How Many Libertarians Out There?
- Thread starter Carthoris
- Start date
There isn't one with Democrats. It would play out almost exactly the same way with different topics. That is why I think Libertarians are the only ones who are even half close to the reality of what human existence is supposed to be like.
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
Your whole premise assumes that they stay working at McDonalds forever...
Having a work ethic means you find any job and then you continue looking for better jobs.
hazorazo
New Member
What do you think happens with a person's debt when they work at McDonald's for whatever amount of time? It does not get paid, and then goes into collections, because they are making enough for rent and food. Before collections, you get hit with all of that interest. And, yes, I know, more Americans should have saved for a rainy day, but we all know that even the people who were maximizing their 401K or company retirement during that time took a HUGE hit, because their INVESTMENTS lost A TON of value. So, even the people who saved are hurting right now, because their savings was driven into the pockets of a few filthy rich people.
And having a work ethic does not mean you work constantly all the time. It means that you get the work done when it needs to be done or before. Nothing more. I have a great work ethic, I work in my yard, work on my grow room, and I work at work. But if I suddenly quit work, because I do not like it, and continue to stay busy at home with hobbies and projects, does that mean I have lost my work ethic? Or does it just mean that I am no longer working for the employer, but continue to work for myself?
You seem to be stuck in the idea that unless you get PAID for something, it is not work. Do you own a home? Ever done yardwork? Ever decided to paint the house? Ever decided to use a sod cutter to create artistic lines in your lawn, and then landscape fabric the area you then fill with bark. Ever prune your fruit trees? Grow vegetables in your garden? All of these are work, but I do not get paid for it..........but for you having a work ethic means finding a shitty job and then continuing to look for better jobs.
By the way, in your example, it seems like the people you do not like are people on welfare and unemployment. Welfare is no picnic from what I understand. And to qualify for full unemployment, you had to be working full time, for the past 18 months continually, and make over 60-70K a year. I hardly think that person was ready to be living off of 20K a year and make ends meet. Now, what you are telling me is that YOU, if you were in that position, would take a 1600 dollar a month job at McDonald's, instead of the 2400 dollars a month unemployment that YOU paid into to protect you? So your family will be able to thank you for the smaller check every week. They will have you to thank for less time spent as a family, because you just went from top of the totem pole to the bottom, so now you work weekends. And your family can thank you that while you feel good about your so-called work ethic, you now have less time to look for that 60-70K position you used to work......and less time to interview the 3 interviews it takes to get that high paying job........
All I am gonna say is C'MON, MAN!?!
What about harvest time?
hazorazo
New Member
We are not dealing with the past. I am sure Abe Lincoln was a much different Republican, but we are dealing with TODAY's Republicans. LOL The example above from Uncle Buck showed how little they have in common. Very good illustration.
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
First off we are talking about working at McDonalds or being unemployed. One option brings in little money, the other option brings in no money. I dont understand your logic here.
As far as work ethic, it means you do what it takes to get the job done. If you are unemployed you find a new job. People who lay around getting unemployment and not looking for a job do not have a good work ethic. That means you are willing to take taxpayer funded welfare while you fuck off...
When you take unemployment you agree to actively look for work. I personally know of people who are not doing that right now. And from conversations I have had it seems like everyone knows 1 or 2 people that are skating on unemployment. And if you take the full 2 years unemployment benefits you will have burned up more money than you paid into the system FOR LIFE...
So, since you want to analyze me, let me analyze you...
You had a great paying job but got laid off so fuck the government and the taxpayers you are gonna take a 2 year subsidized vacation.
I had a job. I quit it back in September. The reason I quit it is that I didnt make enough money. I am starting several businesses of my own that I know will bring in probably twice as much income as my other employment. Having a good work ethic does not mean that you have to go find a paying job, it means that you are driven to provide for yourself and your family (through legal means).
3 interviews to get a high paying job? If that is all it takes why are you whining so much?
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
So, are you telling me that the Democratic party platform of bigger government and more benefits is more closely aligned with the libertarian party now than the Republicans??? Seriously?
