Am I Missing a Nutrient? Need Big Buds For Success

[Truth B Known]

for dense buds, use 1000w lights in cooled hoods, keep close to plants (depends on temp in room, and how you cool the lights, and strains, and nutes you use) but as far as i know the more light they get the more dense they are.. i go all organic- organic guano, organic fish emulsion, organic kelp, organic molasses) but ya, light, remember you lose like 25% of lumens every like foot or something the light has to travel.. something like that, i'm not a scientist. good luck bro!

 

[cervezacorona]

for dense buds, use 1000w lights in cooled hoods, keep close to plants (depends on temp in room, and how you cool the lights, and strains, and nutes you use) but as far as i know the more light they get the more dense they are.. i go all organic- organic guano, organic fish emulsion, organic kelp, organic molasses) but ya, light, remember you lose like 25% of lumens every like foot or something the light has to travel.. something like that, i'm not a scientist. good luck bro!

I think after the first 12", you lose 1/2 of the lumens every 6" thereafter. For example, 100 lumen light will make 100 lumens @ 12", 50 @ 18", and 25 @ 24".
More lumens the better, closer the light the better, without overheating your plants.

 

[cassinfo]

documented in a grow journal here, pics and everything but it was 2 400 watt CMH's I would never use an HPS LOL

I'm gonna do some research on these CMH bulbs and try to do what you did. A lbs would last me a good while. Anything less than a lbs and your claim is rubbish.LOL! Time to get start on me pot o gold ya little killer elves.

 

[donni101]

I have seen his journals. Real talk. This aint no bullshit. If you read the journals entirely you will become a follower of his methods and hang to every word.

 

[riddleme]

I'm gonna do some research on these CMH bulbs and try to do what you did. A lbs would last me a good while. Anything less than a lbs and your claim is rubbish.LOL! Time to get start on me pot o gold ya little killer elves.

Here are pics of that same plant I showed you earlier harvested last weekend, Got 4 ounces off her buds in the pics wiehed 424 grams wet. All I can say is not many growers here do what I do so good luck in your journey

 

[doc111]

This plant is 2 feet tall (measured from top of pot) the colas are 14 inches tall it is under a 400 watt light that is 25 inches above the canopy (so 4 feet above the pot) it only gets fed a general purpose 20-10-20 chem nute that only cost a dollar a pound, thats right I use this nute the whole way thru (in my last grow I pulled a pound and a half off 4 plants)

Please understand what I said about dialing in your garden is what matters not some fancy nute in a pretty bottle

But sometimes I like looking at pretty pictures while I'm working in my garden. What do I do then?

How's it going my friend? Nice looking plants, as always bro. I may need to consult with you when I get back. My wife tells me my white berry is having some freaky leaf issues. I've not seen what she's talking about, but from her description, I suspect it's a K uptake issue, but we'll see.

 

[riddleme]

But sometimes I like looking at pretty pictures while I'm working in my garden. What do I do then?:sad:

How's it going my friend? Nice looking plants, as always bro. I may need to consult with you when I get back. My wife tells me my white berry is having some freaky leaf issues. I've not seen what she's talking about, but from her description, I suspect it's a K uptake issue, but we'll see.

Hang a calendar LOL

Just PM me, you know I'm happy to take a look

 

[doc111]

Hang a calendar LOL

Just PM me, you know I'm happy to take a look

lmfao!!!!!!! That's really good advice! More people should listen to it and maybe there wouldn't be so many "What's wrong with my plants threads."

I appreciate it bro. Unfortunately I haven't been home for the last couple of weeks and she looked perfect when I left. My wife has been following my instructions to the letter but you know how that goes down. Hopefully I can get it sorted out quickly. Thanks again and keep 'em green!

 

[BudMcLovin]

I think after the first 12", you lose 1/2 of the lumens every 6" thereafter. For example, 100 lumen light will make 100 lumens @ 12", 50 @ 18", and 25 @ 24".
More lumens the better, closer the light the better, without overheating your plants.

You need to use the Inverse square law to determine loss of lumens over a distance. Take your lumens/distance squared. My bulb is 88,000 lumens so:
@1 ft= 88,000

@2ft 88,000/4= 44,000

@3ft 88,000/9=9,778

@4ft 88,000/16=5,500

 

[riddleme]

You need to use the Inverse square law to determine loss of lumens over a distance. Take your lumens/distance squared. My bulb is 88,000 lumens so:
@1 ft= 88,000

@2ft 88,000/4= 44,000

@3ft 88,000/9=9,778

@4ft 88,000/16=5,500

Problem with that is the plant can't see Lumens

 

[BudMcLovin]

True but the formula is handy. It helps determine light intensity at a given distance and understanding exactly how much light is reaching your plants.

