What do gays really want?

[MexicanWarlord420]

TLDR version of this thread?

 

[fdd2blk]

it seems we have determined gay as being a birth defect. should they be allowed to apply for handicapped parking?

 

[buttery420]

The argument that that which is natural is good and healthy is a bad one. Down Syndrome is a genetic condition which is not healthy. And goodness of the person is a whole other matter.

Did you honestly just compare an individuals sexual orientation to severe mental disability?

So, you are gay - so what. Why do you find it necessary to constantly seek out approval from others? Why do you feel that we should change the ideals of society just to validate your self image.

What you imply above and in many other instances is utterly insulting and wrong. Can you not imagine, given what you just said, why the gay community would seek to be understood?

And for that matter, who is next? What if prostitutes all got together and demanded that the public change their views on prostitution? After all, aren't they people too and don't they deserve the same rights as you do?

Prostitution is a job not a sexual orientation, they deserve the same rights as any other worker and deserve to be treated with respect just like any other human being. What exactly is wrong with that? It's a great source of cash and some people just really enjoy sex.

Quite Frankly, I don't know why you feel this is necessary in order for you to feel validated. If anything is a shortcoming on your part, it is that more so than your sexual preference.

It's not a sense of validation...people seek understanding, not blind discrimination. And if you deny this simply take some time to reflect on what you just implied; this individuals sexual preference is a short-coming, comparable to down-syndrome. Now if you don't understand what's wrong with that I'm afraid you'll probably die the same bigoted person you are now.

 

[Miss MeanWeed]

Stop what? Defending his position? I am confused. This is politics. The point is to vigorously defend your position and, hopefully, give some of the more open minded folks some food for thought.

Although the title of the thread is "What do Gays Really Want?”, that was not the intent of the thread. The thread was specifically posted as an insult to me because laughingduck didn't like the idea of a gay guy (me) expressing an opinion. He told me he was sorry for starting the thread and did not expect it to go as far as it did. Kudos to laughingduck for manning up and understanding that what he posted was hurtful. But, I never wanted or asked for a sanction. Folks should be able to speak their mind.

That being said, when you or your beliefs are being attacked, your must vigorously defend yourself. Sometimes that might involve a counter attack. Despite what Rickwhite says, his views and posts would be viewed by most people as racist, misogynistic, and homophobic.

As much as I hate to hear people like this spew their hateful remarks, this is a political forum and they have a right to do so; just like I and others have not just a right, but an obligation to counter speech that could even motivate people to violence. I could almost imagine some younger teen reading a rickwhite or viredd post and going out to find some “queers” to beat the crap out of them--or worse. How about Matthew Sheppard?

Especially appalling was the post by Miss MeanWeed. The horrible attitude and condemnation of a poor 7 year old boy! In his/her words “the world’s biggest fag.” This poor kid needs love and compassion, not mean, snide remarks. If this portrayal was truthful, I sincerely hope that poor kid gets some help. At 7 years old, he is a much better person than either the mother or father.

I get so sick and tired of having to defend myself. Let any of these folks who “know it all” stand in my shoes and see what the discrimination is like: Not getting housing, losing a job, getting fired from a job, people recoiling in fear, being rejected by friends. And I consider myself lucky! Some gays and lesbians have it even worse!

This child does need love and compassion and understanding, correct, but most importantly he needs psychological intervention and a guided series of structured lessons that will hopefully undo the crossed wires in his brain.

It is because of the unfortunate series of events that befell this child, that he is surely set onto the path of the homosexual lifestyle. This is not normal behaviour for a child of seven. His entire gay personality is a manifested side effect of emotional trauma. Unfortunately his coping mechanism is defining his future persona, so much so that soon this gay personality may dominate all normal childhood behaviours and prevent regular rational and adaptive mental growth.

He needs immediate help or he will be gay for life.

 

[dukeofbaja]

Did you honestly just compare an individuals sexual orientation to severe mental disability?

What you imply above and in many other instances is utterly insulting and wrong. Can you not imagine, given what you just said, why the gay community would seek to be understood?

Prostitution is a job not a sexual orientation, they deserve the same rights as any other worker and deserve to be treated with respect just like any other human being. What exactly is wrong with that? It's a great source of cash and some people just really enjoy sex.

