How Many Libertarians Out There?

[NoDrama]

Look buddy, its pretty simple that all these schools of thought spawn from the same pool.

Democrats blame the rich for all their problems.

Libertarians blame the government for all their problems

Republicans blame the poor, the unions, the minorities, the catholics, the gays, the artists, green energy, and proper nutrition for all of their problems.
(can't help but put a jab there)

I understand you want a smaller government because of the evils it indulges into, I want a smaller private sector due to all the same evils as well.
I am pretty sure that you and I are aggravated about the same aspects of our society. Wealth distribution, privacy rights and intrusion, blah blah blah...however we see a different underlaying cause for these issues.

Also, just as a minor rebuttal, social programs will never exist in the private sector. Never, there is no profit (and I don't think anyone would want there to be), and for every convoluted answer that one could fathom there is a corresponding subsidy that funds it either on the local, state, federal, or global level.

And dude, seriously, you are sounding a bit naive, and I mean that as constructive criticism not a direct insult, so please don't go off on some "he's a hater" rampage. Basing a 21st century superpower government within the original constraints a 223 year old economically driven document is an insult to most of our intellects (I hope). The main thing that all libertarians forget is that the constitution a changing document, designed to meet new challenges and award new abilities to the government and its citizens as time went on. This whole "original" constitution argument is baseless at best. I mean, fuck, why stop there, Im so fucking libertarian that; screw the constitution, I want to strip the government back down, all the way to the Magna Carta. Really man, think about that...In all honesty the US constitution was drafted to create a unified American currency, and to set up a working revenue system, by binding the confederation within an umbrella legal infrastructure, essentially eliminating the states ability to value its own currency. The end goal of our constitution was to create a trustworthy internationally recognized currency that could be used to build confidence that the country could handle taking on debt. Prior to that foreign countries were wary, to say the least, about lending us money, as we has 13 or so different economies at once. The bill of rights was thrown in there to lure in states and delegates who were wary of the economic drivers behind this document. So, nothing is pure man, like I said, libertarianism, like idealism is just over analyzing a day dream. It bears no actual use or bearing. There are many circumstances in which individual rights have to be valued less that the greater good, more than the specifics mentioned. A country needs mechanisms in place in order to execute properly in such circumstances. Life isn't fair. Life isn't fair for a homeless person, a dying child, a middle class family, a politician, a pot farmer, and a millionaire alike, just ask them. Instead of trying to change the outside circumstances to suit how life isn't fair to you at the hands of the US government, just shut the fuck up and deal with it. Things take care of themselves, however you can't always expect it to happen with in your specified time frame. It's all about perspective, look back at any one single 3 year period within this century for the US and anyone can list a massive amount of inequality, violence, pain, sacrifice, lack of rights, so on and so forth. Step back and look at the century as a whole, and many will say it was probably the most important and successful time period any one civilization has seen since man made fire. All thanks to a strong federal government as well as a strong and willing work force that knew when it was best for it to shut the fuck up and drudge on instead of whining. They didn't sit around and cry about debts, they paid the shit off by paying their taxes, so they can eventually move on to the next thing.

If things are so bad for you that paying you taxes is making you go broke, than you should probably put down th J and fucking manage your money properly.

sorry about the tone of this post, the east coast in me is coming out a bit...You can take the man out of...

The constitution is an ever evolving work eh? Lets see, its been changed what, all of 17 times in 235 years. I think the tax law changes approximately 250 times a year. It awards no one or any government anything, it is there to tell government what very limited things it CAN do, of course its been so perverted by the power monger politicians that I doubt if its even taught in school anymore.

US Constitution setup a Currency? Can you tell me where in the US Constitution it defines what a Dollar is? Since the Dollar is the US Currency it must be defined right? Perhaps you thought Bretton Woods was part of our founding fathers heritage? Are you sure you know what is written there? The only time the dollar is mentioned is in section 1, article 9 clause 1, and also in the 7th amendment. Neither define what a dollar is. It wasn't until 1792 that the United States Dollar was definedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar#cite_note-Act_1792-3 as a unit of weight equaling 371 4/16th grains (24.057 grams) of pure silver. Somewhat difficult to build an empire of debt based on a debtless money system. Try 1913 and the creation of the Federal Reserve and creation of a currency of fiat money to adhere your conspiracy theory, not the founding documents of this great country.

There are many circumstances in which individual rights have to be valued less that the greater good? That's total anathema to what this country is based upon. It should be that individual rights trump all.