 

[riddleme]

True but the formula is handy. It helps determine light intensity at a given distance and understanding exactly how much light is reaching your plants.

How much light (as humans see light) Yes, how much PAR,,,,,,,,,,,,No

Light is the most misunderstood element of most indoor gardens

 

[HarryCarey]

Ahhh Photosynthetically Active Radiation, so does that diminish from the source as quickly as lumens do from artificial light

 

[BudMcLovin]

True light is largely misunderstood by a lot of growers hell I understand the basics but that’s about it. I know enough to know that you buy an hps light for flower because that’s the wavelength the plant needs. I have the exact wavelengths written down in my first grow journal. But considering most hps grow lights use pretty much the same wavelengths I don’t worry about that too much. Plus the inverse square law helps me understand the relationship between distance and light intensity. While it may not translate perfectly to how the plant “sees” the light it helps me understand why a 400 watt light isn’t the best for 5 ft plants.

 

[riddleme]

Did not post here to argue, I posted here because there is way to much bad info spread everyday on this forum.

While you might think that a 400 watter is not proper for a 5 foot plant, you would once again be wrong, plant in the pic is 5 foot tall was grown under a 400 watt light, notice how healthy the bottom leaves are.

As I stated earlier, it is all the elements of your garden properly dialed in that make for a great grow, light is simply one of those elements

 

[HarryCarey]

Your so antagonistic RM3....starting to sound just like UncleBen......I do recommend new growers read your and UB's material but you make it difficult.....I grow under 1 400HPS and got 6 oz's off my Pineapple Express using foxfarm trio and roots organic soil amended with only perlite and dolomite.....that plant was 4 feet tall from the pot, but the first 10 inches or so were trimmed (pics if needed).....Im wondering if you have measured the PAR of your lights (CMH, MH, HPS) that would be nice info to have.....tho im sure I'll get flamed because you probably already answered this in some obscure thread a year and a half ago


And please forgive me for the attitude just tired of you "genius" growers being to good for the rest of us

 

[riddleme]

Your so antagonistic RM3....starting to sound just like UncleBen......I do recommend new growers read your and UB's material but you make it difficult.....I grow under 1 400HPS and got 6 oz's off my Pineapple Express using foxfarm trio and roots organic soil amended with only perlite and dolomite.....that plant was 4 feet tall from the pot, but the first 10 inches or so were trimmed (pics if needed).....Im wondering if you have measured the PAR of your lights (CMH, MH, HPS) that would be nice info to have.....tho im sure I'll get flamed because you probably already answered this in some obscure thread a year and a half ago


And please forgive me for the attitude just tired of you "genius" growers being to good for the rest of us

Not tryin to antagonize, much like Uncle Bens pet peeve is snake oils, mine is light. It is not fair IMO to spread bad info to new growers, those that follow my threads know I have put in thousands of hours here trying to spread the truth. In no way do I think I am better than anyone, but I feel that "true" medical patients should not have to wade thru tons of crap to learn how to grow their own medicine

And of course I cover lumens & par as well as CMH info in my threads

 

[HarryCarey]

Ya i do understand your pet peeves, as well as UncleBens, and understand your want to clarify a lot of the bad info out there especially for Med patients. And Im glad I didnt touch a nerve, I believe I need to medicate this mornin

Should we have a standard Macro and Micro nute chart sticky(UB already have one?) that everyone could be referred to......as well as a PAR/Lumens.......and snake oil do/don'ts i.e. Advanced Nutrients

Heres that P.E. I talked about for the record....first one two weeks before harvest, second one during harvest

 

[riddleme]

Here are the nutes,

16 Elements Necessary for Plants
The performance of your plants is directly related to the degree of the fertility of your soil. Like humans, plants require certain elements to grow well and to remain healthy.
Below is a list of elements essential for plant growth. On the right are some sources from which plants may receive these elements.

