NUBE HERE !!! Help Appreciated

[BeginnersLuck]

Hello all, long time indulger but I am new to the forums and new to growing looking for a little help/advice here.

Lowdown - Hydro, drip system (now), plants are from 2-6 inches big about 4 weeks old, Fem Big Cheese, Fem Skunk, Fem Afghan, and some (yet to be sexed) Bubbilicous all from seed. Lights - 2 1000w; 1 1k MH 1 1k HPS, Room temps 64 night-80 day; RH 35-55%, Medium is 6 inch extreme rockwool cube, dripper set 3 x day for 30 minutes ( tray fills about half to 3/4 during this time), plan on transplanting into CAP ebb and grow system in the next week. Since the plants have grown bigger I have (during the drip times) hand watering the plants with an additional hose as well to saturate all the cubes for 15-25 minutes (Until my Ebb and Grow gets here - 5 days). I make sure to limit my splash onto the plants. I was also misting 1 - 2 times a day with spray; I have stopped this as of today until the issue(s) are resolved. Lucas formula, PPMs 750-1000 @ .5, RO Water PH 5.55-5.85 - calibrate both bi-weekly.

Problems - First during the second week of a low ppm solution while they were establishing roots I mixed the Lucas formula up; gave it 2 parts Micro and 1 part bloom. Doh!!! - Newb!!!; to much indulging. Fixed that mixup, flushed and cleanser. Fed just tap water with a low 200-300 PPM solution, TAP is 225 ppm out of faucet. About 2.5 weeks ago all my new and aging fan leaves were VERY light green and the tips were turning brown old leaves would shrivel up and die; during this stage there were getting TAP water and at about 300 ppm. After doing some investigating I started to bump up the nutes assuming I had a N deficient plant. I gradually over the course of a week got the PPMs up about 200 PPM a day to about 700-800. About 1.5 weeks ago I switched to RO water to avoid the constant PH issues ( I was adding lots of ph down) and to be more in control on my TDS. In addition to the Lucas method I also started adding a bit of epsom salt ( just a pinch) and 4-8ml/gal of Magical. I set this ppm to about 800. Initially the new plant growth greened up nicely. In fact on some of the plants the green is still nice. However on most of them the lush green has turned back into a lighter green but not as light as before. These are the main fan leaves I am referencing. It seems however that each day a new set of leaves is added, the next morning the existing set has a burnt tip that looks brownish/rust (almost wet?). The then "older leaves" look a bit worse till you go down a couple sets and they are fried.. The "under" fan leaves all appear very green but on a couple of them the tip has bent over upward, or even bent in half up ( only like 5% of these leaves). Additionally I wanted to point out that I am also using food grade h202 at about 5ml/gal. Another thing I would like to mention is that even though in my res my PH is stable my runoff in the trays flucuates alot, from 5.5-5.9. When I presoaked my rockwool I didnt buffer it; newb!. I know this is a bit much and remember I am a newb at all this any advise would be appreciated. I am confused if these are starved or overfed... One last thing to mention, my res is 32 gallons in which I use 16-24 gallons. Since I switched to RO water 1.5 weeks ago I havent recycled in new nutes yet. I am trying to wait for the Ebb and Grow to arrive. I am wondering if the solution is now just "bad". Also to mention never seen any bugs in the garden.

Thanks for ANY help and advise in advanced. I love doing this its so rewarding, just cant wait to get better at it.

Beginners-unluck

This little guy rocks lol

 

[Big P]

sup man, seems you got a lot of things going on


note that less is better than too much



you dont want to meddle too too much

my water starts at 75 ppm if your clones are like 6" tall you dont want to go more than about 300 PPM depending on strain

i do DWC and there is a sure fire way to know exactly if there is too much or too little nutes in your res.


say you nuted up your res and tested it and its at 500 ppm

say you come back 2 days later and can see the plants drank some water.

so you test the ppm again after they drank water

if the plants drank water and now the ppm has decreased to say 450 ppm

then you know your plants are sucking up more nutes than water and that meens you need to up the ppms a lil

but if you see the plant drank water but the ppm is higher say like 600 ppm now

that tells you that your plants are sucking up more water than nutes which means your mix is too strong and the plant is leaving nutes behind and just trying to get the water

if the plants drank water and the ppm is still the same it means they are drinking same amount of water as nutes and you are at a good feedling level for the time being.


anyway I also recommend doing DWC deep water culture its the easyest Hydroponics system to use and grows real fast and huge.

