Wisconsin Revolt

[ink the world]

Actually turning your back on it is good in reality too. Why embrace a system that has a base in pushing and shoving to get it's way?
Tyranny of a majority doesn't somehow bestow right does it?
.

Reality?

Heres the reality:

The Kochs funnel millions of $ into conservative campaigns, they want to end environmental restrictions and bust the union. Billionares wanting to get richer while the rest of us bear the economic load.

The Gov. received a shitload of $ directly and also had a lot of Koch $ being spent attacking his opponent. This is simply the governor attempting to "pay back" his largest supporters at the cost of tax payers and workers.

LOL heard the "good" Governor on tape yet? Listen to this and then decide if this is the man and this is the policy you really want to get behind and support:
http://gretawire.blogs.foxnews.com/to-be-fair-you-need-to-hear-the-prank-governor-scott-walker-tape/

LOL the link is from a Fox "news" website so I cant be called a
"proggie" or a "liberal" for posting a link from anything but a conservative site.

Heard him admitting to thinking of sending goons into the crowd of protesters and not doing it because the political implications only?
Hear him accepting a free trip from "Koch" for his "hard work" when the fight is over
Hear Koch saying "we have a vested interest here" and then the Gov. replies "we sure do"

That tape is the most telling political development in a long time, the idiot lays out the whole game plan of breaking the unions in a multi state move. Kinda funny how he WILL NOT take phone calls from union leaders and state senators but is giddy to hear from David Koch Dont forget that buried in this bill is that the Gov. wants to be able to sell the states power plants in a no bid deal.....Hmm I wonder who would end up buying those plants?

Im gonna laugh my ass off when he is either is removed from office for ethics violations or even criminal prosecution. Cant wait to see how the far right is gonna try to spin this one, the tapes dont lie.

 

[Coolwhip]

The Unions had ALREADY agreed to almost EVERY financial concession demanded of them...

The Republicans told the Union leaders they had a deal....but then when it came time to move forward they demanded they give up their collective bargaining rights.

That is what this is about, it isn't the Unions holding the state hostage, the Unions have tried EVERYTHING to make a deal without giving up their bargaining rights, they have agreed to every concession. This isn't about the deficit, this is about destroying the unions.

 

[mindphuk]

The Unions had ALREADY agreed to almost EVERY financial concession demanded of them...

The Republicans told the Union leaders they had a deal....but then when it came time to move forward they demanded they give up their collective bargaining rights.

That is what this is about, it isn't the Unions holding the state hostage, the Unions have tried EVERYTHING to make a deal without giving up their bargaining rights, they have agreed to every concession. This isn't about the deficit, this is about destroying the unions.

It's about ending the mistake of public-sector unions, not unions in general.

 

[Rob Roy]

 

[Mike Young]

51k per year salary isn't really that great. You'd like to see teachers paid less? Hell, why pay em at all?

I got it. Lets make all schools private. Then find a way to make them profitable. Mmmm. That sounds nice. Profit... We can trade their stock on the free market. And place bets on the ones that are doomed to failure. We're probably gonna need some new schools built to give the appearance that things are on the up. Get halliburton on the phone...we gotta start drawing up these contracts.

 

[NoDrama]

51k per year salary isn't really that great. You'd like to see teachers paid less? Hell, why pay em at all?

I got it. Lets make all schools private. Then find a way to make them profitable. Mmmm. That sounds nice. Profit... We can trade their stock on the free market. And place bets on the ones that are doomed to failure. We're probably gonna need some new schools built to give the appearance that things are on the up. Get halliburton on the phone...we gotta start drawing up these contracts.

Except they only work 3/4 of the year and don't pay for any of their Benefits. They actually would make about 105K a year if they worked all year and payed for some of their own benefits like the rest of us do. 105K a year for a teacher seems kind of excessive, especially when you consider that our kids have been doing worse and worse on standardized testing. US SAT scores rank THIRD FROM THE BOTTOM!!!

 

[ink the world]

It's about ending the mistake of public-sector unions, not unions in general.

