Cultivating marijuana would no longer be a mandatory felony in California bill

[Ernst]

I just came back from dinner. I thought to add some food for thought:

The worst thing the Anti-Cannabis people can do now is to support full legalization in 2012 however, given the current deflation we would be better off doing the Legalization in 2012 too because the market will stabilize after that.
I assume that is why the Lee group thinks 2016 or 2014 is the answer.. Well it might be if the people get no rights when they offer us an initiative.. Other wise granting rights in 2014 or 2016 could send the market back down just when everyone else is recovering.
With the potential decline in punishment for cultivation I can see that the "winds of change" are blowing against profiting at inflated cannabis prices.. I assume a lot more folks will not fear being busted for first time grow ops once it is probation or a year in county.
I Say best to take the punch in the gut bravely, Legalize for the people.. Level the playing field and we all will be in the same boat on the rebound of cannabis prices some where around 2015. Give or take a year, if we legalize..
Again I'll point out that it's very risky to add suppliers to the cannabis market in the middle of a rebound. Best to Legalize in 2012.. Trying to accommodate a whole new wave of producers in 2014 or 2016 will not be good for prices if we wait for 2014 or 2016.. Best to get them legalized now and let the deflation cycle do it's worst.

So, What can you add Matt?

I had a wonderful Italian meal. Sadly all I want to do now is watch T.V.

I'll check back tomorrow.

Ernst

 

[Matt Rize]

Let me try it again Matt, You tell me I am against this because I don't do that. So you discredit me and say you are not doing it. Speaking for me are ya.. But forget that.. Pissing on each other is a waste of time.

I don't follow ya...

What is obvious is that we have a chance to legalize in 2012 for the people if we keep it simple this time.
If we try and toss an all or nothing Initiative in 2012 or 2016 like what prop 19 was or what the new-Jack is looking like then we will confuse people and once again we will have a No vote.

It's obvious that 2012 is already lost...

I'm suggesting we take a smaller simpler smaller step first and not depend on whatever is worth spending another Million on by those already making millions when others still go to prison.

Prison for what ernst? Slanging? Growing too much? Not taking the time to get a rec? Your rhetoric is way off base here.

So When I say no business let me be clear I am not saying we write that there will be no business, there already is, what I am saying is that rights for the people have taken a back seat to profits and to pass Legalization we have to appeal to the People.

Yes, the rights of people always take the back seat. Why is it that you expect this to not be true for cannabis?

Look I know the deflationary pressures are on but the Cannabis market is artificial to start with. We have to deflate.. Might as well Get Legalization while we deflate.. Waiting for 2016 won't stop the deflationary trend Matt.

Not sure what you are getting at here. I don't make money from growing.

I guess most don't know that all crops in California are inflating in value especially corn while cannabis is deflating.

Uh.. pretty much common knowledge. Herb is way over priced currently. I look forward to a day when outdoor takes over and indoor is not worth growing for sales.

The more of us with production the lower the over all value will be but is this about profits or Freedom?

2012 offers a chance to look to maybe the structure of prop 215 and draft simple language granting cannabis rights to the People of California.

I don't follow much of your rhetoric. Cannabis rights... dude you need to just forget that silly notion and work in reality. And again, I (and everyone but you) could give two shits about breeders who want over 99 plants.

 

[Ernst]

Have a look at the poll.

What the people want is a simple legalize for the people Initiative.

2012 lost? Only if it means it's an all or nothing.

I disappointed that people would suggest we roll over in 2012.

I'm going to see about organizing a "Baby Step for the people only" Initiative for 2012. You are welcome to join me.

Did you understand this post?

 

[Matt Rize]

Have a look at the poll.

What poll? Polls don't mean much honestly. People lie to pollster to not look bigoted, but then vote that way. Didn't 19 fail because the non-tokers voted it down, combined with low liberal turnout?

What the people want is a simple legalize for the people Initiative.

