Green Cross
Well-Known Member
Shhh Savage is on!Of course....just consider the author....Is he doing the best he can? Let's hope not...
Who's on the right VS who's on the left
- Thread starter medicineman
- Start date
jrh72582
Well-Known Member
Bitter much?
CrackerJax
New Member
What's to be bitter about? I don't vote for ppl I don't believe in. I pick and choose who i vote for. So you fill out the voters card in its entirety....for what purpose? Just because it is blank and needs an answer? I have always voted that way. I didn't vote for Bush either in the first election.....
CrackerJax
New Member
You are in good company...
what... huh?
Active Member
I lean VERY conservative on my government views. "Right wing fanatic" I am not.
Less government = good. I do not need a nanny. My wife and I can best decide for our family where our money is spent. Of course you need roads, military, etc... but it is not the place of the government to protect me from me... only from you.
Less government = good. I do not need a nanny. My wife and I can best decide for our family where our money is spent. Of course you need roads, military, etc... but it is not the place of the government to protect me from me... only from you.
CrackerJax
New Member
Med Man makes the word "fanatic" sound bad! Nothing wrong with being a fanatic....if you're doing the right thing.
K
Keenly
Guest
medicineman
New Member
So what did we learn? about 20 right wingers, and a few lefties, point proven. Most of the right wingers were afraid to vote, hence only 11 count, but read the posts and one will clearly see, the right wing is definently in control of this thread. I don't get the whiny little bitch insult, but it goes along with the retarded mindset of the right. Go on now you little righty bitches, Michal Savage, Rush Limbaugh and Mark Levine are waiting to pump those little brains full of hate. Ta Ta.
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
Wrong again. Your push poll did not reflect my political views. It's as simple as that.
Politics are not linear, Med. Nor are they completely black and white. If your simplistic political theory were a reality, devout Catholics could not be Democrats.
I have attempted on numerous occasions to correct your assumptions about Libertarians to no avail. Your ignorance on the subject has moved into the realm of willful ignorance, and there is another word for that. But I will not be the one to employ it.
Nice try, but you simply cannot box me into a certain political category. Only I can do that.
Classical Liberal.
Accept it.
JimmyPot
Well-Known Member
If you support the right or left you believe in a system that does not believe in you. Medicineman your avatar is of an Indian.Which way do you think the Indians vote?It is ignorant to vote for a party because you agree with one or two things they do when the parties as a whole are shit.Politics is like your favorite sports teams you love the steelers no matter what their record and hate the packers no matter their record.People choose a side argue and rarley have a damn clue what they are talking about.The two party system and the voting is a illusion that the working class beleives gives them a choice in what is going to happen in this country.If you buy into the system you should be the idiot with out an opinion.Vote every four years!Watch the super bowl!Vote or die!Enlist your sons into the service!Work forty hour a week!Buy!Consume!
medicineman
New Member
Through all your high handed speech, you have accepted one reality: You are a libertarian. Now correct me if I'm wrong, But aren't libertarians just one notch past Atilla the hun to the right? Accept the fact that there is definently a left and a right. conservative and liberal, Only many shades of gray to confuse the participants, but in the end, one is either left leaning or right leaning, and you my friend are definently tilted to the right. You can definently stop with the ass-umption that you are educating me. I'm beyond brainwashing and being corrected like a little schoolboy.
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
I am under no illusion that I am educating you, Med. You are quite clearly incapable of even so much as considering anything which falls outside of your prejudices and preconceived notions. Willful ignorance.
I am a Libertarian, A.K.A. Classical Liberal, A.K.A. Traditional Liberal, A.K.A. Jeffersonian Liberal.
Having said that, if my vote in the last Presidential election defines my party affiliation, I am a Constitutionalist.
I prefer Classical Liberal. It knocks you Modern Liberal/Progressive types for a loop and serves to remind you that Liberalism is not a new concept.
Am I "right leaning" on certain specific issues? Without question; as are you when the topic is the 2nd Amendment or illegal immigration. But that is definitely not how you phrased your poll questions. And the "many shades of gray" appear to confuse only you.
Atilla the Hun, funny.
Once again, you demonstrate your deliberate willful ignorance of Libertarianism. Need I remind you, once again, that Camille Paglia is a Libertarian, too?Tell me, my friend, would someone to the right of Atilla the Hun be:
Opposed to the death penalty?
Against abortion personally, but accepting it as public policy? Key word being accepting.
Opposed to 'In God We Trust' on our currency, or to any reference to religion in the public square?
In favor of the total and complete repeal of cannabis prohibition?