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[Hudsonvalley82]

I understand the concept, I just don't agree with you analysis of it what so ever. Small government has never existed. Its not real. It can't be. Especially in a country with such a large economic global role. Small governments are for small economies, and small populations. Big government is here to stay buddy, it never gets small, cuz we never do.

So, either continue trying to work out the blueprints on something that will never be built, oooorrrrr take a long hard look at the current situation, the structures, the players, the reality of what can be done and what can't be done, and act accordingly.

Seriously, if there is a fire in a city, and it starts to spread, is the answer less firetrucks?? That is why you see neocon after neocon (yes I see libertarianism as a perverted off shoot of neocon) speak of small government to get elected and when faced with the real situations, says shit, small government just ain't the answer to this at all. Take the following year for example. I will relish every time I hear Boehner try to reason with his base that, things in real life aren't like the small government dreams they all had.

As long as the private sector grows, we need the government to grow as a counter weight. One must not out pace the other. Just like there is communism on one side of the spectrum, there is aristocracy on the other. Too large of a government, you get communism, too small you get aristocracy. The scale in which the size of the government is measured is its private sector. You can have the same medium sized government for both a small and a large economy, and you will find that the gov't is too large for the small economy and small for the large economy.

The libertarian argument works only in unrealistic contexts that have never been known to exist in human or socio-political behavior. All this thinking and effort within this thread could have been spent actually trying to solve something instead of stoking benign fires in the hopes of having other people reinforce your own shaky political outlook driven by the fear of debt or something.

Debt is a problem that can be solved, not a reason to panic.

Perhaps one day you will be so lucky as to fall into bad circumstances and be the beneficiary of these "pork barrel" social programs as I had happen to me 4 years ago. Perhaps you will be so grateful that other people in this country have more compassion for you than you do for them. Perhaps you will learn first hand how helping out the less fortunate not only makes for good morality, but also good economic sense. Perhaps you will see that my relatives died in war not so we can pay less taxes, not so we can be without national debt, and not so that we can have a small government, but died in battle so that we can appreciate that helping our fellow citizen, our fellow human, is both the obligation of a population and a government, regardless of the price tag. That is the virtue in which you can measure a country.

If our country fails due to its compassion for its fellow citizen than so be it.

Take 75% of my income. Feed and shelter kids and families. Help the elderly enjoy one more day with their family, take an abused wife and kids and give them a safe place to sleep tonight...and you know what, tell the politicians to spend some on themselves, cuz I know that is how things work in the real world. That is probably better than what I was going to do with it anyway. It's just money. When we die, this money talk will all seem very foolish.

You dont seem to understand the concept. If I work for my paycheck the government gets a cut. If I work harder the government gets a larger cut. If I work even harder... Well you guessed it... The percentage of my check that I get goes down.

I probably havent paid federal taxes in 5 years because I havent made enough to qualify to pay for it.

But you keep missing the other point I am trying to make. THE GOVERNMENT IS SPENDING FAR MORE THAN MY TAXES COVER!!! The spending is completely fucking out of control. The government is currently borrowing 42 cents on the dollar to pay for its programs. That means that everyone would have to have a 40% tax increase to be able to cover just the current costs of what the government is spending...

The government has spent us 13 trillion dollars in real debt and hundreds of trillions of dollars in promised debt into the toilet. 13 trillion dollars is 13 THOUSAND BILLION DOLLARS... Overspent, above all of the taxes we have paid into the system. It is more than the entire production of the united states for a year.

I want smaller government because we are beyond broke. There is nothing left but empty promises. Social Security is looted, 5-10 of the states are likely going to have to declare bankrupcy if it is made possible. There is no money left to spend. And even if you confiscated all of the money from the wealthy it would not begin to cover all of the costs that have been racked up.

People keep missing the point. There is not going to be poor houses, there are going to be soup kitchens and tent cities because the government is destroying the value of the dollar and spending our kids future faster than anyone could possibly keep up the payments.

But hey, when it collapses we will all be equally miserable. Well, except for the rich because they will stay above it all as always.

You just dont seem to get it and you keep buying into what the government is selling you which is class warfare. They have it, you want it, we are going to give it to ya!!!

Fucking pathetic...

One last thing. PLEASE BREAK UP YOUR POSTS INTO PARAGRAPHS!!!

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

A) Yes, that is why we have a constitution and not the articles of confederation. Do some more reading on Washington and Adams, and see why exactly the constitution was drafted. Of course you can't just say that a dollar is worth whatever, however you can bind 13 economies together as one government, pitch that to France and Germany for some much needed loans to keep the United States a country another year longer, and also to establish a military that was first used to quell the angry overtaxed population. The beginning of this country was far from the golden years bud. Yeah, gold and silver standard bs. If you really want to end the world, go back to it. The reason we are the most powerful country in the world is directly tied to its abolition. If we were on the gold standard still, we'd all be speaking German cuz we couldn't cut the financial mustard to build the best military the world has ever seen.

