God and Free Will.

[Carne Seca]

Well then.. i've been told then haven't i?



lol Sorry you took offense buddy-guy-friend. And investigate whatttt exactly!?

But "god" is a goddamn fuckin' douchebag, and you are too, if you side w/ an all powerful creator that has allowed and planned out all of this unnecessary death, deprivation, poverty, and loveliness.


I do have respect for people that give it and for things we can see/prove. Not just respecting something out of fear for being wrong. Which is basically fascism. If i die and i find myself standing there at the gate's w/ St. suck-my-Peter ill just say "So, WTF?! Was It A Good Show?"


Take care now buh-bye then.

Apparently you have a very loose grasp of Free Agency.

 

[Carne Seca]

The ole Free-will Paradox is alive and well.

It's a fascinating topic.

 

[Cloner X]

If he made us and knew how we would end up, then we don't have free will.

Am I missing something that would allow the two to mesh?

I think you're making this more complicated than it actually is. One can grant free will, even when having the ability to understand the outcome w/o being a puppet master. How is God's knowing which decision you're going to make hindering your own free will? It's not.

I give my children choices, too. Often times - knowing them well enough - i have a good idea of what choice they'll make, but for their own educational benefits i give them the ability to make the choice themselves and hence learn. They made the choice and learned from it while i gave them the ability to have the freedom to make that choice and learn from their own experience. The two are perfectly compatible.

 

[Brazko]

I think you're making this more complicated than it actually is. One can grant free will, even when having the ability to understand the outcome w/o being a puppet master. How is God's knowing which decision you're going to make hindering your own free will? It's not

God and Free Will

There is only 1 beginning and 1 end. I know this (theoretically speaking). Since 1 cannot exist without the other you can consider the 2 as 1 whole (god/God). There are infinite paths to take between these two points. However, I still know where you will start and the only place you can finish no matter what path you take.

It only gets confusing when allowed to be, usually due to the fact of attempting to deconstruct something of no literal logic, instead of taking that which is illogical and conceiving it logically. This is not an attempt to explain any specific literal religious text or deity, just my way of showing a logical variation to understanding the concept of Free Will without the cryptic hurdles. I'm sure the OP may have preferred the illogical instead. A better Read it would be Indeed

 

[Eric Miller]

If that is what label you wish to put onto me you are free to do so. But I do have to thank you for putting my beliefs down in a "subliminal" manner. I felt it necessary to say my religion so the people who may read it can get a different perspective from a different religion. because i feel that we are all trying to do is gain some knowledge on here. life is about knowledge.

 

[ESR360]

For "free will" to exist, there needs to be the concept of "I", as in me, my consciousness, my mind etc. Now once we have that concept, there are various ways of interpreting it. Is our mind and body separate? I think for free will to truly exist, the answer to this question has to be yes. If the mind and the body are not separate, then I do not think free will exists. There's a good scene in the movie "waking life" which explains it well. When we make a decision, what is the process that's going on brain? You could start from reverse, from when the signals reach your brain, to how the signals got there, to where the signals came from, to what created the signals etc etc.. and you start to look at it and you just have to think is it really my decision? If you look at the entire time line from requiring a decision to be made to the making of the decision, at what point do you fit in and make the decision? We certainly do not have any control over how our neurones and synapses work, nor do we have control over the external environmental factors. Could temperature affect decision? Would my mentality when I was too cold be significantly different to my mentality if I were too hot, to the extent my decision would be changed? It depends on the context I guess. But even if you needed to make a decision whether to take your sweater off or not, you would take it off when you felt like you became too hot. Do you choose this moment? Do you choose when you are too hot? What would ultimately drive you to take your sweater off? You're own choice? Based off what?

In summary, I don't think free will exists. Every action that me make is due to prior action of something else. Also, if this universe was replicated atom by atom, quark by quark etc, I think everything would pan out the exact same way. You might bring quantum physics into this and the random jolting of whatever it is, but I think in this parallel universe I have just described, the "random" movements would be just as random, ie, the same.

 

[mindphuk]

In summary, I don't think free will exists. Every action that me make is due to prior action of something else. Also, if this universe was replicated atom by atom, quark by quark etc, I think everything would pan out the exact same way. You might bring quantum physics into this and the random jolting of whatever it is, but I think in this parallel universe I have just described, the "random" movements would be just as random, ie, the same.

then they aren't truly random then.

Do you honestly think that all decisions are predetermined? When I was playing poker last night, I almost called a pre-flop bet with a weak hand in order to make a move. I should have done it because I would have made the joint on the flop. I decided I would wait for a different spot but in my mind it was still a random moment. How can you be sure in a parallel universe, I didn't make that bet and win the pot?

 

[ESR360]

then they aren't truly random then.