Seeking to reduce the ever increasing power and control of law enforcement over our citizenry?
A strict vegetarian?
In favor of gay marriage?
A conservationist strongly in favor of sustainable energy with the goal of complete energy independence?
robert 14617
Well-Known Member
MM i want to vote but my option is not listed
CrackerJax
New Member
JO...I'm with you right on down that list...amazing....except for the Brussel Sprouts.... moo.I am under no illusion that I am educating you, Med. You are quite clearly incapable of even so much as considering anything which falls outside of your prejudices and preconceived notions. Willful ignorance.
I am a Libertarian, A.K.A. Classical Liberal, A.K.A. Traditional Liberal, A.K.A. Jeffersonian Liberal.
Having said that, if my vote in the last Presidential election defines my party affiliation, I am a Constitutionalist.
I prefer Classical Liberal. It knocks you Modern Liberal/Progressive types for a loop and serves to remind you that Liberalism is not a new concept.
Am I "right leaning" on certain specific issues? Without question; as are you when the topic is the 2nd Amendment or illegal immigration. But that is definitely not how you phrased your poll questions. And the "many shades of gray" appear to confuse only you.
Atilla the Hun, funny.
Tell me, my friend, would someone to the right of Atilla the Hun be:
Opposed to the death penalty?
Against abortion personally, but accepting it as public policy? Key word being accepting.
Opposed to 'In God We Trust' on our currency, or to any reference to religion in the public square?
In favor of the total and complete repeal of cannabis prohibition?
Seeking to reduce the ever increasing power and control of law enforcement over our citizenry?
A strict vegetarian?
In favor of gay marriage?
A conservationist strongly in favor of sustainable energy with the goal of complete energy independence?
MM's mind is clouded with visions of Bush
being the end all be all of conservative
even libertarian ideology.
No he is simply a collectivist.
They can't stand the idea that people are not just a bunch of worker bees.
laboring away for the good of the collective.
How we are all greedy and using outdated ideology.
I believe we are kings in our domain.
He would reduce us all to minions laboring for the sake of the political elite.
He will deny it but its true.
being the end all be all of conservative
even libertarian ideology.
No he is simply a collectivist.
They can't stand the idea that people are not just a bunch of worker bees.
laboring away for the good of the collective.
How we are all greedy and using outdated ideology.
I believe we are kings in our domain.
He would reduce us all to minions laboring for the sake of the political elite.
He will deny it but its true.
Gropotkin
Member
There are many, many, many, different sub-groups to both the "left" and the "right".
First, let's start with where the use of the term "left" in polity vocabulary comes from.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics
"In politics, left-wing, political left, leftist and the Left are terms used to describe support for changing traditional social orders and creating a more egalitarian distribution of wealth and privilege. The phrase left-wing was coined during the French Revolution, referring to the seating arrangement in parliament; those who sat on the left supported the republic, the popular political movements and secularization."
It is generally understood among progressives and radicals that the left represented a break from tradition - a defiant stand against the existing social order which at the time was rife with hierarchy, privilege, exploitation, and fairly unpleasant state oppression of the poor.
Since then, the term has come to mean pretty much anyone who challenges the existing social order in an effort to attain what they believe to be "social justice" by minimizing or eliminating social inequalities which are the lack of rights (such as property, legal, voting, freedom of speech and assembly), access to education, health care, etc for any kind of group but mostly including ethnic minorities, women, queer and transgendered people, and so on and so forth.
Now, the waters are a little more murky. Nationalists like pro-fascist nazis are generally regarded as being on the right because they are seen as standing up for a social order that has oppressed ethnic minorities since it was profitable to do so. This however does not mean that all nationalist movements have been racist. I just can't find a single white nationalist movement that wasn't. The Mexican revolution was nationalist but it was heavily influenced by lefty authors and organizers from anarchism like Zapata who was elected to lead a peasant army.
But that is the far right - the tinfoil right. Next to them are people like Alex Jones and Ron Paul who are slightly less racist and weird. Somewhere in between them and the Nazis are anti-immigrant white supremacists like those dudes in Az. that carry guns around the border.
Slightly just next to them are Republicans. There are two types of Republicans. Politicians and voters. Politicians lie to the voters so that the voters will tolerate the growing corpocracy, imperialism, Capitalism, GMO frankenfood, totalitarian anti-citizen spy programs, torture, destruction of our natural resources, drug criminalization, rising unemployment due to globalization, private prison industry and more fun stuff.