B) Individual rights trump nothing, your a dreamer. A lot of things should be a certain way, but guess what? they are not. Good example: Some dude next door shouldn't have the individual right to dump carcinogens in my water supply. Individual rights exist within the parameters of majority rules correct? So your argument is only right in a limited number of rare circumstances, and is a poor (at best) rule of thumb to live by.

The constitution is an ever evolving work eh? Lets see, its been changed what, all of 17 times in 235 years. I think the tax law changes approximately 250 times a year. It awards no one or any government anything, it is there to tell government what very limited things it CAN do, of course its been so perverted by the power monger politicians that I doubt if its even taught in school anymore.

US Constitution setup a Currency? Can you tell me where in the US Constitution it defines what a Dollar is? Since the Dollar is the US Currency it must be defined right? Perhaps you thought Bretton Woods was part of our founding fathers heritage? Are you sure you know what is written there? The only time the dollar is mentioned is in section 1, article 9 clause 1, and also in the 7th amendment. Neither define what a dollar is. It wasn't until 1792 that the United States Dollar was defined as a unit of weight equaling 371 4/16th grains (24.057 grams) of pure silver. Somewhat difficult to build an empire of debt based on a debtless money system. Try 1913 and the creation of the Federal Reserve and creation of a currency of fiat money to adhere your conspiracy theory, not the founding documents of this great country.

There are many circumstances in which individual rights have to be valued less that the greater good? That's total anathema to what this country is based upon. It should be that individual rights trump all.




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[Hudsonvalley82]

And lets not forget that the constitution is up to interpretation regarding what is not address or what is vaguely addressed.

 

[UncleBuck]

A) Yes, that is why we have a constitution and not the articles of confederation. Do some more reading on Washington and Adams, and see why exactly the constitution was drafted. Of course you can't just say that a dollar is worth whatever, however you can bind 13 economies together as one government, pitch that to France and Germany for some much needed loans to keep the United States a country another year longer, and also to establish a military that was first used to quell the angry overtaxed population. The beginning of this country was far from the golden years bud. Yeah, gold and silver standard bs. If you really want to end the world, go back to it. The reason we are the most powerful country in the world is directly tied to its abolition. If we were on the gold standard still, we'd all be speaking German cuz we couldn't cut the financial mustard to build the best military the world has ever seen.

B) Individual rights trump nothing, your a dreamer. A lot of things should be a certain way, but guess what? they are not. Good example: Some dude next door shouldn't have the individual right to dump carcinogens in my water supply. Individual rights exist within the parameters of majority rules correct? So your argument is only right in a limited number of rare circumstances, and is a poor (at best) rule of thumb to live by.

wow, this guy rocks.

please post often.

 

[Parker]

A) Yes, that is why we have a constitution and not the articles of confederation. Do some more reading on Washington and Adams, and see why exactly the constitution was drafted. Of course you can't just say that a dollar is worth whatever, however you can bind 13 economies together as one government, pitch that to France and Germany for some much needed loans to keep the United States a country another year longer, and also to establish a military that was first used to quell the angry overtaxed population. The beginning of this country was far from the golden years bud. Yeah, gold and silver standard bs. If you really want to end the world, go back to it. The reason we are the most powerful country in the world is directly tied to its abolition. If we were on the gold standard still, we'd all be speaking German cuz we couldn't cut the financial mustard to build the best military the world has ever seen.

LMAO Where did you dream this up? Abolition of the gold standard has made us the most powerful country. I can't wait to see proof of this. How do you figure we'd be speaking German?

B) Individual rights trump nothing, your a dreamer. A lot of things should be a certain way, but guess what? they are not. Good example: Some dude next door shouldn't have the individual right to dump carcinogens in my water supply. Individual rights exist within the parameters of majority rules correct? So your argument is only right in a limited number of rare circumstances, and is a poor (at best) rule of thumb to live by.

lol You don't know what encompasses individual rights. The reason the neighbor cannot pollute is because it infringes on your property rights. Individual rights do not exist within the parameters of majority rules. Quite the opposite. No one can "give" you rights, only take them away. The majority rule can take away rights

Since when is not trampling others rights while living your life a poor rule to live by?

 

[Parker]

Look buddy, its pretty simple that all these schools of thought spawn from the same pool.

