Arizona Immigration Reform Laws.

[Johnnyorganic]

I would also like to add that Hispanic is not a race; it is an ethnicity. A Hispanic may be brown, black, white, or Asian. Thanks to Spanish and Portuguese exploration and colonization, there are Hispanics worldwide.

 

[doc111]

As i understand though... The way the law was before was that someone would have to be pulled over or spoken to by the police for an infraction of the law before they could be asked to provide documentation. With the new law, officers technically still wouldn't be able to pull you over just because you look like you are an illegal immigrant or pull you off the street for no reason. That would be racial profiling... I'm not saying that racial profiling won't happen, because it always happens in some shape or form depending on where you are.... that's just the nature of police. They see something different and to them different is suspect. Anyways, they would have to have probable cause to believe that you are illegal. One of the biggest downsides to this new law in my opinion is that it will cause racial profiling and there is nothing stopping incentive for illegals to come to America for work because it's not the employers that are being punished. If you look at it, we practically have a keep out sign at the border with a help wanted sign 100 yards after that if we don't regulate more on the employers. Illegals who come for work are simply responding to incentives from employers who are desire to pay employees under the table. It's going to be interesting to see how this unfolds and to see what kind of plans other states come up with or what the government does to trump state law regarding illegal immigration.

I got news for ya, profiling is perfectly legal. There's not a damn thing you or I can do about it either. It sucks but that's the way it is. I could drive my VW bus, wallpapered with Grateful Dead and Phish stickers, 10 miles per hour under the speed limit with smoke pouring out of the windows. Guess what. I'm probably gonna get pulled over because I fit a certain profile. Once I'm pulled over it won't be hard to get "probable cause" for a search. Probable cause for a search and profiling, be it racial or otherwise, are 2 totally different things. The cops have to have probable cause in order to search me (which they can fabricate pretty easily) but they don't have to have probable cause in order to stop me.

 

[abe23]

Johnny...I wholeheartedly agree that the courts will decide what is constitutional or not. That's good enough for me. It just seems odd to me that after all your ranting about how 'obamacare' is unconstitutional, you would come out in favor of a law that not only gives the finger to the bill of rights by making it suspicious to be hispanic in arizona but also totally oversteps state's rights as per the constitution. Again, if arizona has the right to check the immigration status of it's residents, can my state issue it's own visas without regard to federal law?

And I really didn't mention race. I said that this law was bigoted and I said it in infringes on the fourth and fifth amendment rights of anyone in arizona who isn't white and doesn't speak english fluently. Can you address that instead of ruffling your feathers about me insinuating that you're a racist? I didn't. It's like with some tea party people, as soon as you question any of their views, they immediately imply that you're accusing them of being racist. Does anyone remember the south park where stan's dad goes on wheel of fortune? Kinda reminds me of that.

 

[hanimmal]

All of the anti illegal immigrant talk is just people having to feel like they are better in some way to another group of people. This has been going on for ever, and it is just sad that we haven't gotten past this.

People cry about the economic reasons they are bad, but they fail to look at the fact that if they are able to say get their landscape done for 1/2 the costs because of illegal labor, the person buying the service (Americans) are able to get it for a serious discount, and can inturn use their own money to buy something else, save, or whatever, it is their money to do so.

Then people complain about all their money going to mexico, but those workers are getting paid what 5-6 bucks an hour? What do they eat? Where do they live? What type of transportation do they have (money for gas, or bus if they cannot walk). All these things are being bought and paid for by these immigrants, and that money is recaptured before it leaves.

So figuring that there may be as many as 20 million illegal immigrants in the us, how do you think that it would affect the economies that they work in? All of a sudden poorer groceries will have even less customers, all the labor costs will have to be doubled, driving up the costs of buying the services in the first place, meaning that many of them will go out of business due to lessening of demand. Not to mention all of the businesses that would rely on selling the materials the businesses that hire those immigrants would stand to lose with all of them gone.

But hey at least then white people in the southwest can feel safe right?

Ps. it is funny to see a website dedicated to a illegal substance, having such a strong response to it being 'illegal' that they are here.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Johnny...I wholeheartedly agree that the courts will decide what is constitutional or not. That's good enough for me. It just seems odd to me that after all your ranting about how 'obamacare' is unconstitutional, you would come out in favor of a law that not only gives the finger to the bill of rights by making it suspicious to be hispanic in arizona but also totally oversteps state's rights as per the constitution. Again, if arizona has the right to check the immigration status of it's residents, can my state issue it's own visas without regard to federal law?