Again, your lofty rhetoric mixes reality with generalizations. The "people" want their cut of the canna pie, learn this. It's not about freedom or rights ERNST, it's about money...

2012 lost? Only if it means it's an all or nothing.

Missing the point again. What I meant by that is that the political environment is not set-up for success in 2012. There is no effort that has any backing of any sort, and we are patiently waiting on Rich Lee and his crew to put up a 'new and improved 19 for 2012' effort, for us to pick apart and argue over.

I disappointed that people would suggest we roll over in 2012.

I never suggested that. BUT this is politics and based on far more than your dream of "cannabis rights" or whatever. I suggest we pick a horse than can win the race. That's where my money will go. I'm waiting to see what Lee has for us.

I'm going to see about organizing a "Baby Step for the people only" Initiative for 2012. You are welcome to join me.

Did you understand this post?

Somewhat. For the people only is for sure what I want, but it's not going to happen. If we want to legalize on any level we will have to hand it over to corporations and big business. That's the 19.1 plan at least, and it is closest to an actually having a chance of passing, when compared to the other options on the table for 2012.

 

[The Ruiner]

Because the damn federal gov't set 99 as the limit. Trying to trump this with state level law is a false hope, and not realistic. Therefore, if we want to enact change (and not just wax philosophy and in reality change nothing) we must take steps that will lead to our success. What you want isn't worth supporting because there is no hope. Making state law that creates a grey area for us to operate, without crossing the 99 plant limit, is sufficient to 99% of cannabis users and growers. I refuse to sacrifice the entire thing so a couple wannabe breeders can throw up hundreds of plants. Uh... we don't need more breeders. That seat is already taken. The genetics we have to work with are diverse, and unless you are traveling the world for new varieties, I will respectfully suggest that we don't need your work.

And fyi: there are tons of breeders in CA already with hundreds and thousands of plants. Grow some stones if you want to be one of them. Focus on providing medicine for sick people, and recreational consumption/growing. So long as you work to create legislation that will be overturned by the fed, I cannot waste my time and/or money on your cause.

Yes, everyone Matt is right, the Nevada model has failed...
And whats with the discrimination of people doing what they WANT TO DO (like breeding)...even if Matt Rize doesnt approve?

After meeting with Rich Lee this week, it has become painfully clear that 2012 is already lost. In 2016 we will have another chance, and it will not look anything like the "ernst plan". It will be like 19, but probably worse for the home grower. Unless you got Soros in your pocket, I will respectfully suggest you abandon ship for a more realistic path.

Meeting with him seems like a problem to begin with...and I like how they are already SHAPING POLICY FOR THE PEOPLE...as if everyone elses' input is meaningless... I am seeing some disturbing patterns here of arrogance within the so-called "legalization" movement.

i'd suggest you've been smoking some charlie sheen.

That'd be cool to smoke with that guy...

That is the silliest interpretation of his post ever... I'd also suggest you take your head out of the sand regarding the regulation of intoxicants. You won't get to your destination if you won't travel the path. You seem to want to "beam me (us) up" to another society scotty.


What? Where did this come from? There is only one path to legalization, and handing the industry over to corporation is part of it. I hate to tell ya, but it's the truth.

I dont think Ernst has a problem with "corporations" I think this is more of a problem with those same corporations and "POLICY MAKERS" using their position and influence to essentially screw the home-grower over as a sacrifice FOR INDUSTRY.

If legalization of any sort was your goal you would be blindly backing anything Lee ect put up as they have the money and real chance of passing something. Not what I suggest, but let's be real about this. It takes money..

Yeah, this is some GREAT ADVICE...blindly vote for capitalist agenda in the name of freedom and legalization.

What poll? Polls don't mean much honestly. People lie to pollster to not look bigoted, but then vote that way. Didn't 19 fail because the non-tokers voted it down, combined with low liberal turnout?


Again, your lofty rhetoric mixes reality with generalizations. The "people" want their cut of the canna pie, learn this. It's not about freedom or rights ERNST, it's about money....