and also allows you to use the above method for feeding.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

sup man, seems you got a lot of things going on


note that less is better than too much



you dont want to meddle too too much

my water starts at 75 ppm if your clones are like 6" tall you dont want to go more than about 300 PPM depending on strain

i do DWC and there is a sure fire way to know exactly if there is too much or too little nutes in your res.


say you nuted up your res and tested it and its at 500 ppm

say you come back 2 days later and can see the plants drank some water.

so you test the ppm again after they drank water

if the plants drank water and now the ppm has decreased to say 450 ppm

then you know your plants are sucking up more nutes than water and that meens you need to up the ppms a lil

but if you see the plant drank water but the ppm is higher say like 600 ppm now

that tells you that your plants are sucking up more water than nutes which means your mix is too strong and the plant is leaving nutes behind and just trying to get the water

if the plants drank water and the ppm is still the same it means they are drinking same amount of water as nutes and you are at a good feedling level for the time being.


anyway I also recommend doing DWC deep water culture its the easyest Hydroponics system to use and grows real fast and huge.

and also allows you to use the above method for feeding.

Big P its a pleasure and thanks for taking the time to check out my post I appreciate it alot. So you noticed huh.. When I was upping my nutes from the 200 to the 800 over the two week period I was using those principals. I kept seeing my PPM go down faster then the water so that is why I kept adding back to get to the 700-800 level. At this level it remains right around there. One thing to note though is that I am using the 6 inch extreme rockwool cubes and they hold ALOT of water.. I was wondering if their "old" run off was masking the true ppm? Hmm.

In regards to DWC isnt that what the CAP Ebb and Grow uses as well. I plan on transplanting into that system ASAP ( when the add-ons arrive).

Also to mention again I stared from seed not clones.. And the girls are 4-6 weeks old...

Again thanks for the advice. I appreciate it. I will be adding some pics in a moment, please have a look.

Thanks again to you and all..

Beginner

 

[BeginnersLuck]

All thanks again.. I have attached some pics of my environment and the girls. Sorry about the pics all I have is a crappy phone camera. I hope these help though I am determined to be a good grower someday...

 

[cazador]

Yea it looks like you jumped in head first. Not the easiest way to get your feet wet but what the heck. I commend you on you enthusiasm. Just keep them happy til your DWC system shows up and get them settled.
Subscribed.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Yea it looks like you jumped in head first. Not the easiest way to get your feet wet but what the heck. I commend you on you enthusiasm. Just keep them happy til your DWC system shows up and get them settled.
Subscribed.

Hi Cazador and thanks for the encouragement... So I wanted to mention that for the past 10 days or so the roots have been coming out the bottom of the cubes... It dont seem like lights is getting at them directly however because they are buried benieth the cubes still.
Are you saying just keep up what I am doing until I transplant? It would be ideal if I could determine if I am doing something wrong still or if these are just effects from the abuse that was subjected prior?

Thanks Caz I appreciate it alot..

 

[BeginnersLuck]

All I know that I have subjected the girls to massive amounts of newbi abuse. What I dont know is if these are just effects from the abuse that has yet to work its way out of the medium or plants. Or if I am still causing them stress.. I am not convinced that I am not still killing them in some way(s) shape or form. I realize that they are more or less rootbound but I am very concerned about the leaves more importantly the under leaves that look like they are generating branches that will generate buds? I think I am just ranting soo..

Thanks

Beginner

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I was just checking the girls out and like I pleviously mentioned the 2nd set of newest fan leaves that were green yesterday have rusty/brown - burn looking tips today. The very tips of the under-developed fan leave will be this color with an area of light yellow/white prior to the green. Real older leave that are 60% burnt up show tiny dark dots in the burnt area. I was under the impression this was calcium because I was using tap water to begin with. A couple of the plants still have a few dark dots in the brand new burn. I am using a pinch of epsoms and 4-8 ml of Magical per gal. Just thought I would point it out.