Carbon (C)
Hydrogen (H)
Oxygen (O)
Nitrogen (N)​

Phosphorus (P)
Potassium (K)
Calcium (Ca)
Magnesium (Mg)
Sulfur (S)
Boron (B)
Chlorine (CI)
Copper (Cu)
Iron (Fe)
Manganese (Mn)
Molybdenum (Mo)
Zinc (Zn)​

From air and Water ​

From Air and Soil​

​

From Soil and Fertilizers
​

Plants also contain Cobalt (Co), Iodine (I), Selenium (Se) and Sodium (Na), which are necessary to humans and animals which consume the plants, but which do not seem to be necessary for the survival of plants. Aluminum (Al) and Silicon (Si) are also present in plants, but are not deemed necessary for humans nor animals for their survival.

​

Elements Required by Plants and Obtained From Soil and Fertilizers
Major Nutrients: Nitrogen (N), Phosphorus (P), and Potassium (K)
Secondary Nutrients: Calcium (Ca), Magnesium (Mg), and Sulfur (S)
Micronutrients or Trace Elements: Boron (B), Chlorine (CI), Copper (Cu), Iron (Fe), Manganese (Mn), Molybdenum (Mo), and Zinc (Zn)

What These Elements Do for Plants

Major Nutrients
Nitrogen (N) is the main nutrient for strong, vigorous growth, good leaf color, and photosynthesis. Plants that are almost all leaf (such as lawn grasses) need plenty of nitrogen, so the first number in fertilizers for lawns is especially high because grass must continuously renew itself after mowing. The higher the number, the more nitrogen the fertilizer provides.
Phosphorous (P) promotes root development which helps strengthen plants. It also increases blooms on flowers and the ripening of seeds and fruit. Lots of phosphorous is great for bulbs, perennials, and newly planted trees and shrubs. They depend on strong roots, so fertilizers meant for these plants often have high middle numbers.
Potassium (K) improves the overall health of plants. It helps them withstand very hot or cold weather, defend against diseases, helps fruit formation, photosynthesis, and the uptake of other nutrients. Potassium works along with Nitrogen so if you add nitrogen to the soil, it is important to add potassium at the same time. Most soils already have some potassium, so the third number in the fertilizer analysis is usually smaller than the other two. Fertilizers for some tropical plants, especially palms, contain extra potassium because these plants have a special need for it.
Secondary Nutrients
Calcium (Ca) is important for general plant vigor and promotes good growth of young roots and shoots. Calcium also helps to build cell walls.

Magnesium (Mg) helps regulate uptake of other plant foods and aids in seed formation. As it is contained in Chlorophyll, it is also important in the dark green color of plants and for the ability of a plant to manufacture food from sunlight.

Sulfur (S) helps maintain a dark green color while encouraging more vigorous plant growth. Sulfur is needed to manufacture Chlorophyll.
Trace Elements
Boron (B) helps in cell development and helps to regulate plant metabolism.
Chlorine (CI) is involved in photosynthesis.
Copper (Cu) helps plants to metabolize nitrogen.
Iron (Fe) assists in the manufacture of chlorophyll and other biochemical processes.
Manganese (Mn) is needed for chlorophyll production.
Molybdenum (Mo) helps plants to use nitrogen.
Zinc (Zn) is used in development of enzymes and hormones. It is used by the leaves and needed by legumes to form seeds.

 

[riddleme]

here is the lights,

Light and Plants

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Watts, Lumens, Photons and Lux[/FONT]​

As the importance of artificial light in the plant growing industry has increased, lamp manufacturers have begun to rate lamps specifically for plant needs.This article discusses and compares the different measures of " light level" that are currently used for plant growth and hydroponic applications. Light level is one of the important variables for optimizing plant growth, others being light quality, water, carbon dioxide, nutrients and environmental factors. The appendix describes a step-by-step approach to developing a simple lighting layout using the PAR watt ratings of light sources.
In recent years, it has become increasingly cost-effective to use artificial lights for assisting plant growth. Lighting costs and lamps have become less expensive, and very efficient light sources are now available in high wattages. These developments along with the ability to preserve and transport plants and produce as well as special new products in demand today have resulted in a lucrative market for hydroponic products, that is, products grown without soil.


