law that isn't all inclusive. You have to cover everything now because if you don't you hand that control to the state assembly.

California actually got really lucky with AB420. The legislature could have passed a lot banning all dispensaries in California and it would have held up.

 

[Ernst]

No good deed goes unpunished.

What I have said has been met with emotional discomfort by some.

All I have ever suggested was that the efforts to do it all be split into three separate efforts so that we pass something in 2012.

That is conveniently forgotten.

Now if there is a continuance of harassment towards me then it had better be presented in context of the subject of the thread because I am working here for the betterment of the forum and Dan you are not.
You are being a selfish bastard who insists everything has to be your way.

If you all will look at the number of threads and the amount of contribution I provide you see a steady and dedicated member who adds content.


So folks.. Yes I strongly believe that any commerce language is dead on arrival for 2012 so I suggest we split the effort to do it all up into three separate efforts. For the People freedom, Business and Agriculture.
That is conveniently forgotten.

And I have said it all to Dan Kone and crew before. They know it but are ignoring that to have a reason to harass me.

That is what I see since if we all read the article at the start of this thread we all see a well constructed post with a clear message.. It's a message some members want to stop because they don't approve.
But I don't need their approval nor should I as a free man.


Fuck Commerce if it will keep us down in 2012 okay?

Fuck Commerce in 2012 if it means we will still go to prison in 2012 because Commerce fails to pass once again!

Give us Horticulture rights in 2012 not another failure at the polls.

That is how I feel about it really.

Oh and Y'all I am a regular member so kiss my ass if you think you own that.
I have been contributing to the cannabis community on-line since 2004 when i first discovered a grow site.

Maybe you don't like a thread so make your own..

Go make your own threads and chat with other people Dan Kone.. Get a life!

 

[Ernst]

Oh as much as Dan would like to say my point of view is unpopular and that gives him rights to harass I point out that Horticulture rights for the people first is popular here by the two real polls that were done.
Also I have polled people in my community here and what i get out of real people in my community is we are ready to get some rights in 2012 and if that means we cannot have public sales at first they are alright with that.

That polll-fight Dan made is the stupid shit not the efforts and polls I made.


So what do we do now friends? Do we let Dan Kone tell people what and what not they can say and when they can say it?

Is that what our forum is all about?

I'm going to remake this thread and I encourage who ever you are to stop the harassment.
Make your own threads. Beat me by doing better than me not pussying up and spamming threads. Make your own threads. Get a life!

 

[Ernst]

Mods feel free to delete this thread. It wasn't my decision to have another bitch fight.

 

[Serapis]

Ernst, others will have differing opinions.... it is not a reason to give up. Like you, I believe any commerce plan will kill any initiative, simply because of the word "tax". However, keep in mind that we were not legally able to make our own wine and beer until commerce had it all cornered up first. Big money has a lot of influence among law makers. It always has, and always will. We may have to fight for our right to grow and produce after commerce opens the door. Think about it, not all people that smoke will grow or even want to. Some are happy just buying their smoke and having a lot of choices as opposed to locking in on one or two strains in a private garden.

I also notice that no one addressed your original concern, a buffet of different laws from one county to the next. Not only will that be confusing, it may very well criminilize the movement of MJ through a particular county. I believe for the laws to be fair, they must apply to all Californians equally. You raised a good point and it's a shame some choose to attack you rather than have an open and frank discussion. If your response is to belittle differing opinions, you'll never truly have a frank and open discussion with anybody about anything. Try to see other viewpoints and see where they are coming from. It doesn't mean you are accepting the idea, it merely means you take it under consideration and have an adult conversation.

Jumping to 40 pt fonts in bold is not an adult, frank conversation. If you are unwilling to discuss all ideas and opinions, there is no sense in your posting any further. It simply defeats the purpose of promoting discussion.

 

[doc111]

His vision for a prop will be to legalize weed. Period. But no business ie. "commerce" language would be in the proposition. That's what he means by no "commerce". The problem with that is what will the rules be for the now legal canna-business? What taxes will they pay, licenses, etc.

Look, I have no problem with ernsts ideas. I like the thought of unlimited growing, no limits shit. But will people vote for that? Non weed smokers? Squares? Uninformed dolts?

I have no problem with his ideas per se. I think he is being a bit naive but there's nothing wrong with that. My problem is that we need an initiative that appeals to non-cannabis users as well. I like the thought of no limits too, but is that realistic? The public at large won't like it and that IMO will doom this proposal to failure. We've had enough failure. I'd like to see some actual progress made. I highly doubt Ernst's proposal will make any progress. I could be wrong, and to be honest, I hope I am.