I completely disagree, this is about political power and in the end about busting all unions. They want this to be the firs step, the Governor pretty much admitted so on that tape.

In 2010 7 out of the top 10 political contributors were conservative groups. The other 3 were the unions who almost always support Dems.

People like the Koch's and their groups pretty much dominate the $ spent on politics, by eliminating the unions they completely take financial control and have no real competing voice.

 

[Coolwhip]

NoDrama, are you SERIOUSLY fucking arguing that teachers are OVERCOMPENSATED? Are you FUCKING RETARDED?

Teachers have to go through as much or more schooling as other professionals which make much more than they do,
not to mention the super HIGH stress levels teachers have to endure day in and day out. And teachers don't only work in the classroom
they work from home almost every night, and over the summer they have to make new lesson plans, go to seminars, take college courses
to keep them up to date or earn new degrees so they can be better teachers.

Good teachers work YEAR ROUND but only get paid for 3/4 of it.

Plus, teachers are constantly forced to buy school supplies with money out of their own pockets because the schools are so underfunded. And they
don't work for 3/4 of the year, they get MONTH off in the summer, thats it, the last and first day of school for students are NOT the last and first
day of school for teachers. How is that any different than the 4+ weeks paid vacation every other professional gets? Trust me, thanksgiving and winter breaks aren't breaks for teachers.

And how did you come up with that 105k number? I would REALLY love for you to break that down for me. Because it seems to me like you just pulled it out of your ass.

What kind of ass-backwards world view do you have, that you think the people responsible for educating and training the next generation of Americans should be on the bottom of the payscale. Teachers have the MOST IMPORTANT JOB IN THE WORLD, without teachers we would have NO FUTURE, you can't say that about ANY other single profession. Teachers should be at the TOP of the payscale.

And you talk about falling marks for students....well maybe if teachers were better compensated we could attract better ones...

How do you expect to improve the education system if teachers are paid so low the only people who would even consider going into teaching are either, stupid, lazy, or pedophiles.

The only way to improve the education system is to INCREASE teacher compensation so we can get TRUE educational professionals in those classrooms.

Just look at the difference in pay between a college professor and a high school teacher...

 

[Mike Young]

I suppose you include your benefits in your yearly salary figures? Because I never met anybody who did. I do believe they should be working all year. School shouldn't break for 3 months. Schools that operate year round have produced better results consistantly.

I don't agree with everything the unions do. I think teachers should be merited on their success rate. I don't think bad teachers should be able to obtain tenure after 3 years and then skate by after that, without fear of being fired. These are legitimate problems the union needs to address. I don't think scott walker wants anything more than to relieve the union of it's power, to hurt dems in the polls.

 

[mindphuk]

51k per year salary isn't really that great. You'd like to see teachers paid less? Hell, why pay em at all?

False dichotomy. Eliminating public sector unions does not mean that teachers will be paid less. However it will allow poor performing teachers to be removed and replaced with better ones.

Take this quick example of how collective bargaining has affected the DC school system. Remember Michelle Rhee? She did wonders to improve education levels in the DC school system while she was the commissioner there. That included firing ineffective teachers. The teacher's unions didn't like her .. and they didn't like the Mayor who hired her ... so they campaigned against him and defeated him at the polls. Now, thanks to collective bargaining agreements, DC is having to hire back many of those teachers because of what the union claims is a failure to comply with proper union dismissal procedures. These were ineffective teachers who were fired because of tardiness, unprofessional behavior, "rude and aggressive" demeanor, and so forth. But now they are being forced to be hired back, and D.C. taxpayers will also be required to pay two years in back wages, costing the city approximately $7.5 million. As Michelle Rhee points out, a recent study "concluded the United States would rise to the top among nations in student achievement if the lowest performing 5 percent to 8 percent of teachers were replaced with those who are average." But instead, we are forced to keep lousy teachers in the system, all thanks to unions and their collective bargaining agreements with the government.

