Who's on the right VS who's on the left

Who is right and who is left


  • Total voters
    53
  • Poll closed .

medicineman

New Member
There are many, many, many, different sub-groups to both the "left" and the "right".

First, let's start with where the use of the term "left" in polity vocabulary comes from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics
"In politics, left-wing, political left, leftist and the Left are terms used to describe support for changing traditional social orders and creating a more egalitarian distribution of wealth and privilege. The phrase left-wing was coined during the French Revolution, referring to the seating arrangement in parliament; those who sat on the left supported the republic, the popular political movements and secularization."

It is generally understood among progressives and radicals that the left represented a break from tradition - a defiant stand against the existing social order which at the time was rife with hierarchy, privilege, exploitation, and fairly unpleasant state oppression of the poor.

Since then, the term has come to mean pretty much anyone who challenges the existing social order in an effort to attain what they believe to be "social justice" by minimizing or eliminating social inequalities which are the lack of rights (such as property, legal, voting, freedom of speech and assembly), access to education, health care, etc for any kind of group but mostly including ethnic minorities, women, queer and transgendered people, and so on and so forth.

Now, the waters are a little more murky. Nationalists like pro-fascist nazis are generally regarded as being on the right because they are seen as standing up for a social order that has oppressed ethnic minorities since it was profitable to do so. This however does not mean that all nationalist movements have been racist. I just can't find a single white nationalist movement that wasn't. The Mexican revolution was nationalist but it was heavily influenced by lefty authors and organizers from anarchism like Zapata who was elected to lead a peasant army.

But that is the far right - the tinfoil right. Next to them are people like Alex Jones and Ron Paul who are slightly less racist and weird. Somewhere in between them and the Nazis are anti-immigrant white supremacists like those dudes in Az. that carry guns around the border.

Slightly just next to them are Republicans. There are two types of Republicans. Politicians and voters. Politicians lie to the voters so that the voters will tolerate the growing corpocracy, imperialism, Capitalism, GMO frankenfood, totalitarian anti-citizen spy programs, torture, destruction of our natural resources, drug criminalization, rising unemployment due to globalization, private prison industry and more fun stuff.

Slightly just next to them are Democrats. There are two types of Democrats. Politicians and voters. Politicians lie to the voters so that the voters will tolerate the growing corpocracy, imperialism, Capitalism, GMO frankenfood, totalitarian anti-citizen spy programs, torture, destruction of our natural resources, drug criminalization, rising unemployment due to globalization, private prison industry and more fun stuff.

See what I did there?

Libertarian Party members are usually about reduced government, personal freedom, and free market capitalism. I get along with them most of the time except for the free market capitalism and permitted existence of a federal government. BTW - Capitalism is not the only market economy and everything you love about market economies is perverted and contorted under Capitalism to maintain the anti-freedom corpocracy. Fuck monopolies.

Also I want to make it abundantly clear that every president who ever lived and presided over the USA has been a genocidal misogynist and generally a very bad person. From Washington to Obama, every one of them has been complicit in genocide (which is unjustifiable and perhaps the most egregious human rights abuse) and class war against the poor. All of them further sold us out to wealthy companies and businessmen.

Somehow we were convinced that democracy, the highest form of government and polity, a beacon of egalitarian decision making, meant electing people to make decisions for us. It even happened in Russia to people who believed in the promising message of the new socialism ala Marx and Lenin. Somehow the people affected by decisions lost the ability to make them and a ruling class emerged in Russia, whereas one had already been established in America. To this day we still believe foolish prattle that this is a free country - all the while decisions about what we eat, watch, read, listen to, who we love and how, the work we do and the pay we get (or don't get), and so much more are being made for us. The claim is that we are able to elect people who represent us, however an overwhelming majority of wealthy people in the state and federal governments clearly indicates we are not represented considering how many people are below or at the poverty level in this country.

So what is the alternative? Only direct democracy. But what kind and who has the right one? There are some good ideas out there I feel. I am a social anarchist and I favor anarcho-communism, which is not so much a system itself but a philosophy which has guided the creation of egalitarian radically democratic systems like anarcho-syndicalism, participatory economics, and more. I distrust market economies because they all remind me too much of Capitalism but I wouldn't mind participating in anarcho-mutualist economies if one near me had goods I needed or services required that I could provide. Anarcho-mutualism seems like the most libertarian and yet socialist economic system that any fan of markets could come to embrace.

So I guess I'm lefty. But I should point out that there is a term worth searching called "Post-Left Anarchism". I don't know how I feel about it to be honest. I like some things some post-leftists have said, such as Bob Black. But not everything I agree with. Such is life and the diversity of minds, right?