And I really didn't mention race. I said that this law was bigoted and I said it in infringes on the fourth and fifth amendment rights of anyone in arizona who isn't white and doesn't speak english fluently. Can you address that instead of ruffling your feathers about me insinuating that you're a racist? I didn't. It's like with some tea party people, as soon as you question any of their views, they immediately imply that you're accusing them of being racist. Does anyone remember the south park where stan's dad goes on wheel of fortune? Kinda reminds me of that.

I don't recall accusing you of calling me a rascist, by name or insinuation.

And once again, there are Hispanics who are white. Whiter than my lily-white butt cheeks.

You'll have to describe the episode to me. I've never seen an episode of Southpark, although I am aware of its existence. I have not owned a television since 1998.

 

[abe23]

I never mentioned race, but you sure the fuck did.

I was responding to that, but I probably reacted to that a bit hastily. Ironic since that's pretty much exactly what I was accusing you of. Mea culpa...

And sure there are hispanics who are white. There are also illegal immigrants with blond hair and blue eyes. None of them are likely to be harassed about their immigration status by arizona cops though, right?

In the south park i was referring to, randy goes on wheel of fortune and gives 'niggers' as the answer to "people who annoy me", n-ggers (the answer is naggers). He ends up getting stigmatized as 'that nigger guy' and eventually has congress ban the term 'nigger guy' from use...I completely forgot how this was relevant (but i just learned that my nl x skunk isn't really a wake and bake type bud), but i do love south park....don't have a tv either; i watch them online. southparkstudios.com

 

[Johnnyorganic]

I was responding to that, but I probably reacted to that a bit hastily. Ironic since that's pretty much exactly what I was accusing you of. Mea culpa...

And sure there are hispanics who are white. There are also illegal immigrants with blond hair and blue eyes. None of them are likely to be harassed about their immigration status by arizona cops though, right?

In the south park i was referring to, randy goes on wheel of fortune and gives 'niggers' as the answer to "people who annoy me", n-ggers (the answer is naggers). He ends up getting stigmatized as 'that nigger guy' and eventually has congress ban the term 'nigger guy' from use...I completely forgot how this was relevant (but i just learned that my nl x skunk isn't really a wake and bake type bud), but i do love south park....don't have a tv either; i watch them online. southparkstudios.com

Fair enough. Although if the authorities in AZ are smart they will make a point of arresting more than a few non-Mexican (read non-Hispanic) illegal aliens.

Are we still friends?

I hope so.

 

[slomoking13]

All of the anti illegal immigrant talk is just people having to feel like they are better in some way to another group of people. This has been going on for ever, and it is just sad that we haven't gotten past this.

People cry about the economic reasons they are bad, but they fail to look at the fact that if they are able to say get their landscape done for 1/2 the costs because of illegal labor, the person buying the service (Americans) are able to get it for a serious discount, and can inturn use their own money to buy something else, save, or whatever, it is their money to do so.

Then people complain about all their money going to mexico, but those workers are getting paid what 5-6 bucks an hour? What do they eat? Where do they live? What type of transportation do they have (money for gas, or bus if they cannot walk). All these things are being bought and paid for by these immigrants, and that money is recaptured before it leaves.

So figuring that there may be as many as 20 million illegal immigrants in the us, how do you think that it would affect the economies that they work in? All of a sudden poorer groceries will have even less customers, all the labor costs will have to be doubled, driving up the costs of buying the services in the first place, meaning that many of them will go out of business due to lessening of demand. Not to mention all of the businesses that would rely on selling the materials the businesses that hire those immigrants would stand to lose with all of them gone.

But hey at least then white people in the southwest can feel safe right?

Ps. it is funny to see a website dedicated to a illegal substance, having such a strong response to it being 'illegal' that they are here.

What about all of the money that isn't spent here and is sent back to mexico? If a grocery store goes out of business because there are no more illegal immigrants, then so be it. What about all of the business owners who try to play by the rules (even though they aren't enforced heavily) and hire all american citizens. They are going out of business now because they can't compete with the low labor cost and they're prices are higher than companies who hire illegal immigrants... Also, prices would be set accordingly... If everyone was legal, then they would recieve higher wages. If prices went up a little bit, it would only level the playing field for businesses giving them perfect competition. I'm not opposed to amnesty because it would make employers raise wages and illegals that are granted amnesty would compete in the same job market for the same wages and have to pay the same taxes to use the benefits they are already finding loopholes to use. If they are paying into the pot like the rest of us, then they deserve the same benefits imo...but if they are recieving the benefits without paying into them, then it causes a failure in the system. Just as a leak in a car's gas tank would cause your car to lose efficiency. Arizona's approach is not the best, but it will most likely drive illegals out through deportation or they will just go to another state which will once again make it a government issue and not state. It's time for the government to do something anyways. I'm a big fan of don't fix it if it's not broke, but the system is definately broken and the government has continued to look the other way as it get's worse and there are fewer options left. I support Arizona's decision mostly because it has lit a fire under the government's ass to finally do something.

