Ever wonder why we're really in Iraq?

medicineman

New Member
Sorry, all fabricated and silly, superficial accusations, totally devoid of any substance, and seriously lacking any historical perspective....Has Bushco sent heads rolling on video for the world to see as has his adversaries?
Nope....
You see malignancy where there is none....it is to our collective detriment!
For shame…
Man you are whacked, Bush is responsible for somewhere between 100,000-800,000 deaths and just because he didn't actually kill them himself you give him a pass. I can't continue to communicate with this blind obedience to Bushs' doctrine, Hey man, you are dillusional, I'd almost feel sorry for you if I didn't think somehow you are making a profit off this atrocious war, Talk about shame!!
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
Med do you realize there is no substantiation for any of your anti US pronouncements?
If there were one scintilla of truth to back up your wild claims Bush would have been impeached by now...

I'll compile a list of travesties and you compile a list of benefits to the average American!
Travesties are quite a bit different from atrocities; Bush has perpetrated numerous travesties, no atrocities that I am aware of...
 

medicineman

New Member
Travesties are quite a bit different from atrocities; Bush has perpetrated numerous travesties, no atrocities that I am aware of... So you'll admit travesties. Is not the deaths of 100,000-800,000 human beings atrocious? In my book (and many others) He is as bad as Sadam! If your son was killed in Iraq, maybe you'd understand. The only thing that even comes close to making sense about you is you are war profiteering and don't want to fess up to the responsibility of being a part of those deaths, otherwise you couldn't with a clear conscience say Bush is Great!
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
It's not just the U.S., unfortunately it's us too. The only country with the bollocks to not go to war with Iraq, was France. We should have followed suit, and maybe would have if we had a leader with some backbone.

I also call murdering 650,000 innocent men, women and children an atrocity. An atrocity not just perpetrated by the U.S.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
Dank', the passport thing is way off centre. His teeth were in tact too. I believe our governments knew of the attacks and instead of stopping them we let them continue.

We're either for the muslims or against, there is no middle ground. To keep muslims in our country is madness. The London bombers were all British born muslims, one was a teacher with a young family. No matter what a muslim says to your face, you know that deep, deep down that motherfucker would love nothing more than blowing you to bits.

Bullshit skunky, you have fallen for propaganda.
That isn't the majority of Muslims, actually it is a very small minority that want us dead. I would say about less than 5%.
Most Muslims want to be left alone to live ordanary, everyday lives. It is that small minority that makes the majority look bad....
 

battosai

Well-Known Member
what if this oil is techtonic plate grease? we're removing it, and earth quakes have been rising.. the earth becomes a lot like a engine without oil.

we could use hemp oils and fuels to stop us from pissing against the wind though.

but fuck that. then the billionares wouldnt have billions.

weed could help change the world if we let it.
 

medicineman

New Member
what if this oil is techtonic plate grease? we're removing it, and earth quakes have been rising.. the earth becomes a lot like a engine without oil.
Wow, never thought of that, could have some effect I guess!
 

medicineman

New Member
The only country with the bollocks to not go to war with Iraq, was France. You are so right. and then our government went bananas on France, changed the name of French fries to freedom fries~LOL~ how fucking pathetic was that? The press was instructed to do anti-French bullshit for a couple a weeks, the Fox news channel (Nazis), even longer! I've often entertained a desire to live in france, the southern part in the wine country, beautiful country. After all it was the french people that stormed the Bastille And beheaded the King, and Marie Antonette, or someone in charge. We need that kind of punishment today for our leaders, If they thought they were facing the guillotine, I'm pretty sure they would develop a whole new attitude!
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
Bullshit skunky, you have fallen for propaganda.
That isn't the majority of Muslims, actually it is a very small minority that want us dead. I would say about less than 5%.
Most Muslims want to be left alone to live ordanary, everyday lives. It is that small minority that makes the majority look bad....
Now look who's falling for propoganda. Let me tell you a little bit about the last school I went to... it was easily 80% muslim, the rest black and hindu, sikh etc. I was the only white kid in the class, I think there were 4 or 5 in the whole school. I have a lot of experience of muslims... sorry continue another time...

As i was saying, I have a lot of experience with muslims. They ALL believe that anybody that doesn't believe in Islam is worthy only of death. They ALL believe that women are of a lower class... so-called-normal muslim men will beat, torture, maim, and even kill their wives for the slightest transgressions... usually against, what the men define as, their honour. If you do a search on honour killings, don't just look for pakistan... check out England too. Only a couple of months ago a muslim set fire to his wife in the back of their shop. The alarm was raised by a customer, because while his wife was burning the muslim man continued to serve customers in his shop. The shop is no more than 500 yards from where I live.

