• Here is a link to the full explanation: https://rollitup.org/t/welcome-back-did-you-try-turning-it-off-and-on-again.1104810/

Obamacare, Climate Change Hoax, Cap and Trade - ALL DEAD!

DubsFan

Well-Known Member
First off, thank you guys for keeping this discussion on track with descending into the usual red vs blue stupidity. It's nice to be able to disagree without being disagreeable....

I agree that president mccain would have been a disaster and we would probably be much worse off. It's hard to say at this point, but I'm wondering whether romney would have been a better choice even if he is a tough pill to swallow for the religious right, being a mormon and all. But that's politics....

Weren't the mortgages underwritten by fannie and freddie, prime loans by definition? And I don't have any numbers to back this up, but my understanding was that there was very little delinquency and foreclosure with the loans underwritten by them before the bubble burst and that the problem came from loans by the unregulated sub-prime lenders that were bundled into what became the toxic assets that fucked up everyone's 401(k).

Don't you think regulation and more oversight of residential lending could have made up for the lack of common sense? There were obviously a lot of irresponsible practices going on the last 5-8 years....how do you prevent that without regulation? The fed with it's ridiculously low interest rates probably played a role too. I know very little about banking other than what I read in the newspaper, but I'm curious to hear what you think would have been the best way to avoid this whole mess. If I can give you a loan, then sell that loan to someone else and absolve myself of any risk associated with it, doesn't that encourage irresponsible lending?

And resin225, those aren't facts but political talking points. Again, fannie and freddie were self-sufficient, didn't cost the taxpayer a dime and the loans got payed back throughout the 1990s. The crisis was caused by irresponsible practices in the financial sector and a laissez-faire attitude on the part of the regulators, not by poor people getting advantageous housing loans and paying them back. Those are the facts and not many dispute them...

I would have voted for...gulp...Hillary if she got the nom vs McCain. Romney, as a Catholic was my choice.

FNMA did not really write subprime by definanition. But there underwriting at times was. Historically they average about 4% delinquency. I have no clue what it is today.

Here is my quick blurb on regulation. It only applies to O/O (owner occupied). NOO or Non Owner Occupied loans are loans borrowerd by investors and have far less compliance and regulatory stuff. But O/O loans are a bulk of what's be funded.

Also, in 2008 there was no new regulatory mandates yet. Are there any now? I'm not sure as I mainly am involved with Commercial paper. Anyway...no one was writing sub prime deals and selling them in the secondary market for one big reason. No one was buying the paper.

I hate to go back to supply and demand cause it's a little tired. But it's what I saw. Until someone is willing to buy the paper it won't get bought and subsequently not funded in the first place.

Right now in commercial lending, anything outside of a nice clean apartment loan (5+ units on up) the average leverage is in the 40-60% range. Not 70-75 or even 80% range like in the last cycle.

What really needs to change is who gets to be in this industry. Some states require no licensing and the states that do, like California...the Real Estate Sales Persons License test is a joke. The other license California offers is a brokers license. You need this to own a brokerage. That test was pretty tough. I don't think it should be that hard, but definately harder than the Salespersons exam. Some fail 4x and still get to retake the exame in like 30 days. Not that the material is educational, but your ability to pass the test shows where you are at mentally.
 

ViRedd

New Member
"What really needs to change is who gets to be in this industry. Some states require no licensing and the states that do, like California...the Real Estate Sales Persons License test is a joke. The other license California offers is a brokers license. You need this to own a brokerage. That test was pretty tough. I don't think it should be that hard, but definitely harder than the Salespersons exam. Some fail 4x and still get to retake the exame in like 30 days. Not that the material is educational, but your ability to pass the test shows where you are at mentally."

On the other hand, as someone who has been in the RE business longer than I want to admit, I'll say this: Some of the most successful people in the business are what one would consider upon initial observation, to be the most unlikely to succeed. They succeed because of hard work, perseverance and excellent ethics. I can't tell you how many "smart" people who made a small fortune over the past four years by slamming unqualified, low income people into homes they couldn't afford, have dropped out of the business. The rest of us remain to serve our client's best interests in an ethical manner.
 
Flash, new poll just out shows Obama at 44. Conventional wisdom is that below 40 and it is a rapid spiral down. Hope and Change = Hoax and Chains.
Oh! Thats classic!! "Hoaxs and Chains" !!!

The intelligent among us knew from the start what this 'card' was all about.

He is the worst commander n thief we've every had.
 
Obamacare, Climate Change Hoax, Cap and Trade - ALL DEAD!

True. Dying for sure. But still true in light of the substance of each ones foundation.

The wise Americans among us are learning about the foundations of each- what each one is built upon.
What the material (fact based information) consists of. They are not stupid- but learning. And this is good.