I believe that communism, like love and respect, is not something that can be imposed from the top down. I believe it is something that must be constructed from the bottom up and that any amount of coercion, domination, or exploitation is a sad perversion of communist ideals. I believe we should be free to determine who with, what and how much to share. I also believe that commodities have innate attributes which lend them to certain economies more than others. For instance I believe that the gift economy model of Open Source Software makes a lot of sense because of the ease with which such information is added to and distributed. While at the same time I feel consumables may be appropriately traded on a mutualist market place or distributed via syndicalism or participatory economics. I reject intellectual property rights, favor use based land economies, totally support worker self management, community-based direct democracy, pervasive and ubiquitous community and personal sustainable organic gardening, and complete personal freedom which does not mean the freedom to oppress, dominate, coerce, or exploit anyone. So for instance, society should tolerate marijuana use but not rape. Using marijuana doesn't coerce anyone into doing something they don't want to, nor does it exploit them.

Anyone looking to find out more about anarchism can look at the FAQ which does a good job of criticizing both left and right-wing political ideas while presenting a clear and concise definition, survey, and case for anarchism. It also has an interesting article about how justice would be approached in an anti-authoritarian society; section I5 I think. http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html

If you'd like more info than that, like about what forms of decision making, organization, and economics anarchists support you can PM me for links.
I have a great compassion for your views. It's just that knowing a bit about "Human Nature", this seems almost impossible at this time, no let me rephrase that, it seems completely impossible. The concieved notion of communism at this point in time in this country is slightly less than in the '50's when it was a "hang-em high" solution. Sharing is considered off the table in this forum, it is exactly the opposite of what these righties believe. This seems to be a Mine, mine, mine, forum, don't try and take anything from me!!! Anarchism pretty much says "the Bullys will rule", like in the school yard, the bullies ruled supreme. With the completely violent nature of gangs, we'd be at their mercy. There would be blood on the streets like never seen before. So, anarchism is out. I don't have a plan, but it is pretty plain to see, Capitalism is on the way out, America as a world power is on the way out. All the great world powers have risen and fallen, and we are headed for a fall. Greed kills the pigs. I probably won't live long enough to see what happens next, unless the 2012 theory is true, But I don't see capitalism lasting more than another 50 years.
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
I have a great compassion for your views. It's just that knowing a bit about "Human Nature", this seems almost impossible at this time, no let me rephrase that, it seems completely impossible. The concieved notion of communism at this point in time in this country is slightly less than in the '50's when it was a "hang-em high" solution. Sharing is considered off the table in this forum, it is exactly the opposite of what these righties believe. This seems to be a Mine, mine, mine, forum, don't try and take anything from me!!! Anarchism pretty much says "the Bullys will rule", like in the school yard, the bullies ruled supreme. With the completely violent nature of gangs, we'd be at their mercy. There would be blood on the streets like never seen before. So, anarchism is out. I don't have a plan, but it is pretty plain to see, Capitalism is on the way out, America as a world power is on the way out. All the great world powers have risen and fallen, and we are headed for a fall. Greed kills the pigs. I probably won't live long enough to see what happens next, unless the 2012 theory is true, But I don't see capitalism lasting more than another 50 years.
I agree that capitalism is dead - a thing of the past. It brings out the worst vice in man. Now don't get me wrong, hard work and all that jazz are virtues in my book, but hard work gets most people no where in this country. The greed, the hegemony, the subordination, the cheating, the lying - this is the result of capitalism. In a world where only the strong survive, the strong will design a system to keep people weak and thrive on it. So it's no longer the strong surviving due to their strength. It's the strong surviving because of the weak and unfair state that we're all born into. Our country is easily as enslaving and unjust as many of these countries being touted as evil. The people here who support capitalism so strongly are the few reaping the benefits. Most are not.

Remember, the biggest trick the rich ever played on the middle classes was to get them to blame the poor for their problems. The middle class is stuck and instead of laying blame on the rich for an unfair system, they blame the poor. They say things like "well I'm not rich because I have to pay taxes to help support all these damn welfare minorities" when it's the furthest from the truth. They're no rich because the rich have designed a system to enslave through debt. I grew up in a house surrounded with debt, attained great debt to finish all my degrees, and hated the fact that the only way to better myself was to go into debt. It's sickening. And now that I'm out of debt and make a lot of money, I'm still sickened. It's commonly accepted that the only way to better oneself is to go to college. Why is it that in order to do this, one must accrue debt? The average students has $40,000 dollars in debt by the time (s)he graduates. Enslavement! A product of capitalism, where the strong were allowed to prey and trap. Well, capitalism is dying and the world is evening out. I'd rather a whole world of middle class rather than a world where the disparity between rich and poor is so destructive and absolute.