I believe that all religion should be banned. Islam is about the worst, certainly the hardest to beat any sense into.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
maybe it's that way in england, but only a small minority in the US believe that way
hey man, they take the same book everywhere they go.

keep in mind that this stuff was written around the 6th century A.D., there were intercontinental "civilizations" occuring all around these people - unlike the era during which most of the Old Testament was written (500-3000B.C.) so this level of prescribed violence and intolerance should have extenquished itself early on...yet, it survived.




here's an online version: The Koran -- Simple Search

[3.28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
 

medicineman

New Member
hey man, they take the same book everywhere they go.
I'm asking this question: What is the solution? Do you think a religious war is the answer. They have been tried a thousand times and failed, why, because you can't force someone to change their religion. It's hard enough to get someone to change their political affiliations, Religion is even harder, especially if they are zealous, and a lot of Muslems are pretty entrenched in their beliefs. Do I think all Muslims want to kill infadels. Hell no, That would be insane. Do I believe there are some extremests who would cut my head off, hell yeah, but you can't condemn them all for their religious beliefs. Now on to the question: What is your solution "besides bombing them back to the stone age"?
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
Also bare in mind that those passages were written in responce to the Crusades. Historical context makes a lot of difference.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
Also bare in mind that those passages were written in responce to the Crusades. Historical context makes a lot of difference.
what are you talking about? Muhammad (the guy who dictated the whole book) was dead when the crusades started.


are you claiming that the koran contains content that was not revealed directly to Muhammad, ie; a book of Mormon for the Arabs which is perpetually adapted??
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
What is your solution "besides bombing them back to the stone age"?
ok, this is what i'd start off with..


1.a. control the iran/syrian border with a zero tolerance policy. use GPS and place mines along all porous areas, funnel ALL ground traffic through my checkpoints. these check points would be manned by Rangers and S.F. or Sgt. and up only, no 4 year college guys, career guys only. there would be forward observation areas, snipers and scouts watch the travelers on their way to the border and tag suspicious vehicles which are instructed to stop at an intervention area, exit the vehicle and enter a fortified area for questioning while search is conducted. ANY deviation from the orders given to travelers is responded to with deadly force.
large amounts of weapons, any deception, raw materials for weapons, insurgent intelligence are cause for detainment and a free trip to egypt for questioning.
1.b. instill patriotism and solicit more citizens for info on terrorists. plant the seed of hope with far more psyops involving far more citizens. create a greater flow of information through TV, papers, encourage streets/blocks to band together and reward social cohesiveness. platoon sized teams of infantry coupled with mechanized and air (grunts, tanks, helos, all of it) Marines would be scattered throughout violent areas and respond quickly and overwhelmingly to any violence.
2. bid out repair and upgrade of civilian water and power on a per project basis, not on a district or regional basis. right now this is bid out on a large scale, ie, central Iraq, not any more... oversight would come from local committees and governments who report to our civilian experts and Iraqi national gvnmnt weekly. this would allow more Iraq businesses and workers to work at their trade. set timelines and deadlines and harsh financial penalties for failures, rewards for success.
3. overhaul college education system and focus on agriculture, tech, business. oversaturate the pre-college education system with money to build schools, retain teachers.
4. enhance information infrastructure in all densely populated areas.

to do all this we would have to almost come to blows with S.A., UAE, Turkey, etc.. but we would have to bring them on board and get them to exert more influence/leadership.





that's what i would bring to the table for my most respected leaders to start with anyway... i'd have to know exactly how many we have, where they are, supply capability, etc.. lot's of stuff the news doesn't tell us but my priority would be to close borders and destroy every insurgent i could find.
 

medicineman

New Member
that's what i would bring to the table for my most respected leaders to start with anyway... i'd have to know exactly how many we have, where they are, supply capability, etc.. lot's of stuff the news doesn't tell us but my priority would be to close borders and destroy every insurgent i could find. Call him up, call Bush up and give him your plan, It sounds better than the one he has now. That might take care of the influx of insurgents, what about the civil war? What about things like happened today where they blew up a university and killed 75+. How many troops would it take to subdue 6 million people? It's a blood fued going on.IE: you killed my brother, I'll kill you, your cousin will kill me etc. You can't jump in on that and have success, Just look back at the Hatfields and the McCoys! We need to get the fuck out Now. Fuck Bushs' ego, Fuck the corporations, leave Iraq to the Iraqis! (common sense 1-A). Seriously dude, you have respect for our leaders, how fucking sad is that?
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
Very well thought out and logical post, 7xstall! I agree fully, and enthusiastically!
A lot of the strategy you outlined is good old common sense! Unfortunately Political Correctness opposes all application of simple logic and common sense.




my priority would be to close borders and destroy every insurgent i could find.
Simple and effective....We have to get serious about killing as many of these subhumans as possible.