Slightly just next to them are Democrats. There are two types of Democrats. Politicians and voters. Politicians lie to the voters so that the voters will tolerate the growing corpocracy, imperialism, Capitalism, GMO frankenfood, totalitarian anti-citizen spy programs, torture, destruction of our natural resources, drug criminalization, rising unemployment due to globalization, private prison industry and more fun stuff.
See what I did there?
Libertarian Party members are usually about reduced government, personal freedom, and free market capitalism. I get along with them most of the time except for the free market capitalism and permitted existence of a federal government. BTW - Capitalism is not the only market economy and everything you love about market economies is perverted and contorted under Capitalism to maintain the anti-freedom corpocracy. Fuck monopolies.
Also I want to make it abundantly clear that every president who ever lived and presided over the USA has been a genocidal misogynist and generally a very bad person. From Washington to Obama, every one of them has been complicit in genocide (which is unjustifiable and perhaps the most egregious human rights abuse) and class war against the poor. All of them further sold us out to wealthy companies and businessmen.
Somehow we were convinced that democracy, the highest form of government and polity, a beacon of egalitarian decision making, meant electing people to make decisions for us. It even happened in Russia to people who believed in the promising message of the new socialism ala Marx and Lenin. Somehow the people affected by decisions lost the ability to make them and a ruling class emerged in Russia, whereas one had already been established in America. To this day we still believe foolish prattle that this is a free country - all the while decisions about what we eat, watch, read, listen to, who we love and how, the work we do and the pay we get (or don't get), and so much more are being made for us. The claim is that we are able to elect people who represent us, however an overwhelming majority of wealthy people in the state and federal governments clearly indicates we are not represented considering how many people are below or at the poverty level in this country.
So what is the alternative? Only direct democracy. But what kind and who has the right one? There are some good ideas out there I feel. I am a social anarchist and I favor anarcho-communism, which is not so much a system itself but a philosophy which has guided the creation of egalitarian radically democratic systems like anarcho-syndicalism, participatory economics, and more. I distrust market economies because they all remind me too much of Capitalism but I wouldn't mind participating in anarcho-mutualist economies if one near me had goods I needed or services required that I could provide. Anarcho-mutualism seems like the most libertarian and yet socialist economic system that any fan of markets could come to embrace.
So I guess I'm lefty. But I should point out that there is a term worth searching called "Post-Left Anarchism". I don't know how I feel about it to be honest. I like some things some post-leftists have said, such as Bob Black. But not everything I agree with. Such is life and the diversity of minds, right?
I believe that communism, like love and respect, is not something that can be imposed from the top down. I believe it is something that must be constructed from the bottom up and that any amount of coercion, domination, or exploitation is a sad perversion of communist ideals. I believe we should be free to determine who with, what and how much to share. I also believe that commodities have innate attributes which lend them to certain economies more than others. For instance I believe that the gift economy model of Open Source Software makes a lot of sense because of the ease with which such information is added to and distributed. While at the same time I feel consumables may be appropriately traded on a mutualist market place or distributed via syndicalism or participatory economics. I reject intellectual property rights, favor use based land economies, totally support worker self management, community-based direct democracy, pervasive and ubiquitous community and personal sustainable organic gardening, and complete personal freedom which does not mean the freedom to oppress, dominate, coerce, or exploit anyone. So for instance, society should tolerate marijuana use but not rape. Using marijuana doesn't coerce anyone into doing something they don't want to, nor does it exploit them.
Anyone looking to find out more about anarchism can look at the FAQ which does a good job of criticizing both left and right-wing political ideas while presenting a clear and concise definition, survey, and case for anarchism. It also has an interesting article about how justice would be approached in an anti-authoritarian society; section I5 I think. http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html
If you'd like more info than that, like about what forms of decision making, organization, and economics anarchists support you can PM me for links.
First, let's start with where the use of the term "left" in polity vocabulary comes from.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics
"In politics, left-wing, political left, leftist and the Left are terms used to describe support for changing traditional social orders and creating a more egalitarian distribution of wealth and privilege. The phrase left-wing was coined during the French Revolution, referring to the seating arrangement in parliament; those who sat on the left supported the republic, the popular political movements and secularization."
It is generally understood among progressives and radicals that the left represented a break from tradition - a defiant stand against the existing social order which at the time was rife with hierarchy, privilege, exploitation, and fairly unpleasant state oppression of the poor.
Since then, the term has come to mean pretty much anyone who challenges the existing social order in an effort to attain what they believe to be "social justice" by minimizing or eliminating social inequalities which are the lack of rights (such as property, legal, voting, freedom of speech and assembly), access to education, health care, etc for any kind of group but mostly including ethnic minorities, women, queer and transgendered people, and so on and so forth.