Thanks,

 

[Big P]

sup man,

if those are your plants sizes, 800 ppm is soooo wayyyyyyyy too high man




those size plants would need 300 PPM about, and i start out with 75 ppm water at my place


800 ppm you are burning the shit out of them thats why they are turning crispy

they are too small right now for 800 ppm

also the method i mentioned is based on the fact that the plants are drinking a noticable amount of water, i dont think plants that small will drink enough water to really allow you to gauge it unless you leave them alone for a good couple days then you can really guage the ppm thing, like the method i talked about in my first post


DWC is just a tub of water with an air stone in it to put air in the water

you put the plant in the tubs lid and just let the roots grow down inside it


also i think you shouldnt use the lucas formula right now or any salts just go with basic nutes for now. just go with the directions on the bottle at less than half strength. once you prefect the basics you can then try the formula, i havnt ever tried it myself cuz i get such good results using whats on the bottle.


ooooooo heres another thing, what if your water out of the tap is 300 ppm but once the water is left out the 300 ppm of the water may go down and could be the reason you are getting lower ppm measurements and adding nutes when its too early, do a test fill a glass with your water and let it sit for a day then test the ppm again to see if it changed

also in my tub you will get a false reading if you dont mix the water up before you test cuz some nutes like to sink to the bottom, and this may be why you are getting a lower reading when really its not lower

most i give my gurls is about 800 when they are growing up to 5ft tall!!!


you need to just give them water untill you see new growth then only a lil bit of nutes.



also the plants are way stunted if you have been growing them for 4 weeks,

should be about 18" by now atleast

 

[BeginnersLuck]

sup man,

if those are your plants sizes, 800 ppm is soooo wayyyyyyyy too high man




those size plants would need 300 PPM about, and i start out with 75 ppm water at my place


800 ppm you are burning the shit out of them thats why they are turning crispy

they are too small right now for 800 ppm

also the method i mentioned is based on the fact that the plants are drinking a noticable amount of water, i dont think plants that small will drink enough water to really allow you to gauge it unless you leave them alone for a good couple days then you can really guage the ppm thing, like the method i talked about in my first post


DWC is just a tub of water with an air stone in it to put air in the water

you put the plant in the tubs lid and just let the roots grow down inside it


also i think you shouldnt use the lucas formula right now or any salts just go with basic nutes for now. just go with the directions on the bottle at less than half strength. once you prefect the basics you can then try the formula, i havnt ever tried it myself cuz i get such good results using whats on the bottle.


ooooooo heres another thing, what if your water out of the tap is 300 ppm but once the water is left out the 300 ppm of the water may go down and could be the reason you are getting lower ppm measurements and adding nutes when its too early, do a test fill a glass with your water and let it sit for a day then test the ppm again to see if it changed

also in my tub you will get a false reading if you dont mix the water up before you test cuz some nutes like to sink to the bottom, and this may be why you are getting a lower reading when really its not lower

most i give my gurls is about 800 when they are growing up to 5ft tall!!!


you need to just give them water untill you see new growth then only a lil bit of nutes.



also the plants are way stunted if you have been growing them for 4 weeks,

should be about 18" by now atleast

Big P thanks for the feedback thats exactly what I wanted to hear. Everything you have pointed out I have acknowledged. I know they are stunted, Is it worth trying to flower these things still?

Also the reason that the PPM is so high is cause they have a big root system already some of the roots are 8-10 inches even though that plants are only 4-6 inches or so and have 8 sets of leaves. I was under the impression I starved them so thats why I bumped up the PPMs a couple hundred every couple days til now.

So I am confused; I see new growth, sometimes two sets of leaves a day. Maybe a new set of branches per day too. Should I still back off the PPMs over a half; fro 800ish to 300ish?

am using RO water now and the PPM in that is like 4.

I was just in the shower thinking (tmi sorry) and I was wondering if I should just give them RO water for a couple days.

Then my Ebb and Grow will be ready to transplant and I can start them out on the 0-5-10 mixture even though I am running HIDs? Just many options so little knowledge...

Thanks,

Beginner

 

[Big P]

Big P thanks for the feedback thats exactly what I wanted to hear. Everything you have pointed out I have acknowledged. I know they are stunted, Is it worth trying to flower these things still?

Also the reason that the PPM is so high is cause they have a big root system already some of the roots are 8-10 inches even though that plants are only 4-6 inches or so and have 8 sets of leaves. I was under the impression I starved them so thats why I bumped up the PPMs a couple hundred every couple days til now.

So I am confused; I see new growth, sometimes two sets of leaves a day. Maybe a new set of branches per day too. Should I still back off the PPMs over a half; fro 800ish to 300ish?

am using RO water now and the PPM in that is like 4.

I was just in the shower thinking (tmi sorry) and I was wondering if I should just give them RO water for a couple days.

Then my Ebb and Grow will be ready to transplant and I can start them out on the 0-5-10 mixture even though I am running HIDs? Just many options so little knowledge...