Hudsonvalley82
Well-Known Member
Lets be serious about this. Imagination worlds are fun, but bear no fruit. Libertarianism is an ideal, not a governing practice. If you ask 100 people if they would like to live their life and be undisturbed, or not, then you would get 100 "yup, I prefer undisturbed". So how come we don't have such a society? It's pretty simple from where I'm sitting. Because, most practical, forward thinking people realize that libertarian based society would be an anarchist mess. You want a libertarian, no government, no police, no big brother society, go to central Africa. Thats what happens without a strong governing force. Libertarianism is based off the assumption that each individual knows more than everyone else. Well guess what? We're all morons. As a society we couldn't help ourselves out of a paper bag. We need government there for schools, police, military, and yes, healthcare - ask anyone with medicare, we need government to defend our rights, up hold judicial decisions and the whole nine yards. Yes, it is a pain in the ass, but much less of a pain than not having these things. It's easy to bitch about everything and imagine how much better you can manage things, but in reality it is not the truth. Yes, taxes are high, yes, government is a mess, but saying "i dont need these things, so get rid of them" is nonsense. What that thinking does is separate you from the problem. It prevents you from dealing with problems that affect our entire nation, and directly or indirectly affect you. You went to school, your rights are defended, your property value is inflated by the local governments regulations and code, your life is defending from enemies, you have a social security network, a welfare system should your life go to shit, medicare, god forbid something terrible happens to you. Freedom has never existed on earth, and everyone who wastes their time chasing it usually creates a worse off situation than what we have. People who realize these realities make the grown up decision and set up a government system that best trades fiscal and personal freedom for the most beneficial amount of government return available. Jefferson quotes are all well and good, but they are far from doctrine, largely idealistic, and far from anything that people should mistake as a governing principle. You want to actually learn about life and governments, and societies, read The Prince. That is the way society has, is, and will always be.
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
I read the first couple sentences of this and stopped because it is just flat out wrong.
Anarchists want no government. Libertarians want limited government.
The federal government has very few functions as defined by the constitution. It has used the commerce clause (wrongly IMO) to get into every part of our lives.
The federal government should handle treaties, the military, etc. But it should not be running social security (a ponzi scheme), medicaide (wealth redistribution) or most other things it is into. Most of that should be handled by the states and it says that in the constitution. Remember, the constitution was written to LIMIT the power of government.
medicineman
New Member
You stopped reading because your limited brain function would not enter into the common sense arena. Libertarianism is for rich fools that really don't know what the hell they are thinking. To do away with all the social programs that they would like, would be akin to destroying millions of lives, lives they must in their infinite "wisdom" deem to be not worthy of sustaining. To allow you to continue to build your obscene wealth would by process of elimination, need to remove a few hundred lives, lives of "people' that you don't know and obviously don't give one fuck about. There is only so much money, so by hoarding it, you obviously deny access to others. I'm so damned tired of this bullshit about getting to keep what "you've" earned. Just because you recieve an obscene amount of money for your "services" does not make you exempt from social responsibilities. The fact that the wealthy have had a free ride on the workers backs for centuries does not make it right or justified. Regardless of what your brain cells stir around in that empty of all feeling head, you are not entitled to an obscene amounty for your "services while some serf works just as hard for peanuts. This is the fallacy of libertarianism, some people are just better than others because of what they "earn". Bullshit.
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
I dont have a ton of money and I dont charge large fees for my services. You must be talking to someone else.
Libertarianism is the acknowledgement that to truly be free you have to be responsible for yourself and not expect government to provide happiness for you.
That means the social programs you talk about exist, but not run by the government.
The federal government was nowhere near the size it is now nor did it confiscate anywhere near as much wealth and people survived and thrived. You act like the government has had social security and welfare since the founding of the country... LOL!!
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
you must not be acquainted with 'worthington's law'
[video=youtube;aF8wLg5Asgo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF8wLg5Asgo[/video]
medicineman
New Member
Well, it's not my prophesy, but the world does work that way, at least that is what libertarians would have us believe. Yeah, in the olden days, people were judged by their intellectual or artistic achievements, in todays world, if you aint got the cash, STFU.you must not be acquainted with 'worthington's law'
[video=youtube;aF8wLg5Asgo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF8wLg5Asgo[/video]
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
you don't smoke anymore i guess, but you should really consider lighting up a J and watching some mr show.
and in reference to what i quoted, i think it has always been that way. at least that is what cohan leads me to believe...
[video=youtube;FheZAB42gT4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FheZAB42gT4[/video]
Anyone notice MedicineMan has like 50 posts about how he hates Libertarians. I'm beginning to think he is either a welfare case, or his old lady ran off with a Libertarian. MedicineMan, what would your ideal form of government be? You sound like a firm supporter of communism.