Artificial light can be used for plant growth in three different ways:

1. 1. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To provide all the light a plant needs to grow[/FONT]
   2. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To supplement sunlight, especially in winter months when daylight hours are short.[/FONT]
   3. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To increase the length of the "day" in order to trigger specific growth and flowering.[/FONT]

PAR and Plant Response Curve
Just as humans need a balanced diet, plants need balanced, full-spectrum light for good health and optimum growth. The quality of light is as important as quantity. Plants are sensitive to a similar portion of the spectrum as is the human eye. This portion of the light spectrum is referred to as photosynthetically active radiation or PAR, namely about 400 to 700 nanometers in wavelength. Nevertheless, plant response within this region is very different from that of humans.
The human eye has a peak sensitivity in the yellow-green region, around 550 nanometers. This is the "optic yellow" color used for highly visible signs and objects. Plants, on the other hand, respond more effectively to red light and to blue light, the peak being in the red region at around 630 nanometers. The graphs below show the human eye response curve and the plant response curve. Note the vast difference in the contours.

In the same way fat provides the most efficient calories for humans, red light provides the most efficient food for plants. However, a plant illuminated only with red or orange light will fail to develop sufficient bulk. Leafy growth (vegetative growth) and bulk also require blue light. Many other complex processes are triggered by light required from different regions of the spectrum. The correct portion of the spectrum varies from species to species. However, the quantity of light needed for plant growth and health can be measured, assuming that all portions of the spectrum are adequately covered. Light for plants cannot, however, be measured with the same standards used to measure light for humans. Some basic definitions and distinctions follow that are useful in determining appropriate ways to measure the quantity of light for hydroponic plant growth.

Measuring Light for Humans: Lumens and Lux
First, how do we measure light quantity for humans? The obvious way is based on how bright the source appears and how "well" the eye sees under the light. Since the human eye is particularly sensitive to yellow light, more weight is given to the yellow region of the spectrum and the contributions from blue and red light are largely discounted. This is the basis for rating the total amount of light emitted by a source in lumens.
The light emitted from the source is then distributed over the area to be illuminated. The illumination is measured in "lux", a measurement of how many lumens falls on each square meter of surface. An illumination of 1000 lux implies that 1000 lumens are falling on each square meter of surface. Similarly, "foot-candles" is the term for the measure of how many lumens are falling on each square foot of surface.
Clearly, both lumens and lux (or foot-candles) refer specifically to human vision and not to the way plants see light.
How then should the rating for plant lighting be accomplished? There are two basic approaches to develop this rating: measuring energy or counting photons.

PAR Watts for Plants
Watts is an objective measure of energy being used or emitted by a lamp each second. Energy itself is measured in joules, and 1 joule per second is called a watt. A 100 watt incandescent bulb uses up 100 joules of electrical energy every second. How much light energy is it generating? About 6 joules per second or 6 watts, but the efficiency of the lamp is only 6%, a rather dismal number. The rest of the energy is dissipated mainly as heat. Modern discharge lamps like high pressure sodium (HPS) and metal halide convert (typically) 30% to 40% of the electrical energy into light. They are significantly more efficient than incandescent bulbs.
Since plants use energy between 400 and 700 nanometers and light in this region is called Photosynthetically Active Radiation or PAR, we could measure the total amount of energy emitted per second in this region and call it PAR watts. This is an objective measure in contrast to lumens which is a subjective measure since it is based on the response of the subjects (humans). PAR watts directly indicates how much light energy is available for plants to use in photosynthesis.
The output of a 400 watt incandescent bulb is about 25 watts of light, a 400 watt metal halide bulb emits about 140 watts of light. If PAR is considered to correspond more or less to the visible region, then a 400 watt metal halide lamp provides about 140 watts ofPAR. A 400 watt HPS lamps has less PAR, typically 120 to 128 watts, but because the light is yellow it is rated at higher lumens (for the human eye).
"Illumination" for plants is measured in PAR watts per square meter. There is no specific name for this unit but it is referred to as "irradiance" and written, for example, as 25 watts/square meter or 25 w/m2.