It's not a sense of validation...people seek understanding, not blind discrimination. And if you deny this simply take some time to reflect on what you just implied; this individuals sexual preference is a short-coming, comparable to down-syndrome. Now if you don't understand what's wrong with that I'm afraid you'll probably die the same bigoted person you are now.

Thank you for articulating what I am too stoned to say. + rep

 

[PadawanBater]

Are you guys honestly making the claim that there are absolutely no homosexual people who grow up in happy, healthy homes?

 

[RickWhite]

Did you honestly just compare an individuals sexual orientation to severe mental disability?

If you are that incapable of comprehending what you read, perhaps you shouldn't post.

Down Syndrome was used as an example of why the fallacy of appeal to nature is wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

What you imply above and in many other instances is utterly insulting and wrong. Can you not imagine, given what you just said, why the gay community would seek to be understood?

I agree that homosexuals should be understood. But, this is not what they are asking for. They are asking people to hold favorable views regardless of what the facts are. Many believe it is best to promote a false impression of Gays in order to achieve a given ends. Those being that they are not harassed or discriminated against. These are noble goals but there is a right way and a wrong way to achieve this. Promoting lies because you feel the ends will justify the means is an old Marxist idea and one I can never endorse. Understanding is achieved through truth and honest debate, not through the promotion of lies.

Prostitution is a job not a sexual orientation, they deserve the same rights as any other worker and deserve to be treated with respect just like any other human being. What exactly is wrong with that? It's a great source of cash and some people just really enjoy sex.

Aside from the fact that prostitutes are nearly always victims of sexual abuse as children and that they are slaves in a never ending cycle of victimization and self degradation?

This is a whole other topic but your take on this issue serves only to showcase your ignorance.

It's not a sense of validation...people seek understanding, not blind discrimination. And if you deny this simply take some time to reflect on what you just implied; this individuals sexual preference is a short-coming, comparable to down-syndrome. Now if you don't understand what's wrong with that I'm afraid you'll probably die the same bigoted person you are now.

It is you who is the bigot.

Understanding comes from truth, not from blind advocacy as I have already addressed. And demands that all of society make policy changes that endorse the Gay life is not a desire for understanding, it is a cry for validation.

I never said his sexual preference is a shortcoming, nor did I compare it to a handicap - that is a product of your poor reading comprehension.

Also, in the first sentence of your last paragraph you are making a false dichotomy between understanding and "blind discrimination." It is this type of over simplified thinking that prevents you from seeing things clearly and being able to reason critically.

People do not need to understand others in order to respect their basic rights. And, they certainly don't have to engage in blind acceptance in order to do so.

It is possible to ensure that Gays have all the same rights as everyone else. It is possible to ensure through rule of law that like everyone else they are free from harassment and are afforded equal protection under the law.

All this can be done with the current system we have in place, we do not need, nor should we attempt to engage in another misguided exercise in social engineering in order to do so.

 

[fdd2blk]

why can't you guys debate without all the childish name calling?

i will delete posts. if it continues i will give infractions.
if your post disappears, consider it a warning.

or i could just close this thread. this is twice now, on this thread, that i have asked politely.

 

[Keenly]

pursuit of happiness... means happiness for ALL, not just for those who want to dictate morality...

its just like these idiots protesting at the UC school because they found a KKK hood


the first amendment protects ALL speech, including racial and hate speech, you need to deal with it


its not freedom of speech only if you want to hear it... its freedom for ALL

 

[shepj]

pursuit of happiness... means happiness for ALL

You're damn right, therefore no one individual has the right to discminiate against another (based on race, creed, color, etc... as this is a denial of happiness to the individual being discriminated against).

 

[buttery420]

If you are that incapable of comprehending what you read, perhaps you shouldn't post.

Down Syndrome was used as an example of why the fallacy of appeal to nature is wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

The mere fact that you chose to use down-syndrome as an example is very telling about your attitude.
The appeal to nature fallacy is usually used to criticize things like the homeopathic industry and encompasses ideas such as anything "un-natural" is bound to have negative consequences. I don't know how you think this sort of theoretical jargon justifies your bigotry?