19 failed because PLENTY of tokers voted it down, whether it made a difference is anyones' guess.

I dont think you need to tell someone legalization ultimately means money...and didnt some asshole some long time ago say something like the "pursuit of property"...

Missing the point again. What I meant by that is that the political environment is not set-up for success in 2012. There is no effort that has any backing of any sort, and we are patiently waiting on Rich Lee and his crew to put up a 'new and improved 19 for 2012' effort, for us to pick apart and argue over.

I am not waiting for that guy to do shit...If the legislation isnt ready then I am not ready to vote for corporate weed a la prop 19.

 

[Matt Rize]

Yes, everyone Matt is right, the Nevada model has failed...
And whats with the discrimination of people doing what they WANT TO DO (like breeding)...even if Matt Rize doesnt approve?
Don't be silly. What I intended to convey is that tackling the 99 number is best left alone until rescheduling. Or the whole thing may come down in court.

Meeting with him seems like a problem to begin with...and I like how they arealready SHAPING POLICY FOR THE PEOPLE...as if everyone elses' input is meaningless... I am seeing some disturbing patterns here of arrogance within the so-called "legalization" movement.
Listen, I met with him to support a friend, who is working on a project for OU. I used this opportunity to talk legalization efforts because you and I both know it's going to take Soro's money to pass legislation. Soros is also part owner of Monsanto. I hate that. But it's true. They are shaping what legalization will look like. We have little say honestly. If stoners voted better that would not be true. It will be written to pass.

That'd be cool to smoke with that guy...
me too!

I dont think Ernst has a problem with "corporations" I think this is more of a problem with those same corporations and "POLICY MAKERS" using their position and influence to essentially screw the home-grower over as a sacrifice FOR INDUSTRY.
Well, I'm the one who is anti-corporate. Yes, home growers who sell their herbs will get screwed. I hate that, but it is part of normalization.

Yeah, this is some GREAT ADVICE...blindly vote for capitalist agenda in the name of freedom and legalization.
did you see where i advised against blind support? you quoted it.

19 failed because PLENTY of tokers voted it down, whether it made a difference is anyones' guess.
According to polls it failed for the primarily the two reasons I listed earlier: conservative turnout and liberals staying home.

I dont think you need to tell someone legalization ultimately means money...and didnt some asshole some long time ago say something like the "pursuit of property"...
yeah yeah, our founding father's would puke at the state of affairs in the us. corporations count as people (puked a little everytime I type that) what can I say? I am a realist. Money.

I am not waiting for that guy to do shit...If the legislation isnt ready then I am not ready to vote for corporate weed a la prop 19.

well, I happen to think it won't matter how we vote, like it didn't matter on 19. the next round will be written to pass, not for us. we had our best shot from them with 19 (and it was ugly), from here out it gets worse. just my 2cents

if the jack H 2012 initiative had better than a snowballs chance in hell of passing I'd be banging that drum all day.

 

[Ernst]

What is the common denominator about cannabis then?

If we look to Prop 19 the "The People" would still be criminals to grow and sell in areas where it is still illegal. That is hardly legalization.

I am aware about the problems that industry is creating. It looks like they, in the cart and horse analogy, believe not in horse pulls cart but that cart is motorized and the horse buys the hay from them.

When I was a young Man I attended a local equivalent of the Young Republicans club. There I learned about government and community action with a heavy dose of why Capitalism was better than socialism.
Years later the idea of "too big to fail" and Capitalism on the way up socialism on the way down for big corporations is directly against the basic tenants of American Capitalism. We have failed in our Capitalism.

So Matt may be suggesting that we must abandon all civil rights to cannabis to support the failing Capitalism.

Is that what you are saying Matt? Damn the people protect the profits?

Just asking so I understand you better.

 

[Matt Rize]

What is the common denominator about cannabis then?