Democrats blame the rich for all their problems.

Libertarians blame the government for all their problems

Republicans blame the poor, the unions, the minorities, the catholics, the gays, the artists, green energy, and proper nutrition for all of their problems.
(can't help but put a jab there)

I understand you want a smaller government because of the evils it indulges into, I want a smaller private sector due to all the same evils as well.
I am pretty sure that you and I are aggravated about the same aspects of our society. Wealth distribution, privacy rights and intrusion, blah blah blah...however we see a different underlaying cause for these issues.

Most of this post is based on nothing factual. Just silly claims. I bolded the one part i wanted to comment on.
Too many people, including this poster, do not understand how the government manipulates the economy and destroys the free market. They put into place laws squelching competition and the uninformed exclaim capitalism (the private sector), is evil. All the while ignoring the non free market laws Congress puts into place that allows this NOW non free market industry to grow.

How does one forget the main reason we are in this horrible economic mess which was caused by the government manipulating the free market in the housing industry?

 

[Parker]

And lets not forget that the constitution is up to interpretation regarding what is not address or what is vaguely addressed.

this was addressed by the founders but ignored by the modern day conmen in Congress.
Jefferson said - “On every question of construction [of the Constitution] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or intended against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed.”

Lets be honest about Jefferson. He wasn't perfect and didn't 100 percent follow the Constitution. All the more reason to understand why we are a Nation of Laws (Property Rights) and not a Nation of Men (Mob Rule).

 

[NLXSK1]

I argue for a smaller federal government and you talk about fire trucks?

You do realize that the police and fire departments are LOCAL government right?

I am advocating for a smaller Federal government.

So, take the time to read my posts, comprehend them and then respond accordingly...

The fact that you think the government can spend 75% of your income more intelligently than you can is fucking hilarious. Please, do me a favor. Send 75% of your check to the IRS with a note to keep the extra. They will ya know... You can voluntarily send in any amount of money you want to help out the government.

I just dont want the government confiscating my money and spending it on what they want.

Some debt can be overcome... I dont think you comprehend the corruption and malfeasence of your government. And the sad part of it is when you sheep finally realize how fucked you are the government is going to collapse and there will not be anyone to blame but you in your complacency and trust in a government that is no longer for the people.

 

[NoDrama]

The reason we are the most powerful country in the world is directly tied to its abolition. If we were on the gold standard still, we'd all be speaking German cuz we couldn't cut the financial mustard to build the best military the world has ever seen.

Well you have definitely shown your ignorance, perhaps you did not know that the USA has been the most powerful country since the end of WW1, and the fact that we were on the GOLD STANDARD until March , 1971. Perhaps you also did not know that WW1 ended November of 1918. Guess what, we became even more powerful all the while on a gold backed standard. Amazing how facts can make one look like an ignoramus isn't it?

B) Individual rights trump nothing, your a dreamer. A lot of things should be a certain way, but guess what? they are not. Good example: Some dude next door shouldn't have the individual right to dump carcinogens in my water supply. Individual rights exist within the parameters of majority rules correct? So your argument is only right in a limited number of rare circumstances, and is a poor (at best) rule of thumb to live by.

I may be a dreamer, but i'm not the only one. Dumping carcinogens in your neighbors water supply is a violation of the neighbors rights. No one ever said that the individual should be allowed to do whatever he pleases, we just say that as long as you aren't causing harm or damage to someone else or their property then all is ok. Perhaps you do not understand this idea and are of the opinion that mankind is nothing more than a animal with nothing on their mind but their own selfish thoughts and actions. Perhaps you see yourself as this uncaring animal and know that deep down you would never help the poor or indignant if you weren't forced by penalty of imprisonment to give up what is 100% yours. In your world it is quite alright if the majority ruled that all babies were to be put to death, because in your world the majority rules, even if it means stomping all over someone elses liberties and life. What you advocate is slavery and fiefdoms.

 

[NLXSK1]

Perhaps you do not understand this idea and are of the opinion that mankind is nothing more than a animal with nothing on their mind but their own selfish thoughts and actions.

Well, until you are voted into political office and you become generous and giving of other peoples money...

 

[NoDrama]

wow, this guy rocks.

please post often.

I wouldn't say he rocks, but I do hope he continues to post here, makes for good discussion and perhaps we can convince him of the truth.

 

[NoDrama]

Well, until you are voted into political office and you become generous and giving of other peoples money...