I agree that homosexuals should be understood. But, this is not what they are asking for. They are asking people to hold favorable views regardless of what the facts are. Many believe it is best to promote a false impression of Gays in order to achieve a given ends.

The false impression being that gay people may be normally functioning, happy individuals who are able to live fulfilling lives... What "facts" are you referring to that would lead people to hold unfavorable views towards homosexuals?

Those being that they are not harassed or discriminated against. These are noble goals but there is a right way and a wrong way to achieve this. Promoting lies because you feel the ends will justify the means is an old Marxist idea and one I can never endorse. Understanding is achieved through truth and honest debate, not through the promotion of lies.

No one is "promoting lies" in this context. I haven't a clue why you'd think it is a Marxist concept to do so...very prominent in capitalist society however.

Aside from the fact that prostitutes are nearly always victims of sexual abuse as children

Any resources that can back up your claim that the majority of prostitutes are sexually abused? I don't think so. That's a patriarchal analysis. In my experience the vast majority of people who work in this industry are psychologically sound, consenting adults.

and that they are slaves in a never ending cycle of victimization and self degradation?

This is a description of anyone who is part of the working class.

This is a whole other topic but your take on this issue serves only to showcase your ignorance.

On the contrary I think it serves to showcase your patriarchy.

It is you who is the bigot.

Please elaborate.

Understanding comes from truth, not from blind advocacy as I have already addressed. And demands that all of society make policy changes that endorse the Gay life is not a desire for understanding, it is a cry for validation.

Once again the truth being, in your view, that homosexuality is "un-natural" and therefor wrong...isn't that the appeal to nature fallacy that you were trying to rebut previously? If anything it is a cry for legalized equality, against blind hatred and discrimination. I don't think policy changes do much to change attitude's such as yours but if your rights are protected by law give me one reason why the rights of another human being should be ignored based on sexual orientation.

I never said his sexual preference is a shortcoming, nor did I compare it to a handicap - that is a product of your poor reading comprehension.

Yes you did. It is a product of reading between the lines.

Also, in the first sentence of your last paragraph you are making a false dichotomy between understanding and "blind discrimination." It is this type of over simplified thinking that prevents you from seeing things clearly and being able to reason critically.

I don't think this is a black and white issue, and was never making a generalized statement that there is blind discrimination, understanding and nothing in between, but in this instance you lack understanding. I don't think your discrimination is so blind either. You actually try to cover it up with crude intellectual arguments that lead nowhere and are intended to confuse.

People do not need to understand others in order to respect their basic rights. And, they certainly don't have to engage in blind acceptance in order to do so.

Basic rights according to the law are practiced very differently in a societal setting. People need a sense of understanding to truly empathize with a said cause. It is only when people gain an understanding that the intended purpose of the law will have any effect.

It is possible to ensure that Gays have all the same rights as everyone else. It is possible to ensure through rule of law that like everyone else they are free from harassment and are afforded equal protection under the law.

All this can be done with the current system we have in place, we do not need, nor should we attempt to engage in another misguided exercise in social engineering in order to do so.

Funny that previously you stated any attempt to change legislation was aimed at gaining a sense of "validation".
Tweaking the law will never ensure that gays and lesbians are free from harassment. Laws do very little to impact societal views and these are the views that impact negatively on the gay community at present.

 

[kappainf]

The most simple answer to the question, "what do gays really want?" They want to have sex with the same sex.

 

[upnorth2505]

The most simple answer to the question, "what do gays really want?" They want to have sex with the same sex.

This question being posted in politics section requires an answer beyond that. Having sex with the same sex merely defines a person as gay. It addresses nothing about what they “really” want.

The OP was really meant to be a personal attack on me, although my name was not specifically mentioned. The implicit suggestion in the post was that gays wanted something special, nefarious, or harmful to society.