I don't think most Libertarians really want to get rid of the entire shibang. Look at the government/country as a house. It has termites, it has roaches, the carpet is moldy, drywall has holes. You don't bulldoze the house and start over or try to fix everything at once, you fix one issue at a time. You don't just live in the house and continue to make it worse by ignoring the problems and beating a few new holes in the wall.
Step one: Contraction military reach. Do we really give two shits what happens in Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany, Yugoslavia, or Mars? Do any of us really care if Korea rejoins? Not really. Our military budget is massive, and we don't need to be supplying anyone in the world. This isn't going to affect the people in our country at all. We have almost half a million troops in foreign countries.
Step two: Tax everyone. More taxes you say? Everyone should pay taxes, or no one. Phase out Earned Income Tax Credits. Phase out tax benefits for being married, having children, ect. This will create a huge surplus, and then taxes can be lowered for everyone.
Step three: Food stamps phased out. Replacing food stamps with program to give them actual food. A big box of cheese, rice, noodles, ect. Cheap foods that are nutritionally acceptable. It is not acceptable to eat lobster, steak, doritos, and drink soda at the cost of tax payers. The goal of food stamps is to feed you while you are in a rough patch, not feed you forever at high levels. The cost of
Step four: Being stupid is not a disability. Disability is for those who are physically incapable of working. As it is, people are getting disability because they are assholes. Being an asshole isn't a disability. What did assholes (people with ADD and everything like that) do before it was a disability?
Step five: Fix medical costs. The problem is insurance is it costs so much. Why? BS, that's why. Go to the emergency room, deal with 20 people to get stitches or antibiotics. It would be a pretty simple feat to change the rules and allow nurses to give you antibiotics or stitch up your cut. Small public 24 hr hospitals could take 99% of the ER visits. How much does it really cost to talk to a nurse for 5 minutes when you have the flu? It costs about $100 to talk to a doctor normally at an office. Why is it 5k to go to the ER for the flu? Why do poor people choose to go to the ER instead of the doctor? Why do you have to wait 3 hours and go sit in a room for a few more before you talk to anyone about the issue? Why couldn't the triage nurse just take care of it, obviously she is already making decisions about how bad your health issue is. I am pretty sure with a weeks training you could teach someone to take care of flus and minor cuts.
Doing those 5 things would cut down a lot on our expenses as a country. We could easily have a surplus, and begin paying down the deficit. Then once it is down, we can lower taxes for everyone.
I don't think most Libertarians really want to get rid of the entire shibang. Look at the government/country as a house. It has termites, it has roaches, the carpet is moldy, drywall has holes. You don't bulldoze the house and start over or try to fix everything at once, you fix one issue at a time. You don't just live in the house and continue to make it worse by ignoring the problems and beating a few new holes in the wall.
Step one: Contraction military reach. Do we really give two shits what happens in Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany, Yugoslavia, or Mars? Do any of us really care if Korea rejoins? Not really. Our military budget is massive, and we don't need to be supplying anyone in the world. This isn't going to affect the people in our country at all. We have almost half a million troops in foreign countries.
Step two: Tax everyone. More taxes you say? Everyone should pay taxes, or no one. Phase out Earned Income Tax Credits. Phase out tax benefits for being married, having children, ect. This will create a huge surplus, and then taxes can be lowered for everyone.
Step three: Food stamps phased out. Replacing food stamps with program to give them actual food. A big box of cheese, rice, noodles, ect. Cheap foods that are nutritionally acceptable. It is not acceptable to eat lobster, steak, doritos, and drink soda at the cost of tax payers. The goal of food stamps is to feed you while you are in a rough patch, not feed you forever at high levels. The cost of
Step four: Being stupid is not a disability. Disability is for those who are physically incapable of working. As it is, people are getting disability because they are assholes. Being an asshole isn't a disability. What did assholes (people with ADD and everything like that) do before it was a disability?