EDIT: Also, i remember seeing this hypothetical a while back about legal vs. illegal labor in california. I don't necessarily agree with all of the costs (like 1000 a month for insurance) but the model still gets its point accross. It's called Joe Legal vs. Jose Illegal.

You have 2 families..."Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have 2
parents, 2 children and live in California. "Joe Legal" works in
construction, has a Social Security Number, and makes $25.00 per hour with
payroll taxes deducted...."Jose Illegal" also works in construction, has
"NO" Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".

Joe Legal...$25.00 per hour x 40 hours $1000.00 per week, $52,000 per
year.

Now take 30% away for state federal tax, Joe Legal now has $31,231.00

Jose Illegal...$15.00 per hour x 40 hours $600.00 per week, $31,200.00 per
year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes... Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00

Joe Legal pays Medical and Dental Insurance with limited coverage $1000.00
per month, $12,000.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $19,231.00

Jose Illegal has full Medical and Dental coverage through the state and
local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00

Joe Legal makes too much money is not eligible for Food Stamps or welfare.
Joe Legal pays for food $1,000.00 per month, $12,000.00 per year. Joe
Legal now has $7,231.00

Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for Food Stamps and
Welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays rent of $1,000.00 per month. $12,000.00 per year. Joe Legal
is now in the hole minus (-) $4,769.00

Jose Illegal receives a $500 per month Federal rent subsidy. Jose Illegal
pays rent. $500.00 per month. $6,000.00 per year Jose Illegal still has
$31,200.00

Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after
work.

Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe
Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a
government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school
ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.

Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same Police and Fire Services,
but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.


I enjoy reading your guy's posts and hearing your ideas, keep em comin!

 

[redivider]

What about all of the money that isn't spent here and is sent back to mexico? If a grocery store goes out of business because there are no more illegal immigrants, then so be it. What about all of the business owners who try to play by the rules (even though they aren't enforced heavily) and hire all american citizens. They are going out of business now because they can't compete with the low labor cost and they're prices are higher than companies who hire illegal immigrants... Also, prices would be set accordingly... If everyone was legal, then they would recieve higher wages. If prices went up a little bit, it would only level the playing field for businesses giving them perfect competition. I'm not opposed to amnesty because it would make employers raise wages and illegals that are granted amnesty would compete in the same job market for the same wages and have to pay the same taxes to use the benefits they are already finding loopholes to use. If they are paying into the pot like the rest of us, then they deserve the same benefits imo...but if they are recieving the benefits without paying into them, then it causes a failure in the system. Just as a leak in a car's gas tank would cause your car to lose efficiency. Arizona's approach is not the best, but it will most likely drive illegals out through deportation or they will just go to another state which will once again make it a government issue and not state. It's time for the government to do something anyways. I'm a big fan of don't fix it if it's not broke, but the system is definately broken and the government has continued to look the other way as it get's worse and there are fewer options left. I support Arizona's decision mostly because it has lit a fire under the government's ass to finally do something.

EDIT: Also, i remember seeing this hypothetical a while back about legal vs. illegal labor in california. I don't necessarily agree with all of the costs (like 1000 a month for insurance) but the model still gets its point accross. It's called Joe Legal vs. Jose Illegal.

You have 2 families..."Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have 2
parents, 2 children and live in California. "Joe Legal" works in
construction, has a Social Security Number, and makes $25.00 per hour with
payroll taxes deducted...."Jose Illegal" also works in construction, has
"NO" Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".

Joe Legal...$25.00 per hour x 40 hours $1000.00 per week, $52,000 per
year.

Now take 30% away for state federal tax, Joe Legal now has $31,231.00

Jose Illegal...$15.00 per hour x 40 hours $600.00 per week, $31,200.00 per
year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes... Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00

Joe Legal pays Medical and Dental Insurance with limited coverage $1000.00
per month, $12,000.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $19,231.00

Jose Illegal has full Medical and Dental coverage through the state and
local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00

Joe Legal makes too much money is not eligible for Food Stamps or welfare.
Joe Legal pays for food $1,000.00 per month, $12,000.00 per year. Joe
Legal now has $7,231.00

Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for Food Stamps and
Welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays rent of $1,000.00 per month. $12,000.00 per year. Joe Legal
is now in the hole minus (-) $4,769.00

Jose Illegal receives a $500 per month Federal rent subsidy. Jose Illegal
pays rent. $500.00 per month. $6,000.00 per year Jose Illegal still has
$31,200.00

Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after
work.

Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe
Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a
government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school
ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.

Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same Police and Fire Services,
but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.


I enjoy reading your guy's posts and hearing your ideas, keep em comin!

hey, illegal immigrants do not make 15 dollars an hour.

are you out of you're fucking mind???

the FEDERAL MINIMUM is 7.50, you actually think illegals earn more than that????

hahaha..... you're craaazy.

it's like this.

jose illegal works 14 hours a day and gets paid 25-30 bucks per DAY.

only somebody who's truly out of their element discussing immigration would assume that an illegal immigrant comes to the US and starts earning 15 bucks an hour.

the only immigrants i know who make minimum or more than minimum wage have gone through the trouble of applying for visas, residency, and most have finished the 7 year naturalization period......

either you're over-privileged, under-educated, or both, to think that an illegal alien actually makes 15 bucks an hour.... you craaaaazyyyy.

more like 1.50-3.00 per hour is the market rate for immigrant labor....

unless it's something that has to deal with trust, like stocking inventory and such, which salaries could skyrocket to 5.00/hour territory..... ridiculous....

 

[Johnnyorganic]

hey, illegal immigrants do not make 15 dollars an hour.

are you out of you're fucking mind???

the FEDERAL MINIMUM is 7.50, you actually think illegals earn more than that????

hahaha..... you're craaazy.

it's like this.

jose illegal works 14 hours a day and gets paid 25-30 bucks per DAY.

only somebody who's truly out of their element discussing immigration would assume that an illegal immigrant comes to the US and starts earning 15 bucks an hour.

the only immigrants i know who make minimum or more than minimum wage have gone through the trouble of applying for visas, residency, and most have finished the 7 year naturalization period......

either you're over-privileged, under-educated, or both, to think that an illegal alien actually makes 15 bucks an hour.... you craaaaazyyyy.

more like 1.50-3.00 per hour is the market rate for immigrant labor....

unless it's something that has to deal with trust, like stocking inventory and such, which salaries could skyrocket to 5.00/hour territory..... ridiculous....

Okaaaay! Assuming you are correct....

What is the effect of someone willing to work for $1.50 an hour doing to the average wage of the legal unskilled laborer; in this economy (hovering aroung 10% unemployment), where labor is so cheap?

I can scarcely believe Proggies are defending criminals who steal our social services & health care services, and over-burden our penal system; then send the proceeds back to a third-world country.

I can only think there must be an ulterior motive.

 

[redivider]

hell,

in the US:

an entry/mid-level position requiring at least 4 years of college and 2yrs+ experience in a professional environment, bilingual, computer literate, good communication, and impeccable references from your previous employer will land you a 11.00 per hour job (plus benefits, which can take up to 3 years to fully kick in)......

but jose illegal cleaning dishes and cutting grass is making a killing at 15 bucks per hour.... ignorance is bliss.

that chain e-mail is the stuff that fuels the ignorance in this country.

 

[abe23]

Fair enough. Although if the authorities in AZ are smart they will make a point of arresting more than a few non-Mexican (read non-Hispanic) illegal aliens.

Are we still friends?

I hope so.

Absolutely....

That's why I have to call you out when i think you're being inconsistent....

And being for your right to grow and smoke without harassment from LEO while wanting state and local cops to play immigration gestapo just seems a bit hypocritical to me. Smoking weed is just as illegal crossing the border and staying here without a visa. What's the difference between this and a law requiring the police to give anyone with a norml sticker on their car a cavity search? The constitution say you? Exactly...

 

[redivider]

no wait.

cuz you seem to think that illegals come here for a vacation

have you ever tried to cash a check, pay a bill, or do anything for that matter without an ID??

if you think that's a pain in the ass.....

the only illegal immigrants i know that make more money than I do are the ones that apply for visas, through job sponsorship. and they're no longer illegal once sponsored.

hell, perfect example,

my friend has a house, not big at all, not that much property either.

the crew of six mexicans take about 3-5 hours to mow the lawn, clean up the trees, edge it, put all the waste in bags and take it...

total cost?? 25 bucks.... that covers their fuel to get to the house, the fuel in the mowers, they're labor, and them getting out of there......

15 bucks an hour sure sounds about right......