Although I am no spokesperson for the gay community, I can give an answer that covers the bases pretty well.
In the most basic sense, they want “Unalienable Rights” put forth in the Declaration of Independence: Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Within that context, they want a life free of discrimination; to be able to participate fully in society. With respect to discrimination specifically, they want:

1. To be able to rent or buy housing just like everyone else.
2. To be able to work in a job which they are qualified for without being worried about termination, or harassment.
3. To be able to Marry
4. To be able to adopt children, have families, and to participate in the joy family life brings.
5. To be subject to the same obligations and requirements of citizenship as everyone else.
6. To participate in the Military without fear of dishonorable discharge
7. To not be barred from membership to most clubs, committees, and boards
8. To expect a reasonable level of safety from physical assault, harassment, or murder


I think it is worth noting what some of the things that gays DO NOT want:

1. Special rights or anything that could be construed as such
2. Preferential treatment
3. To be coddled, or pitied

It would be nice if more folks were understanding, accepting, or at least cordial. But there is really no “right” to that per se.

So that is about it. There is no deep dark secret agenda as some have implied.

 

[upnorth2505]

This child does need love and compassion and understanding, correct, but most importantly he needs psychological intervention and a guided series of structured lessons that will hopefully undo the crossed wires in his brain.

It is because of the unfortunate series of events that befell this child, that he is surely set onto the path of the homosexual lifestyle. This is not normal behaviour for a child of seven. His entire gay personality is a manifested side effect of emotional trauma. Unfortunately his coping mechanism is defining his future persona, so much so that soon this gay personality may dominate all normal childhood behaviours and prevent regular rational and adaptive mental growth.

He needs immediate help or he will be gay for life.

Well, I got a little carried over the top with my first response to this post and it got deleted. I shall try again with a bit more tact.

I agree that the child needs immediate help and intervention. But not for the purpose of “uncrossing wires”, or preventing the child from being “gay for life”, or as you stated in an earlier post preventing him from being the “World’s Biggest Fag”. If the child is gay, and it sounds like he most likely is, to try to change his orientation would be extremely harmful to his well-being and self esteem.

You would be hard pressed to find any metal health professional that would be willing to perform this type of “therapy”. Not only is it virtually 100% ineffective, but it has been proven that such therapy almost always results in a person who is less well-adjusted, and more likely to commit suicide. Add to this that such therapy is usually performed by unqualified ultra-right wing evangelical Christians, and you have a recipe for disaster.

The therapy this child would mostly likely benefit from is the type that helps him emotionally deal with the trauma he has already suffered. He needs help to rebuild his self esteem which has been obliterated by being called fag, queer, sissy, girly, and whatever else. I would not be surprised if there was physical abuse as well.

I have friends in psychology and social services. Probably, the best course of action for this child who has been so severely damaged by his parents and family “friends”, would be for him to be removed and placed in a home where he will be able to receive some love and understanding.

If the parents wanted a part in this child’s life, then they must be required to attend counseling themselves to provide unconditional love and support and to halt all abuse inflicted to date. This includes calling him fag, sissy, the world’s biggest fag, or trying to change his sexual orientation.

 

[fdd2blk]

sooo much better, thank you. and it comes across as much more intelligent as well.

seriously, thank you.

 

[RickWhite]

Well, I got a little carried over the top with my first response to this post and it got deleted. I shall try again with a bit more tact.

I agree that the child needs immediate help and intervention. But not for the purpose of “uncrossing wires”, or preventing the child from being “gay for life”, or as you stated in an earlier post preventing him from being the “World’s Biggest Fag”.

Putting aside the inflammatory language in this person's OP, you are wrong about what this child needs.

The post in question described an abusive environment complete with alcoholism, etc. The poster painted a picture of an environment that they believe is causing the child to experience a crisis with regard to his sexual identity.

In your desire to convey that there is nothing wrong with being gay (and there may well not be) you are overlooking the fact that this child's sexual identity is being altered without the child's consent or knowledge, assuming the OP is correct in his/her analysis. If we assume this is true, a grave injustice, a crime, is being perpetrated against this child.

To ignore the possibility that this type of thing happens simply because you wish to promote positive attitudes about homosexuality is a major moral failing on your part and on the part of everyone who thinks like you.

That is the problem with many people's attitude toward homosexuality. You are so fixated on changing how the world perceives Gays, that you completely ignore what are potentially millions of children being forced into homosexuality by no choice of their own. It is quite Frankly, about the most selfish position a person can hold and it is proof that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

If the child is gay, and it sounds like he most likely is, to try to change his orientation would be extremely harmful to his well-being and self esteem.