My two cents...flame on:fire:.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Through all your high handed speech, you have accepted one reality: You are a libertarian. Now correct me if I'm wrong, But aren't libertarians just one notch past Atilla the hun to the right?


You're wrong, but that's not surprising. Attila the Hun was a Monarch, and a butcher, and instead of being to the right, he would be properly placed on the left. He wasn't attempting to ensure the continued place of society but to destroy it, and transform it, much like all Socialists and Fascists are inclined to attempt.

He was not interested in the concerns of the people he was stealing from, but only his concerns, and perhaps his tribe's. The nations that he attacked represented the rule of law, the constructive efforts of society, and centuries of progress. The very same things that those on the left consistently decry as being unnatural.

Though as far as comparisons, it would be inaccurate to compare Attila to Hitler, Mao, or Stalin, in that Attila was not interested in politics, but in conquest. Actually, perhaps in that case he would compare more to the international socialists who believed (quite irrationally) that Socialism must conquer the world by force.

That chain of thought would put him solidly to the left, perhaps even to the left of Stalin and Hitler.
Accept the fact that there is definently a left and a right. conservative and liberal, Only many shades of gray to confuse the participants, but in the end, one is either left leaning or right leaning,
Actually that's not true, Enslaver. There's also an up and a down (Individualism vs Statism) and perhaps even a forward and a backward axis that could be placed with other things.

The left-right spectrum ignores many aspects of politics and assumes that Hitler (a Statist and a Socialist) belongs on the right, when his contemporaries (Stalin, Mao, Palpot) belong on the left. This comparison fails to be consistent in how it treats Statists by separating them artificially.

It also ignores the fact that there are differences between Liberals (who want more freedom) and Liberals (Socialists) who want the government to be their caretaker. It ignores that there are Conservatives who have the same view of the role for government as being the protector or champion of religion and having to force individuals to not act immorally outside of the common agreement of not murdering, raping, stealing, defrauding, or cheating. There are of course those on the right (Libertarians or Classic Liberals) that desire more freedom from the immorally based power of the State.

In short you have to have two axes for any political comparison.

On the first, you have the degrees of economic freedom desired (Left being more restrictive in its attempts to create an artificially eglitarian society that has not existed since man started farming) and on the vertical access the degree of personal freedom desired (Going up is typically portrayed as being for more government control, but I would actually put this towards the negative Y axis, not the positive, and instead put Libertarianism (Individualism/Self Governance) towards the top of the Y Axis. On the back and forward (3rd Axis) I supposed would be political freedom, that is, do people elect their representatives, or do they suffer from the unnatural forms of Monarchy and Inheritance of Rule under the absurd concepts of Divine Right of Kings/Rulers, with increasing freedom coming towards the front of the axis and decreasing freedom going towards the back.

Thus you end up with three axes representing economic, political and personal freedom.

and you my friend are definently tilted to the right. You can definently stop with the ass-umption that you are educating me. I'm beyond brainwashing and being corrected like a little schoolboy.
I do believe it beats being tilted towards the unnatural ideals of trying to create an egalitarian society that can not exist with any modern invention that serves to benefit man. The last eglatarian society died out with the invention of agriculture, and the vanishing of hunter-gathering.
 

medicineman

New Member
You're wrong, but that's not surprising. Attila the Hun was a Monarch, and a butcher, and instead of being to the right, he would be properly placed on the left. He wasn't attempting to ensure the continued place of society but to destroy it, and transform it, much like all Socialists and Fascists are inclined to attempt.

He was not interested in the concerns of the people he was stealing from, but only his concerns, and perhaps his tribe's. The nations that he attacked represented the rule of law, the constructive efforts of society, and centuries of progress. The very same things that those on the left consistently decry as being unnatural.

Though as far as comparisons, it would be inaccurate to compare Attila to Hitler, Mao, or Stalin, in that Attila was not interested in politics, but in conquest. Actually, perhaps in that case he would compare more to the international socialists who believed (quite irrationally) that Socialism must conquer the world by force.

That chain of thought would put him solidly to the left, perhaps even to the left of Stalin and Hitler.


Actually that's not true, Enslaver. There's also an up and a down (Individualism vs Statism) and perhaps even a forward and a backward axis that could be placed with other things.