Do you honestly think that all decisions are predetermined? When I was playing poker last night, I almost called a pre-flop bet with a weak hand in order to make a move. I should have done it because I would have made the joint on the flop. I decided I would wait for a different spot but in my mind it was still a random moment. How can you be sure in a parallel universe, I didn't make that bet and win the pot?

No you are right, they aren't truly random, I was trying to insinuate that with what I said. They may be perceived as "random" in our 3 dimensional universe, but once you get beyond the 4th dimension, the word random, or any word we have to describe anything, pretty much becomes void. So if we are talking about 2 different parallel universes, we are talking about the 5th dimension, where random is nothing.

I think that whatever caused you to not call it, would also cause you to not call it in a parallel universe, assuming the parallel one is an exact replica atom by atom like I said before. There could have been thousands, even millions of factors which would have been taken account when you made your decision. It could be as small as a hand you called 10 years ago, it could be as small as the first time you tried coca cola. Whatever set of factors caused you to make that decision, would all be present in the parallel universe, thus, you would have always make that decision. Have you heard of Newcomb's paradox? It's quite interesting if you haven't already read about it and are interested in the free will - determinism debate.

 

[mindphuk]

No you are right, they aren't truly random, I was trying to insinuate that with what I said. They may be perceived as "random" in our 3 dimensional universe, but once you get beyond the 4th dimension, the word random, or any word we have to describe anything, pretty much becomes void. So if we are talking about 2 different parallel universes, we are talking about the 5th dimension, where random is nothing.

I think that whatever caused you to not call it, would also cause you to not call it in a parallel universe, assuming the parallel one is an exact replica atom by atom like I said before. There could have been thousands, even millions of factors which would have been taken account when you made your decision. It could be as small as a hand you called 10 years ago, it could be as small as the first time you tried coca cola. Whatever set of factors caused you to make that decision, would all be present in the parallel universe, thus, you would have always make that decision. Have you heard of Newcomb's paradox? It's quite interesting if you haven't already read about it and are interested in the free will - determinism debate.

I guess I understand you POV but why do you think this is reality? What kind of evidence do you have for this belief?

 

[Carthoris]

You're like the blind man that has to describe an Elephant by it's tail. It's a lot more complicated than you can imagine. According to Christian doctrine there was a war in Heaven and the Adversary was thrown down with those he corrupted which amounted to 1/3 the host of heaven. The war was about free agency. The Adversary wanted to force people to follow the will of God. Jesus stepped forward and offered himself as sacrifice for sake of humanity and to maintain free agency. People must choose to follow the Gospel and maintain their free will. Christ knew this and offered himself as sacrifice for the sins of mankind as they struggle through life and make mistakes. God cannot abide sin so no man can make it into Heaven by his own merits. It requires a mediator. Christ was that mediator. The fascinating aspect to this belief is the clear message that free will or free agency is an integral part of humanity and our spirituality. The fact that this scenario is going on in Heaven is a clear indication that free will was in full operation.

For free agency to truly work it must encompass all including God himself. He is bound by it. By choice. In a Christian perspective you can say that Evolution is the ultimate expression of free agency. There is great debate over this issue and you aren't the first to puzzle over it. I am just giving one perspective of a kaleidoscopic concept.

I understand how it is supposed to work in Christianity per the bible. It never really addresses my opening post in the bible except to say that free will exists and so does God being all powerful and all knowing. Even though the two seem to preclude each other.

 

[Carthoris]

I think what the OP is saying is that omniscience paired with omnipotence is incapable with free will.


[video=youtube;S6_9QmM6TfE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6_9QmM6TfE[/video]

Yes, that is what I was getting at. I did take some pain pills, a few beers, and smoke a little. Omniscience and omnipotence logically preclude free will. They really cannot exist together. Is there some logical argument to the contrary or just faith as an answer?

 

[moodster]

In Christianity/Judaism and other related religions there is the idea that there is 'free will' for humans. There is also the outright statement that God is all knowing, all powerful, and in the past, present, and future. So my issue is this:

If God is past, present, and future as well as being all powerful and all knowing then he must have known that when he made the humans how they would end up. IE: A bunch of assholes who didn't do what he wanted.

If God made us and didn't know how we would end up then he cannot be all powerful and all knowing. If he made us and knew how we would end up, then we don't have free will.

Am I missing something that would allow the two to mesh?

hope this helps brother

 

[Carthoris]

You can ride that circle all day. The thing that comes to mind is we have pretty limited understanding based on a pretty narrow perspective about what omniscience, omnipotence and free will really are.

Rationalism has it's limits.

If you don't follow the paths open to you, you will never reach your destination.

 

[Carthoris]

I think you're making this more complicated than it actually is. One can grant free will, even when having the ability to understand the outcome w/o being a puppet master. How is God's knowing which decision you're going to make hindering your own free will? It's not.