 

[redivider]

this idea that the US is a welfare state is getting pretty old.

capitalism relies on pushing and shoving, pushing the competition out of the way, shoving your way to the top. you don't like it, why defend it?

the public sector has to get leaner. the TSA and DEA are completely unnecessary. the Department of Homeland Security is a joke. the IRS could use some looking at, and that beloved defense budget has to get cut. also, the USA cannot afford to be giving billions of dollars to corrupt governments and expect to get results.

these are areas that the government could start trimming immediately and chances are 'liberals' won't form much a fuss.....

but no. let's start going after educators, and the people who represent them.........

 

[UncleBuck]

Except they only work 3/4 of the year and don't pay for any of their Benefits. They actually would make about 105K a year if they worked all year and payed for some of their own benefits like the rest of us do. 105K a year for a teacher seems kind of excessive, especially when you consider that our kids have been doing worse and worse on standardized testing. US SAT scores rank THIRD FROM THE BOTTOM!!!

except they don't get paid 105K a year.

ask my sis in law or bro in law with 45k per year teaching salaries. try seeing how well you can live on that wage close in to downtown LA.

not only do they only make about 45k or so a year, they spend countless hours after they get home from work grading papers, conferencing with parents, making lesson plans, etc

you think they don't work during the summer or other breaks? you would be deluded to think that.

how much do you think the average teacher spends out of pocket each year? i don't have any stats ready offhand, but rest assured, it is a fair amount. just ask any teacher.

so, if these teachers, in your class-warfare-inciting-mind at least, make too much money, what is the solution? pay them less to get better results? make teaching a less attractive profession so we only get the dregs to teach our children?

you are good at (falsely) painting a picture of a problem, why don't you have any solutions? why don't you just come out and say "PAY TEACHERS LESS!"?

in any case, if you were worried about those damn teachers and nurses living high on the horse with their whopping 50K salaries, i have good news: they conceded to every financial demand made of them. all they want to keep is their ability to bargain again next time.

no wonder you voted ron paul. you are bat shit insane and live in a deluded reality.

 

[Coolwhip]

Mindphuk...we can't find enough people to teach in public schools PERIOD....there aren't a bunch of highly qualified, and motivated teachers just sitting on the sidelines ready to go.

All that would happen if you released the lowest performing 5-8% of teachers is class sizes would become even more large and unmanageable. I guess you haven't heard about the nationwide teaching shortage?

Until teacher compensation is increased you aren't going to attract better teachers to public school systems.

 

[mindphuk]

In 2010 7 out of the top 10 political contributors were conservative groups. The other 3 were the unions who almost always support Dems.

In California, the total contributions in the last two years from State & local government employee unions plus Police & fire fighters unions and associations plus Teachers unions is over $6.2 million dollars, which is 15% more than the next biggest donor - construction unions, 73% bigger than the third biggest donor - attorneys, and over 257% bigger than the first real business lobby, telecommunications (I'm skipping Native American gaming as sui generis) - data from MapLight.org website.

 

[mindphuk]

Mindphuk...we can't find enough people to teach in public schools PERIOD....there aren't a bunch of highly qualified, and motivated teachers just sitting on the sidelines ready to go.

All that would happen if you released the lowest performing 5-8% of teachers is class sizes would become even more large and unmanageable. I guess you haven't heard about the nationwide teaching shortage?

Until teacher compensation is increased you aren't going to attract better teachers to public school systems.

I see, so the unemployment rate for teachers is 0%. Good to know.