Thanks,

Beginner

if you have 4 ppm water then use that run only water for like 3 days then add about 300 ppm


you can actually grow plants in plain water even I think just wont yield good.

you should see some improvment i think, can you tell me what brand and model ppm meter you have?

dont use the epson salts I never used them and never had a problem. I would stick to the very basics like nutes and thats it untill you master that, because with so much stuff in the mix its harder to figure out what is causing your problem

 

[BeginnersLuck]

if you have 4 ppm water then use that run only water for like 3 days then add about 300 ppm


you can actually grow plants in plain water even I think just wont yield good.

you should see some improvment i think, can you tell me what brand and model ppm meter you have?

dont use the epson salts I never used them and never had a problem. I would stick to the very basics like nutes and thats it untill you master that, because with so much stuff in the mix its harder to figure out what is causing your problem

Big P, I use a hannah ph pen and cal it with 4.01/7.01 on Sat and Weds. I use a pocket size HM TDS pen (.5) calibrate it with 1000 nacl

Thanks...

beginnersuck

 

[Big P]

also i see what you are saying about the large rockwool cubes, make sure they get the fresh clean water inside them. But if the roots are already growing out of the cube a lot you may not have to worry about the cube since most your root sit in the water.


DWC is like this pic. So when you have the root always submerged you dont have to use the ebb and flow method and the plants will just eat as it pleases as long as you dont give it water with too much nutes

thats how my set up is. and I just add water and nutes as needed. hardly 5 min a day work.

unless im flushing.

then you also want change our your solution every 2 weeks atleast. once a week is better but also more costly cuz your are throwing away nutes once a week


if you do not do this then salts will build up in the water and cause nutriant lockout

 

[Big P]

Big P, I use a hannah ph pen and cal it with 4.01/7.01 on Sat and Weds. I use a pocket size HM TDS pen (.5) calibrate it with 1000 nacl

Thanks...

beginnersuck

is it this one?


thats the one i got too

 

[BeginnersLuck]

is it this one?


thats the one i got too

Looks close but this is the exact pen

http://www.altgarden.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=426

 

[BeginnersLuck]

also i see what you are saying about the large rockwool cubes, make sure they get the fresh clean water inside them. But if the roots are already growing out of the cube a lot you may not have to worry about the cube since most your root sit in the water.


DWC is like this pic. So when you have the root always submerged you dont have to use the ebb and flow method and the plants will just eat as it pleases as long as you dont give it water with too much nutes

thats how my set up is. and I just add water and nutes as needed. hardly 5 min a day work.

unless im flushing.

then you also want change our your solution every 2 weeks atleast. once a week is better but also more costly cuz your are throwing away nutes once a week


if you do not do this then salts will build up in the water and cause nutriant lockout

I used this method about 15 years ago I believe in an Emilys Garden...

I am in the process of draining my res now.. I am wondering if I can drian it 3/4 and then add back 8-12 gallons of RO water to get to the lower ppm or if I should dump it all add back fresh water and then nutes...

Beginner

 

[Big P]

Looks close but this is the exact pen

http://www.altgarden.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=426

ya but the above link is the PH pen, what model you have for you ppm meter?


the blue one i posted is a ppm meter from hanna

 

[BeginnersLuck]

ya but the above link is the PH pen, what model you have for you ppm meter?


the blue one i posted is a ppm meter from hanna

Sorry for the mix up

I am using this meter here

http://www.altgarden.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=902

Thanks Big

beginner

 

[BeginnersLuck]

OK so here is an update

I drained my res all but maybe 1/2 inch at the bottom... (1-1.5 gals).

I added 10 gallons of RO water for flushing.

Starting ppm was 150
Starting ph was 4.9

Added 1-2 ml of of PH up and 30 ml h202 (food grade)

ppm 155
ph 5.29

Flushed all the rockwool for about 30 minutes

Run Off - PH was 5.65 when started 5.85 when finished
ppm was about 800 start, 650 finish

Flush is done res now reads PH 5.92, ppm 650 ish

What does this all mean and what should the next step be please..

Thanks so much

Newbi

kiss-ass

 

[BeginnersLuck]

All, I am also wondering if these will still flower being that they are severely stunted. I was under the impression that since they are vegging I should still be okay.. Can the plants overcome this abuse? Also do I need to continue to flush with RO water til PPMs are lower? Finally I still think all my problems are due to NOT buffering my rockwool. Why else would the PH go from 5.29 to 5.91; even though I have been feeding them PH balanced water in the 5.5-5.85 range for a month now. I would have figured that would have buffered them to normal by now...

Thanks...

Beginner