Fools on the other hand think 'the foundations' are all solid and will stand the test of time; never taking into account the substance of their beliefs or the foundations their opinions are based upon dispite the house of cards falling down all around them.

Fools hate knowledge and, even more, despise reproof.
 

DubsFan

Well-Known Member
"What really needs to change is who gets to be in this industry. Some states require no licensing and the states that do, like California...the Real Estate Sales Persons License test is a joke. The other license California offers is a brokers license. You need this to own a brokerage. That test was pretty tough. I don't think it should be that hard, but definitely harder than the Salespersons exam. Some fail 4x and still get to retake the exame in like 30 days. Not that the material is educational, but your ability to pass the test shows where you are at mentally."

On the other hand, as someone who has been in the RE business longer than I want to admit, I'll say this: Some of the most successful people in the business are what one would consider upon initial observation, to be the most unlikely to succeed. They succeed because of hard work, perseverance and excellent ethics. I can't tell you how many "smart" people who made a small fortune over the past four years by slamming unqualified, low income people into homes they couldn't afford, have dropped out of the business. The rest of us remain to serve our client's best interests in an ethical manner.
Well said.
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
It appears that some iteration of Obamacare is going to be rammed thru.
The far left is apoplectic. But will they really want to embarrass their guy???
This odious "reform" is nothing less than a destructive misguided reeking pile of dung.
It most assuredly will not be deficit neutral.
A disgraceful sham.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
world leaders like to be chauffered around in secured vehicles. bullet-proof windows, armor-plated doors, things of that nature...

how many hybrid models for these types of cars are available?? 0

keep trying ....
The VAST majority of all of the cars provided are not bullet proof. keep talking off the top of ur head, it reinforces ur reputation here.

BS!!!!! Try again.....
 

DubsFan

Well-Known Member
The VAST majority of all of the cars provided are not bullet proof. keep talking off the top of ur head, it reinforces ur reputation here.

BS!!!!! Try again.....

The Pope rolled around in a BP box. Lets build all these guys a BP box and stack in truck like goats :mrgreen:
 

DubsFan

Well-Known Member
Pope is fearful of death ... now that is comical. Where's the belief!!!

Oh don't start CJ.

Even the Pope is human. He does die when shot. Being Faithful doesn't make you immune to bullets.

Have you heard the story of the man who refused to leave the rooftop of his home while his town flooded?

He was waiting for God to save him from rising waters. 1st rescue boat "sir we are here to bring you to safety" NO, I'm waiting for God to save me. 2nd rescue boat "sir we are here bring you to safety" No, I'm waiting for God. The third boat came and left as well.

He died. When sitting in front of God he asked him "why didn't you come to save me." God replied "I sent three boats!"

Faith is fine. Stupidity is not.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
He may die ... he will die.

Again, what does he fear? G*D's will? Isn't it G*D's will if he's shot?

Trying to thwart the plan? :lol:

Where's the faith brother Pope ... where's the faith.

Nice distraction but the limos being used are not bullet proof. Some of course are, but they are usually not up for rental. They are already procured and owned by respective govt's and host countries.

The Copenhagen conference is a FARCE!!!!!

If Obama falls for this one, the rest of the doubters on the fence will leave him forever. Rightfully so.

He's supposed to improve our condition, not deteriorate it.

Some one send him a "post it". He needs a reminder.

He needs a tutor!!!
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
I tend to think that crap and tax is DOA.
The Copenhagen fiasco has driven a stake through it's evil heart

I am now thinking that short of a fourth down hail Mary...Obamacare may indeed be stillborn.

Quite a spectacle. Tremendous theater of the absurd, Popcorn anyone?
:mrgreen:


In a stunning reversal of fortune for President Barack Obama, top progressives are attacking the health-reform plan moving through the Senate as “hollow,” “unsupportable” and a sellout to corporate interests.

Liberals contend that the bill has been watered down so much that Congress should kill it and start over. The White House warns that health reform could be doomed for the rest of this presidency, and probably beyond, if it falters now.

The attack from the left comes at a delicate juncture when a delay of more than a couple of days could sink any remaining chance that the Senate can pass it by Christmas. Senate Democrats are circulating a possible schedule that would have them taking the final vote on Christmas Day.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30737.html
 

DubsFan

Well-Known Member
You know it's bad when Kieth Olberman starts calling out the left and Obama. Last night he said "if Obama doesn't make some serious changes he will inherit the wind." This from Olberman clearly shows the party is already frustrated with the guy.

He will literally have to be Jesus Christ (I know it hurts some of you to know he's not) and rise from the dead.
 
Like spoiled brat children- they won't take NO for an answer!