I give my children choices, too. Often times - knowing them well enough - i have a good idea of what choice they'll make, but for their own educational benefits i give them the ability to make the choice themselves and hence learn. They made the choice and learned from it while i gave them the ability to have the freedom to make that choice and learn from their own experience. The two are perfectly compatible.

You don't know what your children will do, you can guess. God knew Adam and Eve would do what they did and that your children would be the result of what Adam and Eve did. When you leave your car keys on your end table and the kids see it and decide to go for a joy ride you might of guessed they would do that. However, God knew with certainty even while he was creating Adam and Eve that your children were going to run your car into your garage door. Children are beyond our understanding, however, nothing is beyond Gods understand. A brick would make a much better comparison. If I make a concrete block from mortar and I give it free will then I drop it in a bucket of water, it will sink. I knew before hand it would sink in water and if I didn't want it to sink I would of made it out of foam. If I make a foam block, give it free will, and drop it into the bucket, it will float. The only way that the first block would float is if I didn't know anything about blocks and did something completely wrong and caused it to float. The second block I would have to really mess it up to cause it to sink. What does God want from us that he created us? He either wants us to be exactly as we are, in which case we have no free will. Or he wanted us to be something else, in which case he made us flawed. Which makes him less than perfect. I am not saying I don't believe in God or that the bible is wrong, what I am looking for is something to fix this glaring issue in what I believe is the very core of Christianity.

 

[Carthoris]

then they aren't truly random then.

Do you honestly think that all decisions are predetermined? When I was playing poker last night, I almost called a pre-flop bet with a weak hand in order to make a move. I should have done it because I would have made the joint on the flop. I decided I would wait for a different spot but in my mind it was still a random moment. How can you be sure in a parallel universe, I didn't make that bet and win the pot?

Predetermined or 'they are what they are' Is a rock predetermined to be a rock? I would guess so. Without a change in outside force everything is exactly what it is. I have no idea what the hell a flop and joint are.

 

[Carthoris]

hope this helps brother

LOL, it helps as much as the other posts did. I think it is one of those unanswerable questions, but you never know when the answer might be right in front of you. Consequently isn't that what Gary's wife told him when he lay dying on the floor and needed help? "Who fucking cares" then "I can't deal with this right now"

 

[Windsblow]

Well then.. i've been told then haven't i?



lol Sorry you took offense buddy-guy-friend. And investigate whatttt exactly!?

But "god" is a goddamn fuckin' douchebag, and you are too, if you side w/ an all powerful creator that has allowed and planned out all of this unnecessary death, deprivation, poverty, and loveliness.


I do have respect for people that give it and for things we can see/prove. Not just respecting something out of fear for being wrong. Which is basically fascism. If i die and i find myself standing there at the gate's w/ St. suck-my-Peter ill just say "So, WTF?! Was It A Good Show?"


Take care now buh-bye then.

With all that hatred I would find it hard not to be an Antheist. Poor guy.

 

[Windsblow]

Yes, that is what I was getting at. I did take some pain pills, a few beers, and smoke a little. Omniscience and omnipotence logically preclude free will. They really cannot exist together. Is there some logical argument to the contrary or just faith as an answer?

I think Deism has settled alot of these theologic and teleologic quirks, for me. God plays a role but I don't think he's Omniscient. I think Free will and God are not a contradiction. I think GOD has to obey the same laws of the Universe.

 

[mindphuk]

I think Deism has settled alot of these theologic and teleologic quirks, for me. God plays a role but I don't think he's Omniscient. I think Free will and God are not a contradiction. I think GOD has to obey the same laws of the Universe.

Now that would certainly be a more logically consistent god and has an infinitely higher chance of being correct than the extremely flawed xian deity, it still begs the question, where did that god come from? Do complex intelligent beings just spring into existence themselves? Or do they have to follow some sort of natural law like a Darwinian mode of increasing complexity? Starts to get harder and harder to justify the existence of a god. I went through a similar stage as you are in right now on my way to becoming a true skeptic of anything like a complex intelligent creator that owes it's existence to nothing.

 

[Windsblow]

Now that would certainly be a more logically consistent god and has an infinitely higher chance of being correct than the extremely flawed xian deity, it still begs the question, where did that god come from? Do complex intelligent beings just spring into existence themselves? Or do they have to follow some sort of natural law like a Darwinian mode of increasing complexity? Starts to get harder and harder to justify the existence of a god. I went through a similar stage as you are in right now on my way to becoming a true skeptic of anything like a complex intelligent creator that owes it's existence to nothing.

Yes, but the same holds true for us. Do we (as intelligent beings able to create and reason) owe are existance to nothing?

We can't say we aren't created but yet exist at the same time, can we?

Samantics? Maybe, but I exist and I didn't create myself. The same could hold true for GOD.