 

[undertheice]

I got it. Lets make all schools private. Then find a way to make them profitable. Mmmm. That sounds nice. Profit...

just what is it you have against profit? the teachers and administrators are certainly making a profit. the companies that provide textbooks and other school supplies are making a profit. why should the taxpayers be forced to pay for schools that are not only running at a loss, but failing to properly educate our children as well. the drive to profit is a prime motivator toward excellence and excellence is certainly lacking in our public school system. the drive to profit spurs innovation and any innovation should be embraced in a system that is on a constant decline. the status quo clearly is not working. throwing more money at the problem clearly is not working. kowtowing to the demands of public sector unions clearly is not working. maybe the drive to profit is what is needed at the most basic levels of our educational system.

when we demand that a private sector institution provide a certain product, it must do so or fail. it must find a way to succeed or another will take its place. the public sector has no such constraints. a public institution can continue to fail and to run at a loss and we will still fund its failures. we have been watching the steady decline of public education for decades and have falsely concluded that all we needed was to pay more to get more. perhaps it's time we went in a different direction and asked the private sector to lend their expertise to the problem. perhaps the idea that educating our children is a private matter should be revisited.

 

[Coolwhip]

Mike Young...paying teachers based on merit only causes teachers to fight over the good student and encourages teachers to help their students cheat.

And as far as year round school goes, the problem with that is it can only work in higher income districts...in low income districts parents can't afford to take off work for a week every month(or 2 weeks every 2 months, depending on how the schedule is set up) to stay home with their kid(or higher a babysitter, babysitting costs are lower in the summer when all the teenage girls are out of school)

Its just cheaper for the families to have a summer break, there is no way low income families could adapt do year round school without subsidized childcare for the off periods(and we know that ain't gonna happen)

 

[Coolwhip]

I see, so the unemployment rate for teachers is 0%. Good to know.

Unemployment is only high for those without an education. Right now the unemployment rate for those with a bachelor's degree or higher is around 5%.
Unemployment for those with a high school diploma or less is around 14%

I'm sorry, but there just isn't 50,000 qualified, highly motivated, and well trained teachers sitting on the sideline, just waiting to replace the lowest performing teachers.
There just isn't. You can't just fire 8% of the teacher workforce and expect a "good" teacher to climb out of the woodworks to replace every one of them.

And the highly qualified, smart, well trained, motivated teachers who AREN'T teaching right now, are USUALLY pursuing other careers because teacher compensation is too low, that's why they got out that line of work in the first place. They aren't waiting for a spot to open for them, they don't want back in.

 

[Mike Young]

Unemployment is only high for those without an education. Right now the unemployment rate for those with a bachelor's degree or higher is around 5%.
Unemployment for those with a high school diploma or less is around 14%

I'm sorry, but there just isn't 50,000 qualified, highly motivated, and well trained teachers sitting on the sideline, just waiting to replace the lowest performing teachers.
There just isn't. You can't just fire 8% of the teacher workforce and expect a "good" teacher to climb out of the woodworks to replace every one of them.

And the highly qualified, smart, well trained, motivated teachers who AREN'T teaching right now, are USUALLY pursuing other careers because teacher compensation is too low, that's why they got out that line of work in the first place. They aren't waiting for a spot to open for them, they don't want back in.

Took the words out of my... Fingers.

I like michelle rhee, and what she's doing. The fact of the matter is, the figures she's come up with are just that. Figures. Why would anybody wanna be a teacher these days when they could go work for google, or microsoft and make six figures. Not everybody in the IT field makes 6, but I don't know anybody how makes less that 60k. And that low.

 

[Mike Young]

Mike Young...paying teachers based on merit only causes teachers to fight over the good student and encourages teachers to help their students cheat.

And as far as year round school goes, the problem with that is it can only work in higher income districts...in low income districts parents can't afford to take off work for a week every month(or 2 weeks every 2 months, depending on how the schedule is set up) to stay home with their kid(or higher a babysitter, babysitting costs are lower in the summer when all the teenage girls are out of school)

Its just cheaper for the families to have a summer break, there is no way low income families could adapt do year round school without subsidized childcare for the off periods(and we know that ain't gonna happen)

Fight over a good student? I don't even know what to say to that. It sounds like a cop out to me.

And I also feel that your argument against year round school is weak. Those girls who are "off" in the summer can be "off" at the same time as everyone else. If they can manage 3 months in the summer, to say that there's no way families could adapt to that is nonsense.

Alot is lost in the 3 month summer break. But because it would be challenging to adapt to a better system, it should be thrown out? Rediculous.