If we look to Prop 19 the "The People" would still be criminals to grow and sell in areas where it is still illegal. That is hardly legalization.

I am aware about the problems that industry is creating. It looks like they, in the cart and horse analogy, believe not in horse pulls cart but that cart is motorized and the horse buys the hay from them.

When I was a young Man I attended a local equivalent of the Young Republicans club. There I learned about government and community action with a heavy dose of why Capitalism was better than socialism.
Years later the idea of "too big to fail" and Capitalism on the way up socialism on the way down for big corporations is directly against the basic tenants of American Capitalism. We have failed in our Capitalism.

So Matt may be suggesting that we must abandon all civil rights to cannabis to support the failing Capitalism.

Is that what you are saying Matt? Damn the people protect the profits?

Just asking so I understand you better.

There is no common denominator, assuming that one exists is a major flaw on your behalf.

Agreed on cart runs itself, sell feed to my horses. How is this different than any other industry?

Capitalism communism... no comment other than I think you mean "socialism" not communism

Your interpretations are lacking in understanding. To begin, your concept of civil rights to Cannabis is from another planet. I would like to see this idea turned to reality, but it is so far from happening legislatively that it is laughable.

"Damn the people": actually the opposite. damn the select few who pretend they need over 99 plants to accomplish their goals. Let's work on something that will actually pass because your lofty rhetoric doesn't even fly on cannabis forums, let alone the state voting scene. Protecting normal tokers and folks who grow their own is the best we can get. That will come with handing over the business end to corporations. This is reality. Face it, or keep your head in the sand and I'll tell you when it's over. Profits? Laughable ernst. Who ever said anything about profits. The money will all leave our hands and go to big business. How is that protecting my money?

Yes, I am ready to hand over my "profits" so that cannabis can be decriminalized. Your version of legalization, or the jack h 2012 version... not a chance and barely worth mentioning other than as a lesson in futility.

 

[Ernst]

Yes, everyone Matt is right, the Nevada model has failed...
And whats with the discrimination of people doing what they WANT TO DO (like breeding)...even if Matt Rize doesnt approve?


I am not waiting for that guy to do shit...If the legislation isnt ready then I am not ready to vote for corporate weed a la prop 19.

The last point is a good one. Why should anyone think now that we cannabis people have seen the game, know the price we "The People" are supposed to pay for a prop 19 like initiative, are going to buy into another screw the little guy Initiative in 2014+ ??

Now I say this again I collected signatures for California Cannabis Initiative last election cycle and that mean I, alone in a red county, stood up and interacted with the people. Among the points of view I understood to be fairly consistent is that we have been subject to arrest and we continue to struggle to keep cannabis going; that they would keep on doing it forever.

Are we going to sell out these people by picking industry over civil rights?

I think the larger picture effects us all but we can focus on a simpler approach that will change things for the better unless one believes "the people" are irrelevant.

We can Legalize for the people in 2012 and all the businesses that sell cannabis can rejoice that if they live in an area where they are allowed to sell to all, like we have dispensaries in some places and others, they will have a much larger market.
Those who live in red counties where canna-oppression still occurs, then at least "The People" could "Trade" without criminal penalty.

I had a lengthy conversation on the exercise/walking path here in town. It goes through farm land. I spoke with a local farm-man who had seen me smoking my cannabis as I walked my 10 miles one day and we spoke at length.
I shared openly and honestly all I knew of the movement and what I understand to be the current climate for legalization.
We went over a few things and we both agree children should be encouraged to do something with their lives beyond substance. I sided with cannabis can be around he, cannabis must be away.
Then we shared points of view about legalizing.
The two points that amazed him were that to eventually control access to cannabis that placing it in a store was the way to counter the supply lines that exist and the other point that shocked him was that to bring cannabis back down into the domain of a controllable realm that individual cannabis freedom was the only way.
He realized that once the canna-industry evolves then Cannabis sellers will be advertising for people to buy and use an a mass-commercial way and there would be no going back so, not supporting Legalization for all and not having stores locally meant that the opposition is actually supporting what he opposes. A rather amazing conversation nonetheless. What we both took away I believe is that it's time for left and right to exchange some boundaries when it comes to cannabis. Pro-Legalization needs to support controls and anti-cannabis needs to support individual rights.
Truthfully I believe that industry should serve the people and not that the people serve industry. This contrast may well define our times as we struggle with the flaws of American Capitalism as a means of social structure.