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Absolutely....

That's why I have to call you out when i think you're being inconsistent....

And being for your right to grow and smoke without harassment from LEO while wanting state and local cops to play immigration gestapo just seems a bit hypocritical to me. Smoking weed is just as illegal crossing the border and staying here without a visa. What's the difference between this and a law requiring the police to give anyone with a norml sticker on their car a cavity search? The constitution say you? Exactly...

Growing and possession is against the law in my state; federal law notwithstanding.

No conflict at all.

And no hypocrisy either.

 

[slomoking13]

hey, illegal immigrants do not make 15 dollars an hour.

are you out of you're fucking mind???

the FEDERAL MINIMUM is 7.50, you actually think illegals earn more than that????

hahaha..... you're craaazy.

it's like this.

jose illegal works 14 hours a day and gets paid 25-30 bucks per DAY.

only somebody who's truly out of their element discussing immigration would assume that an illegal immigrant comes to the US and starts earning 15 bucks an hour.

the only immigrants i know who make minimum or more than minimum wage have gone through the trouble of applying for visas, residency, and most have finished the 7 year naturalization period......

either you're over-privileged, under-educated, or both, to think that an illegal alien actually makes 15 bucks an hour.... you craaaaazyyyy.

more like 1.50-3.00 per hour is the market rate for immigrant labor....

unless it's something that has to deal with trust, like stocking inventory and such, which salaries could skyrocket to 5.00/hour territory..... ridiculous....

first off, i didn't write the chain letter and i said that i didn't agree with some of the numbers in it. but thanks for being a prick about it anyways! Second, i know an illegal immigrant right here in the town i live in, his name is louis and he works for 15 dollars an hour cash under the table doing janitorial work and busing tables for a restaurant. He also works for 12 dollars an hour under the table painting houses. He's currently driving a brand new full size f150 with 24" lexanis on it. So you can speak in all the generalizations you want about illegal immigrants working for whatever wage, but i know some of them that are making a killing and are having no problem paying bills without an id. I have a bachelors degree in business from a good university and make over 20 dollars an hour but in the end of the day when it's all said and done, louis and i make about the same amount of money before i pay taxes. He makes more than i do once the government gets their chunk of the money. So i don't know where you are getting your 11 dollar an hour figures from for someone with a bachelors degree... maybe someone with a useless liberal arts degree or an associate's degree makes that right out of school, but i made over 11 an hour working a part time job while i was in school.... The fact of the matter is that they are undercutting wages no matter where it is, here a normal painter would get paid close to 15 an hour and pay taxes on that and the employer would have to pay the 15 plus taxes... so instead he just pays someone 12 dollars an hour cash and saves a good 20+% on labor.

 

[ink the world]

My grandparents were immigrants, i have no problem w/ immigrants.

I couldnt care less about illegal immigrants, do it the right and legal way like my ancestors did.

A big-assed moat and some gun towers on the border would do the trick.

 

[jcdws602]

Wait till they take all the immigrants out of Az......we will see what happens to az economy......if you have ever lived or visited phoenix and all the little cities around phoenix...you'll know that the majority of people are hispanic......I'm for protecting the borders but stopping anybody that looks mexican which is like 75% of the people in phoenix az will cause a big mess........and for those that think most of these hispanics that work are sending their money to mexico is crazy they can barely afford to pay their rent and utilities with the wages they earn.....the only hispanics sending money back are mexican dope dealers and human smugglers........the illegals they should be arresting but don't since those illegals have enough money to pay corrupted officials off........but no one talks about that......and no one that has never lived or known people in Az knows what is going on down there,only what the media lets you know....all these illegals coming in to the us is because of neglect at the border which is federal responsibility not the state's....they should of been focusing protecting the border then.......now they are trying to have the state pick up their slack..........

 

[RickWhite]

Illegal immigration is a complicated issue.

One thing I do know is that I love boning hot Latina chicks.

 

[dukeofbaja]

Illegal immigration is a complicated issue.

One thing I do know is that I love boning hot Latina chicks.

Mail order, or quid pro quo?

 

[medicineman]

I don't recall accusing you of calling me a rascist, by name or insinuation.

And once again, there are Hispanics who are white. Whiter than my lily-white butt cheeks.

You'll have to describe the episode to me. I've never seen an episode of Southpark, although I am aware of its existence. I have not owned a television since 1998.

Now I understand, you're just ignorant of current events. Uhhhh, a few things have changed since 1998, you've missed them all. Geeze, even Shows like American Idol and dancing with the stars, How can you survive? (Sarcasm intended)