The left-right spectrum ignores many aspects of politics and assumes that Hitler (a Statist and a Socialist) belongs on the right, when his contemporaries (Stalin, Mao, Palpot) belong on the left. This comparison fails to be consistent in how it treats Statists by separating them artificially.

It also ignores the fact that there are differences between Liberals (who want more freedom) and Liberals (Socialists) who want the government to be their caretaker. It ignores that there are Conservatives who have the same view of the role for government as being the protector or champion of religion and having to force individuals to not act immorally outside of the common agreement of not murdering, raping, stealing, defrauding, or cheating. There are of course those on the right (Libertarians or Classic Liberals) that desire more freedom from the immorally based power of the State.

In short you have to have two axes for any political comparison.

On the first, you have the degrees of economic freedom desired (Left being more restrictive in its attempts to create an artificially eglitarian society that has not existed since man started farming) and on the vertical access the degree of personal freedom desired (Going up is typically portrayed as being for more government control, but I would actually put this towards the negative Y axis, not the positive, and instead put Libertarianism (Individualism/Self Governance) towards the top of the Y Axis. On the back and forward (3rd Axis) I supposed would be political freedom, that is, do people elect their representatives, or do they suffer from the unnatural forms of Monarchy and Inheritance of Rule under the absurd concepts of Divine Right of Kings/Rulers, with increasing freedom coming towards the front of the axis and decreasing freedom going towards the back.

Thus you end up with three axes representing economic, political and personal freedom.



I do believe it beats being tilted towards the unnatural ideals of trying to create an egalitarian society that can not exist with any modern invention that serves to benefit man. The last eglatarian society died out with the invention of agriculture, and the vanishing of hunter-gathering.
It seems to me that you just like to argue, even when you're wrong. Arguing with a brick leads to nothing of interest. Since I don't like arguing, especially with one so opinionated, You can assume you are right and I am wrong. This will, in all actuality, have no bearing on me or my Ideas, but may serve to make you feel better about yourself. Have a wonderful day.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
Were you gazing into a mirror as you composed this?
It seems to me that you just like to argue, even when you're wrong. Arguing with a brick leads to nothing of interest. Since I don't like arguing, especially with one so opinionated, You can assume you are right and I am wrong. This will, in all actuality, have no bearing on me or my Ideas, but may serve to make you feel better about yourself. Have a wonderful day.
 

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Gropotkin

Member
Actually Post-Left Anarchism attempts to step above both left and right. Post-Leftists argue that anarchism has been weakened by its association with contrary leftist politics such as the early alliances anarchists and Bolsheviks had (which ultimately led to the Bolsheviks betraying the russian anarchists, killing a bunch of them and brutally suppressing anarchist populations in the Ukraine).

Some things I strongly agree with post-leftists on and some things I disagree with them or are unsure how I feel about them.
 

Gropotkin

Member
Why do you say anarchism is out? Anarchists have gone to a great deal of trouble in trying to innovate decision making processes like Consensus ( Consensus: A New Handbook for Grassroots Social, Political, and Environmental Groups. Tucson: See Sharp Press. ISBN 1884365396 ) and socially just economic systems like Participatory Economics ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_economics ).

We don't have to let the bullies rule and many anarchist communities have bravely resisted tyranny for admirably long amounts of time. The Spanish Civil War is a great example of what a nation of anarchists can do when every imperialist capitalist power in the world supports a counter-revolution. Nestor Mahkno and the russian anarchists dashed around Russia fighting both the authoritarian Bolsheviks Red army and the White army (loyal to the tsar, funded by imperialists, bigger and better equipped than the Black (anarchist) and Red (Bolshevik) armies). In South Africa anarchists living in shanti towns have resisted the illegal militant gentrification (think Caterpillars and guns) of the only place they have to live.

Anti-authoritarianism does not mean a lack of organization - it only means without coercion, domination, and exploitation (but not without self defense).

Anarchism is the only idea that is truly anti-bully because it is anti-all bullies. This includes formal bullies and informal bullies. Anarchists also believe that it is useless to build a party when what we need to be building is infrastructure that allows us self-reliance, independence, and self-determination. Anarchists have been feeding the poor, defending the indigenous, teaching the illiterate to make subsistence gardens, resisting brutal state repression, educating women on self-defense, providing healthcare, and organizing unions for longer than any other socialist ideology or party.