The Senate’s Christmas Gift
December 21, 2009 posted for Bobby

Senate Democrats are working overtime to get an Obamacare bill passed before Christmas. They no longer even pretend to be doing it to reform healthcare. Now they’re just doing whatever it takes to get a bill passed, even if it costs somewhere between $848 billion and $2.1 trillion, depending on which math you use.

Never mind that the Realclearpolitics.com average of polls shows that Americans oppose the Democrat’s healthcare bill by a 54.2 percent to 39.7 percent margin. Democrats have gone all in, as the saying goes, and nothing is going to stop them.

As an unnamed Democratic strategist told Byron York of The Washington Examiner, “Once you’ve gone this far, what is the cost of failure?”

Comparing Democrats to bank robbers—how appropriate—who have gone past the point of no return, the strategist said, “They’re in the bank, they’ve got their guns out. They can run outside with no money, or they can stick it out, go through the gunfight, and get away with the money.”

Of course, money is what it’s all about. Not saving it mind you, but stealing yours.

Sen. Dick Durbin (D.-Ill.) told The Hill that Democrats will have the 60 votes needed to pass a bill this week. They’re buying off reluctant Democrats left and right.

For Louisiana Sen. Mary Landrieu the price was $300 million in federal aid to her state. As columnist Charles Krauthammer said on Fox News, if Landrieu got $300 million, Sen. Ben Nelson (D.-Neb.)—said to be holding out for removal of a provision in the bill that allows federal funding to pay for abortions—gets a Caribbean island, or two. Or, if some news reports are correct, a threat to close a military base in his state if he doesn’t join in.

Sen. Joe Lieberman (I.-Conn.) is back on board. We don’t yet know what he got in return, aside from a lot of face time on television. In an effort to get one or more Republicans to sign on so the bill can be cast as bi-partisan, Maine Republican Senators Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe are being courted as well. Look for Maine to get a bundle of cash for snow plows or something.

Meanwhile, Joe and Jane Citizen only get dunned. If you are a family with an annual income above $88,200 and your employer doesn’t provide coverage, prepare to fork out $15,200 a year for a federally-mandated insurance fee, according to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) as reported by CNSNews.com. And few employers are going to provide coverage for their employees once the plan kicks in.

Why? There is an incentive not to. If employers don’t pay their share of their employees’ premiums they’ll have to pay $750 per employee fine. That’s much less than the employer contribution on a complete health plan.

What’s more, there are tax increases in the bill. Lots of them. According to the Heritage Foundation, Medicare taxes increase from 2.9 percent to 3.4 percent, the top marginal tax rate goes from 35 percent to 39.6 percent and, in the House version of the bill, a surtax of 5.4 percent is put on incomes above $500,000.

Following is a list from the Heritage Foundation of other tax increases currently in either the House or Senate bill or proposed by the Barack Obama administration to “pay” for healthcare reform:
An excise tax on high-cost "Cadillac" health insurance plans that cost more than $8,500 a year for individuals or $23,000 for families.
An excise tax on medical devices such as wheelchairs, breast pumps and syringes used by diabetics for insulin injections.
A cap on the exclusion of employer-provided health insurance without offsetting tax cuts.
A limit on itemized deductions for taxpayers with a top income tax rate greater than 28 percent.
A windfall profits tax on health insurance companies.
A value-added tax, which would tax the value added to a product at each stage of production.
An excise tax on sugar-sweetened beverages including non-diet soda and sports drinks.
Higher taxes on alcoholic beverages including beer, wine and spirits.
A limit on contributions to health savings accounts.
An 8 percent tax on all wages paid by employers that do not provide their employees health insurance that satisfies the requirements defined by the Secretary of Health and Human Services.
A limit on contributions to flexible spending arrangements.
Elimination of the deduction for expenses associated with Medicare Part D subsidies.
An increase in taxes on international businesses.
Elimination of the tax credits paper companies take for biofuels they create in their production process—the so-called “Black Liquor credit.”
Fees on insured and self-insured health plans.
A limit or repeal of the itemized deduction for medical expenses.
A limit on the Qualified Medical Expense definition.
An increase in the payroll taxes on students.
An extension of the Medicare payroll tax to all state and local government employees.
An increase in taxes on hospitals.
An increase in the estate tax.
Increased efforts to close the mythical “tax gap.”
A 5 percent tax on cosmetic surgery and similar procedures such as Botox treatments, tummy tucks and face lifts.
A tax on drug companies.
An increase in the corporate tax on providers of health insurance.
A $500,000 deduction limitation for the compensation paid by health insurance companies to their officers, employees and directors.

And the kicker is the taxes go into effect immediately after Obama signs the bill. The healthcare benefits don’t start until 2014.

All the taxes are designed to confiscate the wealth of Mr. and Mrs. Citizen and drive them into a public option—even as Senate Democrats say the bill doesn’t include one, yet.