You would be hard pressed to find any metal health professional that would be willing to perform this type of “therapy”. Not only is it virtually 100% ineffective, but it has been proven that such therapy almost always results in a person who is less well-adjusted, and more likely to commit suicide.

False, the APA which is more of a gay advocacy group than a scientific community, has been spreading lies about this, even going so far as to suggest that psychologists refuse such treatment even when requested by the patient. Like other opinions regarding homosexuality, they base their opinions not on the presence of studies supporting this notion, but on LACK of studies to the contrary.

However, even if there is no effective therapy for reversing homosexuality, that in no way suggests that there shouldn't be intervention on the part of the child in question while the child is still young enough.

But, see what you did here. You skipped completely over the reality of the child's abusive environment and went straight into a gay activism speech - forgive me but I am more concerned with advocating on behalf of an abused child than on yours. Everything you are saying, is meant to detract from our understanding of child abuse and how homosexuality could a possible outcome in favor of promoting a pro gay attitude - shame on you.

Add to this that such therapy is usually performed by unqualified ultra-right wing evangelical Christians, and you have a recipe for disaster.

That I agree with. Regardless of what the facts are, prayer isn't the answer.

The therapy this child would mostly likely benefit from is the type that helps him emotionally deal with the trauma he has already suffered. He needs help to rebuild his self esteem which has been obliterated by being called fag, queer, sissy, girly, and whatever else. I would not be surprised if there was physical abuse as well.

Again, you are spinning the issue into an anti-gay thing. IIRC, the OP said nothing about gay bashing. Child abuse and an alcoholic mother were mentioned, not gay bashing. Your compassion sounds particularly self serving.

I have friends in psychology and social services. Probably, the best course of action for this child who has been so severely damaged by his parents and family “friends”, would be for him to be removed and placed in a home where he will be able to receive some love and understanding.

If the parents wanted a part in this child’s life, then they must be required to attend counseling themselves to provide unconditional love and support and to halt all abuse inflicted to date. This includes calling him fag, sissy, the world’s biggest fag, or trying to change his sexual orientation.

Again, you are spinning the OP's comments to make it seem like gay bashing is the cause of the kid's problems when it is not.

Suppose a link was shown between child abuse and homosexuality. Suppose we could get an abusive parents to understand that if they abuse their children or withhold love that their child might turn gay in an effort to receive the love they didn't get as a child. Do you think such knowledge would be beneficial? Do you think fewer fathers would slap their kids around if they were told that it would make them gay?

You know that despite a lot of rumors, there really is no evidence of a genetic cause of homosexuality. Even the APA has backed off on such beliefs. So, it very well be that child abuse is one of the major causes of homosexuality. Given this fact, how can anyone make the argument that this is not something we should be studying?

The reason why, is because if people believe that homosexuality is in any way shape or form caused by child abuse or neglect, it would imply that homosexuals are damaged people. That, it is feared could be used as the basis for discrimination. And that, is what Gays and gay advocates such as the APA wish to overcome.

The bottom line is that proponents of Gays are more concerned with promoting a positive image for Gays than they are about protecting children.

After all, if homosexuality is "natural" the homosexual is a perfectly normal product of nature. If is the product of abuse or neglect, the homosexual is damaged.

You would be perfectly fine with sweeping the abuse aspect under the rug if it meant that society would look at you as the former rather than the latter.

Where you are going wrong is in your belief in this false dichotomy. There is a third option. The third, and best option, is to encourage true scientific inquiry that is free of political pressure from activist groups like the APA. When we truly understand all aspects of homosexuality, we can develop an informed plan and policies. If there is a component of abuse, we have a moral obligation not to sweep it under the rug, but to educate parents as to what aspects of their parenting need improvement. If we find a genetic component, so be it. But even then, studies should be conducted to better understand issues that may be endemic to the gay population. After all, there is a disproportionate high rate of a number of social problems in the gay population. It is wrong, and does them a disservice, to simply write this off as resulting from the stress of being a minority. That too, is a position of activism and not science. If it is true, we ought to know for sure, but if the problems stem from other issues, everyone benefits if we know why.

