God and Free Will.

Snow Crash

Well-Known Member
There are some theories on the multi-verse.

In many definitions the number of parallel universes is unlimited, while in some quantum interpretations there is a limit despite being vast. Then in some theories there are only a few universes parallel to us, in which things bounce into and out of.

In these systems, where there are only a few universes, it is like one reality stacked on top of another. Like pieces of paper, or strings on a harp. The concept is that the energy in our reality is a kind of vibration of the multi-dimensional strings of space-time. The kind of frequency a string vibrates at determines the particle it represents, from quarks to electrons. Our reality is "humming" like a plucked string on a guitar because at a point about 14 to 16 billion years ago the two realities collided for a very brief moment. The collision caused a reverberation in both universes. So it would be that on one side of us is a completely opposite-verse. The rules, universal constants like the mass of sub-atomic particles, would be very different and it could be extremely unlike our own universe. Then to the other side of us is an utterly empty universe.

There are many interpretations of the multi-verse theory and they are not all infinite. Yet, despite the quantity of realities this doesn't make free-will or choice any more free. Whichever concept you subscribe to still leaves the undeniable truth that our perception of one event occurring before or after another is a human condition. The omniscient observer sees the "pluck" of the string as a single event rather than a series, and we are simply caught up in the swirling energy of the universe.

When you start to see just how small we are, how short a period of time we have existed, and to think we are somehow more special than we already are... I dunno... I don't need a God to endow me with his image to feel both important and minuscule in the Great Show. Trying to understand what existence is, where it rises from, and why. What we are made of, and what makes it up, and how I can influence my perception of the future before returning to the energy cycle... This is the path I find that, at some point, the deeper I look down it... There must be a God to place the universes in motion. Why should anything exist at all?

I feel lucky and blessed just to have an opportunity to experience it. If it is destiny... Then I am okay with accepting that and trying to enjoy the humor and beauty that this short life will be.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
That was kind of my first point. Free will is choice. Even if God knows what choice your going to make(Destiny), you still make the choice and made the choices that lead up to that choice. At least that is what I believe.
What was your first point, cause my post didn't have anything close to what you just said.
 

Beagle

Well-Known Member
I think my point was, God exists past, present, future. God knows that I chose to drink the milk because from a future perspective, I already have.

Sorry, I'm having trouble putting this into words.
This is just what I believe even if you declare it's ridiculous.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
I think my point was, God exists past, present, future. God knows that I chose to drink the milk because from a future perspective, I already have.

Sorry, I'm having trouble putting this into words.
This is just what I believe even if you declare it's ridiculous.
What you just said is the reason why I say free will cannot exist with omniscience. How can our creator create us and not know exactly what we will do and thus intended us to do because he made us that way.
 

Beagle

Well-Known Member
If God gave us free will, which in my belief is choice, then he/she/it intended us to make decisions for ourselves. In my opinion, God knows what choices we will make in sort of the way you look at the choices you've already made in the past...from a future perspective.
 

Carne Seca

Well-Known Member
If God gave us free will, which in my belief is choice, then he/she/it intended us to make decisions for ourselves. In my opinion, God knows what choices we will make in sort of the way you look at the choices you've already made in the past...from a future perspective.
That's a very Mormon perspective. :p
 

Slojo69

Well-Known Member
You said that God didn't know what we would do when he made us. If he didn't, then he isn't all knowing and thus isn't omniscient. That was the whole point in my post. I am not saying that is how it is for a fact, I was just trying to get an idea of what people believe in regards to this. Free will and an omniscient creator cannot really exist in a rational/logical universe. I really wanted to know if anyone had any insight into it. Evolution has little to nothing to do with the opening post.
Sorry for the late response. But god knew EVERY outcome of EVERY decision that humans would make, according to the bible. All knowing and All powerful doesn't mean he knew exactly how things would play out. He knew what would happen if they disobeyed. It's like a master tactician reading the battlefield. He knows what will happen if the enemy atacks from the west and if they attack from the east. Does he know which way they will attack? No. Does he know what to do when the enemy makes their move? Most Definetely. The bible says that god began to regret making men Gen 6:6. Therefore, when you are talking about all knowing in your sense, the regret wouldn't make sense. Hope that clears up a few things
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Sorry for the late response. But god knew EVERY outcome of EVERY decision that humans would make, according to the bible. All knowing and All powerful doesn't mean he knew exactly how things would play out. He knew what would happen if they disobeyed. It's like a master tactician reading the battlefield. He knows what will happen if the enemy atacks from the west and if they attack from the east. Does he know which way they will attack? No. Does he know what to do when the enemy makes their move? Most Definetely. The bible says that god began to regret making men Gen 6:6. Therefore, when you are talking about all knowing in your sense, the regret wouldn't make sense. Hope that clears up a few things
Regret doesn't make sense for a 'perfect' being either. It is in this way that the terms used in the bible to describe their deity are flawed in and of themselves.
 