Photons
Another means of measuring light quantity for plant growth involves the understanding that light is always emitted or absorbed in discrete packets called "photons." These packets or photons are the minimum units of energy transactions involving light. For example, if a certain photosynthetic reaction occurs through absorption of one photon of light, then it is sensible to determine how many photons are falling on the plant each second. Also, since only photons in the PAR region of the spectrum are active in creating photosynthesis, it makes sense to limit the count to PAR photons. A lamp could be rated on how many actual tiny photons it is emitting each second. At present no lamp manufacturer does this rating.
Instead, plant biologists and researchers prefer to talk of the flux of photons falling each second on a surface. This is the basis of PPF PAR with PPF standing for Photosynthetic Photon Flux, a process which actually counts the number of photons falling per second on one square meter of surface. Since photons are very small, the count represents a great number of photons per second, but the number does provide a meaningful comparison.
Another measure appropriate for plant growth, called YPF PAR or Yield Photon Flux, takes into account not only the photons but also how effectively they are used by the plant. Since red light (or red photons) are used more effectively to induce a photosynthesis reaction, YPF PAR gives more weight to red photons based on the plant sensitivity curve.
Since photons are very small packets of energy, rather than referring to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 photons, scientists conventionally use the figure "1.7 micromoles of photons" designated by the symbol "µmol." A µmol stands for 6 x 1017 photons; 1 mole stands for 6 x 1023 photons. Irradiance (or illumination) is therefore measured in watts per square meter or inmicromoles (of photons) per square meter per second, abbreviated as µmol.m-2.s-1
The unit "einstein" is sometimes used to refer to one mole per square meter per second. It means that each second a 1 square meter of surface has 6 x 1023 photons falling on it. Irradiance levels for plant growth can therefore be measured in micro-einsteins or in PAR watts/sq. meter.
These three measures of photosynthetically active radiation, PAR watts per square meter, PPF PAR and YPF PAR are all legitimate, although different, ways of measuring the light output of lamps for plant growth. They do not involve the human eye response curve which is irrelevant for plants. Since plant response does "spill out" beyond the 400 nanometer and 700 nanometer boundaries, some researchers refer to the 350 – 750 nanometer region as the PAR region. Using this expanded region will lead to mildly inflated PAR ratings compared to the more conservative approach in this discussion. However, the difference is small.

Photosynthesis and Photomorphogenesis
Plants receiving insufficient light levels produce smaller, longer (as compared to wide) leaves and have lower overall weight. Plants receiving excessive amounts of light can dry up, develop extra growing points, become bleached through the destruction of chlorophyll, and display other symptoms of excessive stress. Plants are also damaged by excessive heat (infrared) radiation or extreme ultraviolet (UV) radiation.
Within the acceptable range, however, plants respond very well to light with their growth rate being proportional to irradiance levels. The relative quantum efficiency is a measure of how likely each photon is to stimulate a photosynthetic chemical reaction. The curve of relative quantum efficiency versus wavelength is called the plant photosynthetic response curve as shown earlier in this section.
It is also possible to plot a curve showing the effectiveness of energy in different regions of the spectrum in producing photosynthesis. The fact that blue photons contain more energy than red photons would need to be taken into account, and the resulting curve could be programmed into photometry spheres to directly measure "plant lumens" of light sources instead of "human lumens." This is likely to happen at some point in the future. In fact, manufacturers like Venture Lighting International provide PAR watt ratings for their Sunmaster line of lamps designed for the plant growth market.
The main ingredient in plants that is responsible for photosynthesis is chlorophyll. Some researchers extracted chlorophyll from plants and studied its response to different wavelengths of light, believing that this response would be identical to the photosynthetic response of plants. However, it is now known that other compounds (carotenoids and phycobilins) also result in photosynthesis. The plant response curve, therefore, is a complex summation of the responses of several pigments and is somewhat different for different plants. An average is generally used which represents most plants, although individual plants may vary by as much as 25% from this curve. While HPS and incandescent lamps are fixed in their spectral output, metal halide lamps are available in a broad range of color temperatures and spectral outputs. With this in mind, the discriminating grower can choose a lamp that provides the best spectral output for his specific needs.
In addition to photosynthesis which creates material growth, several other plant actions (such as germination, flowering, etc.) are triggered by the presence or absence of light. These functions, broadly classified as photomorphogenesis, do not depend much on intensity but on the presence of certain types of light beyond threshold levels. Photomorphogenesis is controlled by receptors known as phytochrome, cryptochrome, etc., and different plant functions are triggered in response to infra red, blue or UV light.

Summary
Plants "see" light differently than human beings do. As a result, lumens, lux or footcandles should not be used to measure light for plant growth since they are measures used for human visibility. More correct measures for plants are PAR watts, PPF PAR and YPF PAR, although each in itself does not tell the whole story. In addition to quantity of light, considerations of quality are important, since plants use energy in different parts of the spectrum for critical processes.