It is amazingly easy to spend someone elses money.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

its not your money...its your dues that you owe to your nation for the quality of life and wealth that you enjoy.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

a duh:

The gold standard broke down during the 1930s as countries engaged in competitive devaluations. The gold standard worked fairly well from the 1870s until the start of World War I. During the war the government financed military expenses by printing money resulting in inflation, and price levels were high everywhere by the end of the war. Then, in an effort to encourage exports and domestic employment, countries started regularly devaluing their currencies. People lost confidence in the system and started to demand gold for their currency putting pressure on countries' gold reserves, and forcing them to suspend gold convertibility and by World War II, the gold standard was over.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_the_gold_standard_collapse#ixzz19cHNRGyu​

Well you have definitely shown your ignorance, perhaps you did not know that the USA has been the most powerful country since the end of WW1, and the fact that we were on the GOLD STANDARD until March , 1971. Perhaps you also did not know that WW1 ended November of 1918. Guess what, we became even more powerful all the while on a gold backed standard. Amazing how facts can make one look like an ignoramus isn't it?



I may be a dreamer, but i'm not the only one. Dumping carcinogens in your neighbors water supply is a violation of the neighbors rights. No one ever said that the individual should be allowed to do whatever he pleases, we just say that as long as you aren't causing harm or damage to someone else or their property then all is ok. Perhaps you do not understand this idea and are of the opinion that mankind is nothing more than a animal with nothing on their mind but their own selfish thoughts and actions. Perhaps you see yourself as this uncaring animal and know that deep down you would never help the poor or indignant if you weren't forced by penalty of imprisonment to give up what is 100% yours. In your world it is quite alright if the majority ruled that all babies were to be put to death, because in your world the majority rules, even if it means stomping all over someone elses liberties and life. What you advocate is slavery and fiefdoms.

 

[NLXSK1]

its not your money

LOL!!! If it is not my money then why should I work for it? Seems kinda silly eh?

 

[NLXSK1]

I would like to add that if it is not my money I am working for... Then I am a slave to the government. Which is true, most people just dont realize it yet.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Bingo buddy, actually I would say that the government is even a slave to a larger capitalist system, in which no one owns their own money. Seems to me that most peoples money belong to bank loans and credit cards, not the government. So your working for a bank, owning things you shouldn't own and living a quality of life that none of us should enjoy, for what the average american makes, none of us should own property let alone a house or several cars, or an expensive set of golf clubs. Those don't sound like slaves to governments to me, they sound like slaves to a heightened sense of greed and vision of a happy life written by marketing specialists and boardrooms. Our retirements are tied up in 401k, in the banks, our homes are tied by in mortgages in the banks, our educations are tied up in the student loans from the banks, our cars, TV's, appliances, trust funds, everything. The government and its problems are just a symptom of a much larger problem that must be addressed prior to solving anything else government-wise. Money controls all, and it controls us, not the government. That is why we make no forward progress in this discussion, as we are attacking a symptom, not the germ.

Regarding the firetrucks, that was a literary analogy, not an actual example. I was basically stating that throwing less at an urgent problem usually doesn't make matters better.

I would like to add that if it is not my money I am working for... Then I am a slave to the government. Which is true, most people just dont realize it yet.

 

[mrboots]

its not your money...its your dues that you owe to your nation for the quality of life and wealth that you enjoy.

You can tell when people get a big refund every year instead of a bill when they say things like this.

 

[beardo]

Bingo buddy, actually I would say that the government is even a slave to a larger capitalist system, in which no one owns their own money. Seems to me that most peoples money belong to bank loans and credit cards, not the government. So your working for a bank, owning things you shouldn't own and living a quality of life that none of us should enjoy, for what the average american makes, none of us should own property let alone a house or several cars, or an expensive set of golf clubs. Those don't sound like slaves to governments to me, they sound like slaves to a heightened sense of greed and vision of a happy life written by marketing specialists and boardrooms. Our retirements are tied up in 401k, in the banks, our homes are tied by in mortgages in the banks, our educations are tied up in the student loans from the banks, our cars, TV's, appliances, trust funds, everything. The government and its problems are just a symptom of a much larger problem that must be addressed prior to solving anything else government-wise. Money controls all, and it controls us, not the government. That is why we make no forward progress in this discussion, as we are attacking a symptom, not the germ.

Regarding the firetrucks, that was a literary analogy, not an actual example. I was basically stating that throwing less at an urgent problem usually doesn't make matters better.

And why is a gold standard worse that enslavement by debt ? So do you believe the majority of politicians are just representing the banks intrersts? Do you believe that the legal system is enforcing the banks rules and protecting their intrests ? What about the military who are they fighting for?