I'm not going to vote for an Initiative that fails to reward the very canna-folks that make canna-industry possible.
In my experience freedom doesn't impede commerce but commerce impedes freedom.

This conversation in this thread may well be a reflection of our greater struggle under American Capitalism. A time where we slowly accept the reality that we were never free just privileged.
A Time when we see who will be beating us down literally if it threatens their profits. Kinda Ka-Daffy huh.

So thanks for a reasoned voice in your reply.. I am just as messed up as the next guy and seriously dumbfounded that we the people will vote against ourselves in the name of money.

 

[Ernst]

There is no common denominator, assuming that one exists is a major flaw on your behalf.

Agreed on cart runs itself, sell feed to my horses. How is this different than any other industry?

Capitalism communism... no comment other than I think you mean "socialism" not communism

Your interpretations are lacking in understanding. To begin, your concept of civil rights to Cannabis is from another planet. I would like to see this idea turned to reality, but it is so far from happening legislatively that it is laughable.

"Damn the people": actually the opposite. damn the select few who pretend they need over 99 plants to accomplish their goals. Let's work on something that will actually pass because your lofty rhetoric doesn't even fly on cannabis forums, let alone the state voting scene. Protecting normal tokers and folks who grow their own is the best we can get. That will come with handing over the business end to corporations. This is reality. Face it, or keep your head in the sand and I'll tell you when it's over. Profits? Laughable ernst. Who ever said anything about profits. The money will all leave our hands and go to big business. How is that protecting my money?

Yes, I am ready to hand over my "profits" so that cannabis can be decriminalized. Your version of legalization, or the jack h 2012 version... not a chance and barely worth mentioning other than as a lesson in futility.

I'm not going to break that up so the reader can see thing in whole.

The Common denominate is Life and how we are to live it.
I've assumed Cannabis makes things better for people who consume it. From treating illness to offering entertainment. However I am reading from you that all the things that cannabis can do for people none is more important than making profit and that if we are not embracing that religion we cannot worship in the Canna-Temple.

Matt I'm gonna say this and I am saying this because I care. You have your head up your ass.

Choosing non-life money over living people and their freedom is dead wrong.

Now I am am thankful for this conversation but please take some time to audit yourself on what is best for your fellow citizens on Cannabis.

 

[Ernst]

If we draft an Initiative where we start simply in granting Horticulture, private trade and consumption freedom plus in that Initiative it states that it authorizes commercial ventures but that we leave that up to our elected officials to decide how then what is the problem?

Prop-19 attempted to change the law in a deep and meaningful way. It didn't offer true freedom nor did it offer horticulture rights to the people.

To think that waiting for people to forget we were almost screwed and blindly vote for the next 5x5 is rather silly don't you think?

All the Lee group or other who is against freedom for the people can do is delay us. Work against the very people they claim to be for.

This is very troubling.

Dose anyone care to comment?

 

[Matt Rize]

If we draft an Initiative where we start simply in granting Horticulture, private trade and consumption freedom plus in that Initiative it states that it authorizes commercial ventures but that we leave that up to our elected officials to decide how then what is the problem?

Prop-19 attempted to change the law in a deep and meaningful way. It didn't offer true freedom nor did it offer horticulture rights to the people.
AGREED

To think that waiting for people to forget we were almost screwed and blindly vote for the next 5x5 is rather silly don't you think?
Which is why I advised against blind voting several times on this thread!!!