Step five: Fix medical costs. The problem is insurance is it costs so much. Why? BS, that's why. Go to the emergency room, deal with 20 people to get stitches or antibiotics. It would be a pretty simple feat to change the rules and allow nurses to give you antibiotics or stitch up your cut. Small public 24 hr hospitals could take 99% of the ER visits. How much does it really cost to talk to a nurse for 5 minutes when you have the flu? It costs about $100 to talk to a doctor normally at an office. Why is it 5k to go to the ER for the flu? Why do poor people choose to go to the ER instead of the doctor? Why do you have to wait 3 hours and go sit in a room for a few more before you talk to anyone about the issue? Why couldn't the triage nurse just take care of it, obviously she is already making decisions about how bad your health issue is. I am pretty sure with a weeks training you could teach someone to take care of flus and minor cuts.
Doing those 5 things would cut down a lot on our expenses as a country. We could easily have a surplus, and begin paying down the deficit. Then once it is down, we can lower taxes for everyone.
Hudsonvalley82
Well-Known Member
Look buddy, its pretty simple that all these schools of thought spawn from the same pool.
Democrats blame the rich for all their problems.
Libertarians blame the government for all their problems
Republicans blame the poor, the unions, the minorities, the catholics, the gays, the artists, green energy, and proper nutrition for all of their problems.
(can't help but put a jab there)
I understand you want a smaller government because of the evils it indulges into, I want a smaller private sector due to all the same evils as well.
I am pretty sure that you and I are aggravated about the same aspects of our society. Wealth distribution, privacy rights and intrusion, blah blah blah...however we see a different underlaying cause for these issues.
Also, just as a minor rebuttal, social programs will never exist in the private sector. Never, there is no profit (and I don't think anyone would want there to be), and for every convoluted answer that one could fathom there is a corresponding subsidy that funds it either on the local, state, federal, or global level.
And dude, seriously, you are sounding a bit naive, and I mean that as constructive criticism not a direct insult, so please don't go off on some "he's a hater" rampage. Basing a 21st century superpower government within the original constraints a 223 year old economically driven document is an insult to most of our intellects (I hope). The main thing that all libertarians forget is that the constitution a changing document, designed to meet new challenges and award new abilities to the government and its citizens as time went on. This whole "original" constitution argument is baseless at best. I mean, fuck, why stop there, Im so fucking libertarian that; screw the constitution, I want to strip the government back down, all the way to the Magna Carta. Really man, think about that...In all honesty the US constitution was drafted to create a unified American currency, and to set up a working revenue system, by binding the confederation within an umbrella legal infrastructure, essentially eliminating the states ability to value its own currency. The end goal of our constitution was to create a trustworthy internationally recognized currency that could be used to build confidence that the country could handle taking on debt. Prior to that foreign countries were wary, to say the least, about lending us money, as we has 13 or so different economies at once. The bill of rights was thrown in there to lure in states and delegates who were wary of the economic drivers behind this document. So, nothing is pure man, like I said, libertarianism, like idealism is just over analyzing a day dream. It bears no actual use or bearing. There are many circumstances in which individual rights have to be valued less that the greater good, more than the specifics mentioned. A country needs mechanisms in place in order to execute properly in such circumstances. Life isn't fair. Life isn't fair for a homeless person, a dying child, a middle class family, a politician, a pot farmer, and a millionaire alike, just ask them. Instead of trying to change the outside circumstances to suit how life isn't fair to you at the hands of the US government, just shut the fuck up and deal with it. Things take care of themselves, however you can't always expect it to happen with in your specified time frame. It's all about perspective, look back at any one single 3 year period within this century for the US and anyone can list a massive amount of inequality, violence, pain, sacrifice, lack of rights, so on and so forth. Step back and look at the century as a whole, and many will say it was probably the most important and successful time period any one civilization has seen since man made fire. All thanks to a strong federal government as well as a strong and willing work force that knew when it was best for it to shut the fuck up and drudge on instead of whining. They didn't sit around and cry about debts, they paid the shit off by paying their taxes, so they can eventually move on to the next thing.
If things are so bad for you that paying you taxes is making you go broke, than you should probably put down th J and fucking manage your money properly.
sorry about the tone of this post, the east coast in me is coming out a bit...You can take the man out of...
Democrats blame the rich for all their problems.
Libertarians blame the government for all their problems
Republicans blame the poor, the unions, the minorities, the catholics, the gays, the artists, green energy, and proper nutrition for all of their problems.
(can't help but put a jab there)
I understand you want a smaller government because of the evils it indulges into, I want a smaller private sector due to all the same evils as well.
I am pretty sure that you and I are aggravated about the same aspects of our society. Wealth distribution, privacy rights and intrusion, blah blah blah...however we see a different underlaying cause for these issues.