On Dec. 16 the president went on television and said if Congress doesn’t pass a healthcare bill the Federal government will go bankrupt. Poppycock. If a healthcare bill is passed it’s Mr. and Mrs. Citizen that go belly up.

The spend-and-tax policies of Obama and the Democrats—stimulus bills, TARP bill, healthcare bill, etc.—are what is pushing us toward economic collapse.

Face it. The healthcare reform plan Democrats are ramming through is nothing more than the greatest transfer of wealth and most massive power grab in the history of the world.

Frankly, I don’t consider that much of a Christmas present.
 

abe23

Active Member
You know it's bad when Kieth Olberman starts calling out the left and Obama. Last night he said "if Obama doesn't make some serious changes he will inherit the wind." This from Olberman clearly shows the party is already frustrated with the guy.

He will literally have to be Jesus Christ (I know it hurts some of you to know he's not) and rise from the dead.
I think olberman is a douche, but he's right sometimes and here he's got a point.

The senate bill is a piece of shit that might actually make things worse. Individual mandates without a public option is a handout to the insurance companies and if obama signs that kind of thing into law, I'll be pissed at him as well...
 
I

Illegal Smile

Guest
I think olberman is a douche, but he's right sometimes and here he's got a point.

The senate bill is a piece of shit that might actually make things worse. Individual mandates without a public option is a handout to the insurance companies and if obama signs that kind of thing into law, I'll be pissed at him as well...
"If" he signs it, LOL. He has sold what sorry excuse for a soul he had to get it.
 

fdd2blk

Well-Known Member
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul


WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama cheered a crucial health care vote in the Senate on Monday that put historic legislation well on its way to pre-Christmas passage and which sharpened already edgy partisan tensions. The middle-of-the-night vote, which knocked away Republican attempts at procedural delays, required all 58 Democrats and the Senate's two independents to hold together. The next vote is expected around 7:20 a.m. Tuesday.
 

DubsFan

Well-Known Member
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul


WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama cheered a crucial health care vote in the Senate on Monday that put historic legislation well on its way to pre-Christmas passage and which sharpened already edgy partisan tensions. The middle-of-the-night vote, which knocked away Republican attempts at procedural delays, required all 58 Democrats and the Senate's two independents to hold together. The next vote is expected around 7:20 a.m. Tuesday.
Here we go.

All this to aid an estimate 40mil citizens. Half of which probably fit into another program already. Why all this for 10-15% of the population???

Again, I would rather pay more taxes to insure these people immediately than do this kind of "reform." This is not reform.
 

abe23

Active Member
Here we go.

All this to aid an estimate 40mil citizens. Half of which probably fit into another program already. Why all this for 10-15% of the population???

Again, I would rather pay more taxes to insure these people immediately than do this kind of "reform." This is not reform.
Because we pay for those 10-15% of the population's healthcare when we go to the emergency room. It would be cheaper to insure them.

Everyone should have the option of buying into medicare and insurance companies should be non-profit intermediaries as far as I'm concerned. Nobody should be denied treatment they need, it's that simple.
 

DubsFan

Well-Known Member
Because we pay for those 10-15% of the population's healthcare when we go to the emergency room. It would be cheaper to insure them.

Everyone should have the option of buying into medicare and insurance companies should be non-profit intermediaries as far as I'm concerned. Nobody should be denied treatment they need, it's that simple.
Yes it would be cheaper to insure them. I agree with that. The question is how. The easiest and what appears to be the most economically prudent would be to increase taxes to pay for these people.

Since when do insurance companies have to be non profit? FYI- I've been on the board of two non profits. They have nothing to do with saving anyone money. What's the easiest way to "not show a profit." The easiest is to just give everyone a raise. The next easiest, which can be done in conjunction with bonuses is for the entity to do a retirement contribution for its employees. The entity/institution, making a pension contribution to employee retirement account give that institution a nice deduction and the recipient of that contribution does not pay income tax on it.

The word non profit makes everyone warm and fuzzy. There is nothing "non profit" about Non Profits. Ask Jesse Jackson.

One of the biggest problems with health care are the government programs. Everyone should be able to buy into Medicare? That's a pretty broad based idea.

You realize the elderly are the ones who will be hurt by every person who gets to receive Medicare early. The elderly cannot take care of themselves at all. They usually cannot work and at there ages should have to. Why someone age 55 who is unemployed should be able to qualify for Medicare is beyond me. The elderly deserve that benefit more than some dude who has fallen on hard times.

Non Profits and Medicare is your answer? You're starting to sound like congress. Currently nobody is denied treatment. Absolutely nobody.

Hospitals are more of a utility now then a place of purchased service. They are like a water fountain in a park.
 
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