All the Lee group or other who is against freedom for the people can do is delay us. Work against the very people they claim to be for.

This is very troubling.

Dose anyone care to comment?

Lee never claims to be for us. That is a huge misinterpretation of his intents. I think they can do more than delay us. If something like 19 passes, your agenda (which i commend theoretically) is done.

 

[Ernst]

We should be for us. another suggested common denominator.

I'll check back later tonight..

Readers feel free to jump in because this is not a fight between folks this is a conversation and your input is important.

 

[Matt Rize]

I am just as messed up as the next guy and seriously dumbfounded that we the people will vote against ourselves in the name of money.

See, this is a MAJOR misunderstanding that leads your whole argument to a dead end. This statement by you is not based on reality or fact or polls, but some obtuse misinterpretation of motivations and voting habits. We are deciding to give up our money for normalization... the opposite of what you have so WRONGLY assumed. why can't you understand that?

 

[Matt Rize]

We should be for us. another suggested common denominator.

I'll check back later tonight..

Readers feel free to jump in because this is not a fight between folks this is a conversation and your input is important.

lol ernst. no one has anything to say about your hopes for canna rights. as folks who live in reality know that it takes votes, not ideals.

 

[Ernst]

See, this is a MAJOR misunderstanding that leads your whole argument to a dead end. This statement by you is not based on reality or fact or polls, but some obtuse misinterpretation of motivations and voting habits. We are deciding to give up our money for normalization... the opposite of what you have so WRONGLY assumed. why can't you understand that?

You are correct in that it is based on observation and experience.
The poll is the one on this site by the way.. I assume you haven't found it yet.
Anyway what is my personal situation is or my abilities or disabilities are doesn't impact that folks want cannabis legalized.
We have to accept that those we do business with are using that money against us.
I'd say boycott all dispensaries that do not openly endorse full legalization for the people.

 

[Ernst]

lol ernst. no one has anything to say about your hopes for canna rights. as folks who live in reality know that it takes votes, not ideals.

What I see is someone who need to oppress descent and promote the illusion that they have manufactured consent so we all should stop trying.

Okay Matt? I know you are against my rights to cannabis unless it makes you money. Did I miss something?

 

[Matt Rize]

What I see is someone who need to oppress descent and promote the illusion that they have manufactured consent so we all should stop trying.

Okay Matt? I know you are against my rights to cannabis unless it makes you money. Did I miss something?

You are so far off base that I don't know how to answer. I don't make money from pounds or seeds or any of that homie, and I won't in the future. You are tripping.

 

[DelSlow]

Ernst, your ideas and visions are probably shared by most on this site. Of course we would like to grow as much plants as possible without repercussions. But sadly, after 70+ years of prohibition, most people have a negative view of cannabis. It has bean burned in their brains that cannabis is bad. No amount of documentaries or studies will change their perspective. And if any of us want SOME form of legalization then we need a proposition that will get votes.

That being said, prop 19, a conservative legalization prop, failed. Maybe a liberal prop would do better? I don't know. Get the 99 plant proposition on the ballot and we will see if you are right...

 

[Matt Rize]

Ernst, your ideas and visions are probably shared by most on this site. Of course we would like to grow as much plants as possible without repercussions. But sadly, after 70+ years of prohibition, most people have a negative view of cannabis. It has bean burned in their brains that cannabis is bad. No amount of documentaries or studies will change their perspective. And if any of us want SOME form of legalization then we need a proposition that will get votes.

That being said, prop 19, a conservative legalization prop, failed. Maybe a liberal prop would do better? I don't know. Get the 99 plant proposition on the ballot and we will see if you are right...

My magic 8 balls says: 2012 will be crap here in CA for decrim anything, the political environment is not right, the groups are underfunded and way behind at best. At least we aren't CO where it's moving backwards. My concern is that the next passable prop (because it takes 7 digits $$$ in advertising to pass anything in this state) will be slightly more conservative, but somehow shortened and simplified.