Slojo69

Well-Known Member
Regret doesn't make sense for a 'perfect' being either. It is in this way that the terms used in the bible to describe their deity are flawed in and of themselves.
that's a whole different topic tho. Him being all knowing and him being a "perfect" being are 2 separate points. But to go along with your perfect comment. Having regret means nothing. You can be perfect, play a basketball game perfectly and because you beat the other team in a championship, one of the players killed himself for it and blamed you. You could then have regret for playing basketball all together. Does that mean you are not perfect?
 

HuffPuppy

Member
There are some theories on the multi-verse.

In many definitions the number of parallel universes is unlimited, while in some quantum interpretations there is a limit despite being vast. Then in some theories there are only a few universes parallel to us, in which things bounce into and out of.

In these systems, where there are only a few universes, it is like one reality stacked on top of another. Like pieces of paper, or strings on a harp. The concept is that the energy in our reality is a kind of vibration of the multi-dimensional strings of space-time. The kind of frequency a string vibrates at determines the particle it represents, from quarks to electrons. Our reality is "humming" like a plucked string on a guitar because at a point about 14 to 16 billion years ago the two realities collided for a very brief moment. The collision caused a reverberation in both universes. So it would be that on one side of us is a completely opposite-verse. The rules, universal constants like the mass of sub-atomic particles, would be very different and it could be extremely unlike our own universe. Then to the other side of us is an utterly empty universe.

There are many interpretations of the multi-verse theory and they are not all infinite. Yet, despite the quantity of realities this doesn't make free-will or choice any more free. Whichever concept you subscribe to still leaves the undeniable truth that our perception of one event occurring before or after another is a human condition. The omniscient observer sees the "pluck" of the string as a single event rather than a series, and we are simply caught up in the swirling energy of the universe.

When you start to see just how small we are, how short a period of time we have existed, and to think we are somehow more special than we already are... I dunno... I don't need a God to endow me with his image to feel both important and minuscule in the Great Show. Trying to understand what existence is, where it rises from, and why. What we are made of, and what makes it up, and how I can influence my perception of the future before returning to the energy cycle... This is the path I find that, at some point, the deeper I look down it... There must be a God to place the universes in motion. Why should anything exist at all?

I feel lucky and blessed just to have an opportunity to experience it. If it is destiny... Then I am okay with accepting that and trying to enjoy the humor and beauty that this short life will be.
Snow, I've been drawn to brane theory much more in the last few years. We should smoke sometime... ;)
 

Snow Crash

Well-Known Member
Snow, I've been drawn to brane theory much more in the last few years. We should smoke sometime... ;)
I'm usually a little too heady for people.

Mushrooms work though :)

I'll be somewhere between Portland, OR and Santa Cruz, CA. Anytime brother!
 

Snow Crash

Well-Known Member
So time passes for God?

For him to say "Now" then it would follow that "before" God was unsure, but after, God is now certain.

A purely human description of events and a display of the quintessential philosophical blunder that is the old testament. As we know, the perception of the flowing of time (past/present/future) is a by-product of the human condition. Space-Time simply is. God would/should "exist" outside of the human temporal perception and this excerpt, forgive my blasphemy, is an obvious farce for those who have the mind to consider the work to be a merging of fiction and non-fiction. One must be wise and open minded to find the true face of God which has been buried and hidden behind texts, rather than presented honestly within them.
 

Slojo69

Well-Known Member
So time passes for God?

For him to say "Now" then it would follow that "before" God was unsure, but after, God is now certain.

A purely human description of events and a display of the quintessential philosophical blunder that is the old testament. As we know, the perception of the flowing of time (past/present/future) is a by-product of the human condition. Space-Time simply is. God would/should "exist" outside of the human temporal perception and this excerpt, forgive my blasphemy, is an obvious farce for those who have the mind to consider the work to be a merging of fiction and non-fiction. One must be wise and open minded to find the true face of God which has been buried and hidden behind texts, rather than presented honestly within them.
You are correct kinda. A day for god is like a thousand years for us. Genesis somewhere said it took 6 days of creation and on the 7th day he rested. Somewhere, may be genisis still, it explains how much time that would have been for us as humans. I forget the exact scripture and am too lazy to flip through the bible at the moment lol
 

Beagle

Well-Known Member
You are correct kinda. A day for god is like a thousand years for us. Genesis somewhere said it took 6 days of creation and on the 7th day he rested. Somewhere, may be genisis still, it explains how much time that would have been for us as humans. I forget the exact scripture and am too lazy to flip through the bible at the moment lol
Are you referring to time dilation?
 

Slojo69

Well-Known Member
Are you referring to time dilation?
That would be a hell of a difference, 1000 years to his one day for that to be time dilation lol. No I was referring to the fact that the bible says time moves slower for god than it does for his creations.

EDIT: Which could also be proof that other dimentions DO infact exist ... Yep you've just been mind fucked lol!
 

BrotherBuz

Active Member
For him to say "Now" then it would follow that "before" God was unsure, but after, God is now certain.
Anyone, who’s able to put the “damn” bong down . . . just for an hour, can readily understand that God has the ability to look into the future or not. After all, if he chose to know the final outcome of every event, that would be just boring. Don't you like to be surprised. :bigjoint:
 
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