Read this piece yesterday and thought I would share....

Terrorist Strategies Against The West And Other Democracies
By Walid Phares | January 15, 2007




During the year Future Jihad was published in America, significant developments further proved true the conclusions of the initial book. In one single year, before and after its publication a series of declarations by the Jihadists, by international leaders and by intellectuals on all sides of the conflict, signaled that the "War on Terrorism" was after all an all-out confrontation between a worldwide Web of Islamist movements and regimes on the one hand and a dispersed international community, some of which was engaged in this world war while, on the other hand, parts of it weren't
- My first objective was to explain basic facts to the international public community: that there was an ideological current out there, aiming at world domination, which is defined as "Jihadism." The whole of Jihadism comes from two trees, one is Salafi the other is Khomeinist. The Salafists, formed in the Sunni environment, are inspired by doctrines of the Middle Ages and have emerged in modern times as Wahhabis, the Muslim Brotherhood, Takfiris, Deobandis, Tablighi and others. They want the reestablishment of a modern day Caliphate. They feel they are the heirs of 14 centuries of history, and they reject modern international law. The Khomeinists are the Jihadists who emerged in the Shiia community. They aim at establishing an Imamate to reunify all Muslims under their guidance in pursuit of Jihad.

- The books' second objective was to show how Jihadists view the world, its modern history, its international relations, its wars, the various civilizations and how they adapt their strategies to modernity. Chapters three, seven, eight and nine were dedicated to show the readers how the Jihadists viewed the 20th century, WWII, the Cold War, the choices they made and the different options they developed as Salafists, Wahhabis, Khumeinists, regarding the Soviets, Israel, the West, and the Muslim regions. The bottom line was to show that there were no sheer emotional and simplistic reactions to crisis, but rather focused, integrated, and complex policies and strategic objectives. This assertion goes against the dominant theories of the past, which never went away yet, that in essence Islamist attitudes are created by Western policies.

Future Jihad precisely argues otherwise: Jihadi ideologies are sui generis. They were developed before current international relations were formalized in laws, survived the latter and have projected their aims regardless of Western or non-Western policies. Certainly, diplomatic, economic and military acts by greater and small powers impact the evolution, decisions and plans of the Islamists. Policies affect other policies, but Jihadism and its various trees and branches, is a being of its own. It relates to the evolution of political Islam historically and can only be explained from inside out.

- The third objective of the book was to describe the Jihadi war against the Soviet Union during the Cold War and against the United States and some of its allies after the cold war, leading to 9/11 and beyond.

- The fourth objective in producing Future Jihad was an attempt to analyze the specific conflict between al Qaida and the United States. In chapter twelve I examined the root causes of America's failure showing that the breaches were not simple security flaws but rather systemic malfunctioning at the national security level. In Chapter thirteen, I suggested a model of what could have been an historically successful Jihadist offensive worldwide and its consequences in the US, had a 9/11 of a greater dimension occurred years later instead.

- The fifth objective was to offer modest guidelines and prescriptions to face off with the growing dangers of Salafi and Khomeinist ideologically-based terrorism. While geopolitical threats to regional and world peace come from classical radical regimes, such as Tehran's and to a certain extent Damascus' and Khartoum's, another type of threat is represented by the capacity of Jihadi networks to transform moderate or stable Muslim Governments into radical ones, with a full use of their resources.

- Finally, I made another set of recommendations to educate the public, the Government's agencies and the media as to the mind, visions, strategies and if possible the tactics of the Jihadists, much like a prescription aimed at developing a "global resistance" against Jihad-Terrorism, both within the Arab Muslim world and within the international community.
I am glad to announce that the paperback version of Future Jihad: Terrorist Strategies against the West is now out in English and Spanish. Versions in other languages are expected in the near future.