Also, just as a minor rebuttal, social programs will never exist in the private sector. Never, there is no profit (and I don't think anyone would want there to be), and for every convoluted answer that one could fathom there is a corresponding subsidy that funds it either on the local, state, federal, or global level.
And dude, seriously, you are sounding a bit naive, and I mean that as constructive criticism not a direct insult, so please don't go off on some "he's a hater" rampage. Basing a 21st century superpower government within the original constraints a 223 year old economically driven document is an insult to most of our intellects (I hope). The main thing that all libertarians forget is that the constitution a changing document, designed to meet new challenges and award new abilities to the government and its citizens as time went on. This whole "original" constitution argument is baseless at best. I mean, fuck, why stop there, Im so fucking libertarian that; screw the constitution, I want to strip the government back down, all the way to the Magna Carta. Really man, think about that...In all honesty the US constitution was drafted to create a unified American currency, and to set up a working revenue system, by binding the confederation within an umbrella legal infrastructure, essentially eliminating the states ability to value its own currency. The end goal of our constitution was to create a trustworthy internationally recognized currency that could be used to build confidence that the country could handle taking on debt. Prior to that foreign countries were wary, to say the least, about lending us money, as we has 13 or so different economies at once. The bill of rights was thrown in there to lure in states and delegates who were wary of the economic drivers behind this document. So, nothing is pure man, like I said, libertarianism, like idealism is just over analyzing a day dream. It bears no actual use or bearing. There are many circumstances in which individual rights have to be valued less that the greater good, more than the specifics mentioned. A country needs mechanisms in place in order to execute properly in such circumstances. Life isn't fair. Life isn't fair for a homeless person, a dying child, a middle class family, a politician, a pot farmer, and a millionaire alike, just ask them. Instead of trying to change the outside circumstances to suit how life isn't fair to you at the hands of the US government, just shut the fuck up and deal with it. Things take care of themselves, however you can't always expect it to happen with in your specified time frame. It's all about perspective, look back at any one single 3 year period within this century for the US and anyone can list a massive amount of inequality, violence, pain, sacrifice, lack of rights, so on and so forth. Step back and look at the century as a whole, and many will say it was probably the most important and successful time period any one civilization has seen since man made fire. All thanks to a strong federal government as well as a strong and willing work force that knew when it was best for it to shut the fuck up and drudge on instead of whining. They didn't sit around and cry about debts, they paid the shit off by paying their taxes, so they can eventually move on to the next thing.
If things are so bad for you that paying you taxes is making you go broke, than you should probably put down th J and fucking manage your money properly.
sorry about the tone of this post, the east coast in me is coming out a bit...You can take the man out of...
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
You dont seem to understand the concept. If I work for my paycheck the government gets a cut. If I work harder the government gets a larger cut. If I work even harder... Well you guessed it... The percentage of my check that I get goes down.
I probably havent paid federal taxes in 5 years because I havent made enough to qualify to pay for it.
But you keep missing the other point I am trying to make. THE GOVERNMENT IS SPENDING FAR MORE THAN MY TAXES COVER!!! The spending is completely fucking out of control. The government is currently borrowing 42 cents on the dollar to pay for its programs. That means that everyone would have to have a 40% tax increase to be able to cover just the current costs of what the government is spending...
The government has spent us 13 trillion dollars in real debt and hundreds of trillions of dollars in promised debt into the toilet. 13 trillion dollars is 13 THOUSAND BILLION DOLLARS... Overspent, above all of the taxes we have paid into the system. It is more than the entire production of the united states for a year.
I want smaller government because we are beyond broke. There is nothing left but empty promises. Social Security is looted, 5-10 of the states are likely going to have to declare bankrupcy if it is made possible. There is no money left to spend. And even if you confiscated all of the money from the wealthy it would not begin to cover all of the costs that have been racked up.
People keep missing the point. There is not going to be poor houses, there are going to be soup kitchens and tent cities because the government is destroying the value of the dollar and spending our kids future faster than anyone could possibly keep up the payments.
But hey, when it collapses we will all be equally miserable. Well, except for the rich because they will stay above it all as always.
You just dont seem to get it and you keep buying into what the government is selling you which is class warfare. They have it, you want it, we are going to give it to ya!!!
Fucking pathetic...
One last thing. PLEASE BREAK UP YOUR POSTS INTO PARAGRAPHS!!!