What we should seek above all is the truth, and we should never suppress it because we feel that the ends will justify the means. That, is a disservice to all of us.

 

[shepj]

The reason why, is because if people believe that homosexuality is in any way shape or form caused by child abuse or neglect, it would imply that homosexuals are damaged people. That, it is feared could be used as the basis for discrimination. And that, is what Gays and gay advocates such as the APA wish to overcome.

After all, if homosexuality is "natural" the homosexual is a perfectly normal product of nature. If is the product of abuse or neglect, the homosexual is damaged.

And you think it is "natural" that someone wants to be under the influence of a substance twenty-four/seven? To never maintain the responsibilities of someone who lives a sober lifestyle and manages with their issues (whether psychological, or social) via coping with the use of a substance?

These arguments can be utilized in other forms, should you open your eyes to them.

 

[upnorth2505]

Again, you are spinning the OP's comments to make it seem like gay bashing is the cause of the kid's problems when it is not.

Suppose a link was shown between child abuse and homosexuality. Suppose we could get an abusive parents to understand that if they abuse their children or withhold love that their child might turn gay in an effort to receive the love they didn't get as a child. Do you think such knowledge would be beneficial? Do you think fewer fathers would slap their kids around if they were told that it would make them gay?

You know that despite a lot of rumors, there really is no evidence of a genetic cause of homosexuality. Even the APA has backed off on such beliefs. So, it very well be that child abuse is one of the major causes of homosexuality. Given this fact, how can anyone make the argument that this is not something we should be studying?

The reason why, is because if people believe that homosexuality is in any way shape or form caused by child abuse or neglect, it would imply that homosexuals are damaged people. That, it is feared could be used as the basis for discrimination. And that, is what Gays and gay advocates such as the APA wish to overcome.

The bottom line is that proponents of Gays are more concerned with promoting a positive image for Gays than they are about protecting children.

After all, if homosexuality is "natural" the homosexual is a perfectly normal product of nature. If is the product of abuse or neglect, the homosexual is damaged.

You would be perfectly fine with sweeping the abuse aspect under the rug if it meant that society would look at you as the former rather than the latter.

Where you are going wrong is in your belief in this false dichotomy. There is a third option. The third, and best option, is to encourage true scientific inquiry that is free of political pressure from activist groups like the APA. When we truly understand all aspects of homosexuality, we can develop an informed plan and policies. If there is a component of abuse, we have a moral obligation not to sweep it under the rug, but to educate parents as to what aspects of their parenting need improvement. If we find a genetic component, so be it. But even then, studies should be conducted to better understand issues that may be endemic to the gay population. After all, there is a disproportionate high rate of a number of social problems in the gay population. It is wrong, and does them a disservice, to simply write this off as resulting from the stress of being a minority. That too, is a position of activism and not science. If it is true, we ought to know for sure, but if the problems stem from other issues, everyone benefits if we know why.

What we should seek above all is the truth, and we should never suppress it because we feel that the ends will justify the means. That, is a disservice to all of us.

Not much to say Rick. But why, how and for what reason do you think there is a "secret" or otherwise agenda. Do you think there is an ongoing clandestine conspiracy to make the whole world gay?

Why is it that you think the way you think? Sometimes folks who are so vocal have something in their past. Some may have been molested by a male figure in their youth? Who knows?

My opinion, and it is just that, is when folks hysterically define, defend, and promote fringe views that involve an irrational perceived threat or danger, then there is a serious problem with that individual. Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, would be a classic example of this.

 

[PadawanBater]

Hey Rick, I'd love your opinion on this thread;

https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/308136-different-angle-homosexual-debate.html

 

[dukeofbaja]

Posted by Rick White: "...In your desire to convey that there is nothing wrong with being gay (and there may well not be)..."

At this point, I would like to ask for clarification...

Rick, are you stating ambivalence as to whether or not there is something wrong with being gay? If so, what is so wrong?

(I would go on a flame at this point, but by gosh y'all are bein' so civil, schucks. Damn you fdd for moderating, you so-called 'moderator')