The Jihadi Counter Offensive

During 2005-2006, I had several important opportunities to address and interact with policy, legislative, media, community decision makers, experts and concerned citizens across the US and Europe, including in Paris, London, Brussels, Vienna, and Lisbon. In America, my book tour allowed me to discuss Future Jihad in Washington, New York, New Jersey, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Miami and on many campuses nationwide. Since its launch, I have received many emails and messages from bright readers of the book as well as from viewers of and listeners of talk shows. These inputs were sociologically critical for the assessment of the public's understanding of the bigger picture.

I was also able to conduct briefings at the European Parliament, the US Congress, the United Nations Security Council, Interpol and other international bodies. In addition, my participation in Arab media forums including on al Jazeera, al Hurra, al Arabiya and other outlets provided me the opportunity to interact with ideologues, academics and activists from all sides, and particularly of relevance, the self-declared Jihadi camp. In addition, my interactions with democracy groups and intellectuals from the Arab and Muslim world on the one hand, and frequent visits to and learning process from the various Islamists - particularly Jihadist - chat rooms online, helped my analysis of Future Jihad refine itself and develop ballistics of knowledge in the clashing strategies of the so-called War on Terrorism.

My main post-book conclusion is as follows: The Jihadists are Salafists and Khumeinists alike - on a worldwide counter offensive with their perceived enemies, and they are planning on widening it, rationalizing it, and rendering it irreversible. Here are the various sketches from present situations into future trends:

In the paperback version of 2006, I discussed the specific issue of Bin Laden and al Qaeda and their importance in the global Jihadi movement; their centrality but also their relativity as well. One concept I noted, particularly the so-called Hudna (truce) proposed several times by the group, in large part to Europe. The Hudna is a main indicative of Jihadi geopolitics, often misunderstood in the West. Another concept I revisited is the worldwide web of Jihadism, stressing its ideological but also its political nature. While loose and full of fragments, I believe it has a centrality that escapes the classical perception of Western defense parameters.

Europe's Jihads

Following my several field trips to Europe and monitoring of Jihadi deployments on the continent I analyzed the global strategies of the Salafists in specific zones: the United Kingdom; Western European battlefields: Belgium, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Germany in addition to the southern European zone including Spain and Italy; finally France (which I consider as one zone by itself). Two other European zones are Eastern Europe and the Balkans, with different outlooks and geopolitical Jihadi realities. The European Jihads are ahead of their cross Atlantic parallels. The ideological mobilization that surfaced during the so called "Cartoons Jihad" is an important indicator of the wide spread of Wahhabi and Salafi teachings across the continent.

The World's Battlefields

Russia's battlefields with the Salafists have reached a national security level of threat, both from Chechnya and through its southern borders with Central Asia. The Asian battlefields have grown geometrically in intensity and scope: Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand, and Malaysia to the East; Bengla Desh, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan to the West; and Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan in the center. Asian Jihad is gradually including a Chinese Jihad in the old Muslim Sin Kiang and spills over to Australia south bound and to the Greater Middle East West bound. Australia is facing two threats: one regional to its north, linked to the success and advance of Salafi forces in Indonesia and the Philippines, and the other through domestic infiltration by radical Islamists, similar to the global patterns of penetration in the West. In Africa, the Jihadi battlefields are spreading rapidly from Somalia to Darfur all the way to the sub-Saharan countries of Chad, Mauritania, Ivory Coast and Nigeria.

The Greater Middle East.........

full article:
http://www.aim.org/guest_column/5158_0_6_0_C/
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
i said "my most respected leaders"... those would be the ones i put there since we're mentally masterbating about how to deal with this... my solution would prevent further escalation of the foreign manufactured civil war. remove the foreigners and sectarian violence would fade.

but yeah, i do have respect for those men and women who are now OUR leaders.

it's kind of like when someone who can't sing gets up and tries to sing...have to respect someone who tries because no one is perfect.

you'd def be in charge of the koolaid commision. :)
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
maybe it's that way in england, but only a small minority in the US believe that way
They say that over here too. There was an undercover report on tv last night, made by a well reputed tv station in this country. The investigation was into mosques... two mosques in particular that condemned (publicly) terrorist actions. However, an undercover investigator with a hidden camera went into the mosques to listen to the preaching.

They are preaching hate... and in my country they have their own faith schools (also the subject of a past investigation, where children as young as five were being filled with hate for our society). One of the comments the preacher made was something that I had heard a lot of growing up in that area... the belief that they are gaining ground on us... will soon crush our society. That is their eventuality (so they believe). Also, they are all too aware of their footholds in our countries. Their foothold in my country is immense, I don't know what it is like in yours.

To your face a muslim will always say they abhor terrorism; behind your back...
 
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