Ernst, others will have differing opinions.... it is not a reason to give up. Like you, I believe any commerce plan will kill any initiative, simply because of the word "tax". However, keep in mind that we were not legally able to make our own wine and beer until commerce had it all cornered up first. Big money has a lot of influence among law makers. It always has, and always will. We may have to fight for our right to grow and produce after commerce opens the door. Think about it, not all people that smoke will grow or even want to. Some are happy just buying their smoke and having a lot of choices as opposed to locking in on one or two strains in a private garden.

I also notice that no one addressed your original concern, a buffet of different laws from one county to the next. Not only will that be confusing, it may very well criminilize the movement of MJ through a particular county. I believe for the laws to be fair, they must apply to all Californians equally. You raised a good point and it's a shame some choose to attack you rather than have an open and frank discussion. If your response is to belittle differing opinions, you'll never truly have a frank and open discussion with anybody about anything. Try to see other viewpoints and see where they are coming from. It doesn't mean you are accepting the idea, it merely means you take it under consideration and have an adult conversation.

Jumping to 40 pt fonts in bold is not an adult, frank conversation. If you are unwilling to discuss all ideas and opinions, there is no sense in your posting any further. It simply defeats the purpose of promoting discussion.

The way I understand it, the different counties and municipalities already have a hodge podge of differing ordnances and laws making it (MMJ) a cluster fuck already. I could be wrong and hopefully someone will correct me if I am. Please don't get me wrong. I don't want Ernst to give up either. I'd like him to actually be a little more open minded about people's concerns and questions. He has not been very receptive to constructive criticism at all! Stubbornness will solve nothing.

 

[Carne Seca]

So what do we do now friends? Do we let Dan Kone tell people what and what not they can say and when they can say it?

"I’ve never seen, heard, nor smelled an issue that was so dangerous it couldn’t be talked about. Hell yes, I’m for debating anything!" - Stephen Hopkins, 1776

I, for one, do not support suppressing opinions. The pendulum swings both ways, Ernst. You may not like what he says but he has the right to say it. If you can't handle dissenting views, then don't start new topics. Same goes to Mr. Kone. If your position is so weak that it requires silencing of the opposition then maybe you need to re-evaluate.

 

[Ernst]

That's good stuff.

If you will read the first post i feel i blended a new article and my opinion well except for the too large of font.

I like posting news and I like working for cannabis rights for us all not just commerce which has no chance in hell of passing in 2012 with the Feds writing personal letters frightening law makers.

Dead on arrival. It was extremely effective in October 2010 and it looks to be a standard tactic now.

So before we shoot me out behind the barn and feed the hogs with my corpse perhaps we should re-evaluate our situation for 2012. Commerce is dead.
No voters don't want legal drug dealing and never did.

As for me having the same opinion day in and day out? Can't help it because it's the wisest path i see.
We are confusing drug profits with cannabis freedom. We are trying to legalize drug profits and not the garden.

We have got to get back to the garden.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sH0uR2u7Hs


I am now officially anti-commerce for 2012.

Why fight the No people lets work with them. They want safe neighbourhoods and we all do. If we can allow our neighbours garden freedom they don't need to buy cannabis and participate in crime.
We have to allow for law abiding people.

Commerce is our fail in 2012..

 

[Ernst]

I have no problem with his ideas per se. I think he is being a bit naive but there's nothing wrong with that. My problem is that we need an initiative that appeals to non-cannabis users as well. I like the thought of no limits too, but is that realistic? The public at large won't like it and that IMO will doom this proposal to failure. We've had enough failure. I'd like to see some actual progress made. I highly doubt Ernst's proposal will make any progress. I could be wrong, and to be honest, I hope I am.

The way I understand it, the different counties and municipalities already have a hodge podge of differing ordnances and laws making it (MMJ) a cluster fuck already. I could be wrong and hopefully someone will correct me if I am. Please don't get me wrong. I don't want Ernst to give up either. I'd like him to actually be a little more open minded about people's concerns and questions. He has not been very receptive to constructive criticism at all! Stubbornness will solve nothing.

Mostly over commerce I believe.

 

[Dan Kone]

No good deed goes unpunished.

Lying to people in order to promote your own self interests isn't a good deed.

All I have ever suggested was that the efforts to do it all be split into three separate efforts so that we pass something in 2012.

And said things like people who disagree with you want to have all growers arrested.

Now if there is a continuance of harassment towards me then it had better be presented in context of the subject of the thread because I am working here for the betterment of the forum and Dan you are not.
You are being a selfish bastard who insists everything has to be your way.

I insist on the truth and insist that people are objective as well as practical. You do none of the above.

That polll-fight Dan made is the stupid shit not the efforts and polls I made.

Only because you lost. Do you really think the will of the majority is stupid and everyone should just think what you want them to think?

 

[Dan Kone]

Mods feel free to delete this thread. It wasn't my decision to have another bitch fight.

I see. Anything that goes against Ernest's opinions should be deleted. How nice.