Research it more carefully before you dismiss it so quickly.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
I agree that capitalism is dead - a thing of the past. It brings out the worst vice in man. Now don't get me wrong, hard work and all that jazz are virtues in my book, but hard work gets most people no where in this country. The greed, the hegemony, the subordination, the cheating, the lying - this is the result of capitalism. In a world where only the strong survive, the strong will design a system to keep people weak and thrive on it. So it's no longer the strong surviving due to their strength. It's the strong surviving because of the weak and unfair state that we're all born into. Our country is easily as enslaving and unjust as many of these countries being touted as evil. The people here who support capitalism so strongly are the few reaping the benefits. Most are not.

Remember, the biggest trick the rich ever played on the middle classes was to get them to blame the poor for their problems. The middle class is stuck and instead of laying blame on the rich for an unfair system, they blame the poor. They say things like "well I'm not rich because I have to pay taxes to help support all these damn welfare minorities" when it's the furthest from the truth. They're no rich because the rich have designed a system to enslave through debt. I grew up in a house surrounded with debt, attained great debt to finish all my degrees, and hated the fact that the only way to better myself was to go into debt. It's sickening. And now that I'm out of debt and make a lot of money, I'm still sickened. It's commonly accepted that the only way to better oneself is to go to college. Why is it that in order to do this, one must accrue debt? The average students has $40,000 dollars in debt by the time (s)he graduates. Enslavement! A product of capitalism, where the strong were allowed to prey and trap. Well, capitalism is dying and the world is evening out. I'd rather a whole world of middle class rather than a world where the disparity between rich and poor is so destructive and absolute.

My two cents...flame on:fire:.

Now you are really showing your naivete....
 

Gropotkin

Member
I have a great compassion for your views. It's just that knowing a bit about "Human Nature", this seems almost impossible at this time, no let me rephrase that, it seems completely impossible.
I direct you to the quote by Emma Goldman in my sig. Also, I like what the FAQ has to say about human nature:
http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secA2.html#seca215

here's the lead-in, but be sure to read the whole section
"Anarchists, far from ignoring "human nature," have the only political theory that gives this concept deep thought and reflection. Too often, "human nature" is flung up as the last line of defence in an argument against anarchism, because it is thought to be beyond reply. This is not the case, however. "

:hug:
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
Well, he's a Socialist. What did you expect?
Keep it coming. Just insult everyone on here and then you can be the smartest of them all!!! Sometimes I wonder how shitty your lives are considering you derive happiness from insulting others on the INTERNET in order to compensate for your life's inadequacies.
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
dang it...ur right. I forgot. The goal is equal mediocrity... mmmm...nice and fuzzy all over...
I'd take equal mediocrity over the divide we have today. 15% owns 85% of the wealth in America, so I think I speak for millions of others with my aforementioned statement. Equal mediocrity sounds quite nice my friend. 85% of Americans would benefit from an equaling out.

Oh yeah, I forgot that the rich EARNED what they have and therefore, it's wrong to take it. They EARNED it. HA! Stolen land from Indians. Stolen profit from slavery. These are the foundations of our system. Rooted in evil and corrupted by evil. Earned my ass!

But at least we can understand why you believe what you do. Seeing as how you're always bragging about how RICH you are (throwing hundreds on the floor to entice women), you would have something to lose if we reached an egalitarian state.
 

fdd2blk

Well-Known Member
Keep it coming. Just insult everyone on here and then you can be the smartest of them all!!! Sometimes I wonder how shitty your lives are considering you derive happiness from insulting others on the INTERNET in order to compensate for your life's inadequacies.
the tank on my seadoo holds 15 gallons. i fill it on the way to the lake. when i left the lake yesterday i pulled up to the dock and parked. walked up, got the truck and backed the trailer into the water. i was docked on the backside so i had to jump on the seadoo and drive it around to the trailer. it wouldn't start. EMPTY. fun times, my friend, fun times. :hump:

this rips for you. bongsmilie
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
the tank on my seadoo holds 15 gallons. i fill it on the way to the lake. when i left the lake yesterday i pulled up to the dock and parked. walked up, got the truck and backed the trailer into the water. i was docked on the backside so i had to jump on the seadoo and drive it around to the trailer. it wouldn't start. EMPTY. fun times, my friend, fun times. :hump:

this rips for you. bongsmilie
Is this a metaphor :weed:?
 

The Warlord

Well-Known Member
Keep it coming. Just insult everyone on here and then you can be the smartest of them all!!! Sometimes I wonder how shitty your lives are considering you derive happiness from insulting others on the INTERNET in order to compensate for your life's inadequacies.
I just pointed out your political affiliation. Thats not really a personal insult.
 
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