Now, the waters are a little more murky. Nationalists like pro-fascist nazis are generally regarded as being on the right because they are seen as standing up for a social order that has oppressed ethnic minorities since it was profitable to do so. This however does not mean that all nationalist movements have been racist. I just can't find a single white nationalist movement that wasn't. The Mexican revolution was nationalist but it was heavily influenced by lefty authors and organizers from anarchism like Zapata who was elected to lead a peasant army.
But that is the far right - the tinfoil right. Next to them are people like Alex Jones and Ron Paul who are slightly less racist and weird. Somewhere in between them and the Nazis are anti-immigrant white supremacists like those dudes in Az. that carry guns around the border.
Slightly just next to them are Republicans. There are two types of Republicans. Politicians and voters. Politicians lie to the voters so that the voters will tolerate the growing corpocracy, imperialism, Capitalism, GMO frankenfood, totalitarian anti-citizen spy programs, torture, destruction of our natural resources, drug criminalization, rising unemployment due to globalization, private prison industry and more fun stuff.
Slightly just next to them are Democrats. There are two types of Democrats. Politicians and voters. Politicians lie to the voters so that the voters will tolerate the growing corpocracy, imperialism, Capitalism, GMO frankenfood, totalitarian anti-citizen spy programs, torture, destruction of our natural resources, drug criminalization, rising unemployment due to globalization, private prison industry and more fun stuff.
See what I did there?
Libertarian Party members are usually about reduced government, personal freedom, and free market capitalism. I get along with them most of the time except for the free market capitalism and permitted existence of a federal government. BTW - Capitalism is not the only market economy and everything you love about market economies is perverted and contorted under Capitalism to maintain the anti-freedom corpocracy. Fuck monopolies.
Also I want to make it abundantly clear that every president who ever lived and presided over the USA has been a genocidal misogynist and generally a very bad person. From Washington to Obama, every one of them has been complicit in genocide (which is unjustifiable and perhaps the most egregious human rights abuse) and class war against the poor. All of them further sold us out to wealthy companies and businessmen.
Somehow we were convinced that democracy, the highest form of government and polity, a beacon of egalitarian decision making, meant electing people to make decisions for us. It even happened in Russia to people who believed in the promising message of the new socialism ala Marx and Lenin. Somehow the people affected by decisions lost the ability to make them and a ruling class emerged in Russia, whereas one had already been established in America. To this day we still believe foolish prattle that this is a free country - all the while decisions about what we eat, watch, read, listen to, who we love and how, the work we do and the pay we get (or don't get), and so much more are being made for us. The claim is that we are able to elect people who represent us, however an overwhelming majority of wealthy people in the state and federal governments clearly indicates we are not represented considering how many people are below or at the poverty level in this country.
So what is the alternative? Only direct democracy. But what kind and who has the right one? There are some good ideas out there I feel. I am a social anarchist and I favor anarcho-communism, which is not so much a system itself but a philosophy which has guided the creation of egalitarian radically democratic systems like anarcho-syndicalism, participatory economics, and more. I distrust market economies because they all remind me too much of Capitalism but I wouldn't mind participating in anarcho-mutualist economies if one near me had goods I needed or services required that I could provide. Anarcho-mutualism seems like the most libertarian and yet socialist economic system that any fan of markets could come to embrace.
So I guess I'm lefty. But I should point out that there is a term worth searching called "Post-Left Anarchism". I don't know how I feel about it to be honest. I like some things some post-leftists have said, such as Bob Black. But not everything I agree with. Such is life and the diversity of minds, right?
I believe that communism, like love and respect, is not something that can be imposed from the top down. I believe it is something that must be constructed from the bottom up and that any amount of coercion, domination, or exploitation is a sad perversion of communist ideals. I believe we should be free to determine who with, what and how much to share. I also believe that commodities have innate attributes which lend them to certain economies more than others. For instance I believe that the gift economy model of Open Source Software makes a lot of sense because of the ease with which such information is added to and distributed. While at the same time I feel consumables may be appropriately traded on a mutualist market place or distributed via syndicalism or participatory economics. I reject intellectual property rights, favor use based land economies, totally support worker self management, community-based direct democracy, pervasive and ubiquitous community and personal sustainable organic gardening, and complete personal freedom which does not mean the freedom to oppress, dominate, coerce, or exploit anyone. So for instance, society should tolerate marijuana use but not rape. Using marijuana doesn't coerce anyone into doing something they don't want to, nor does it exploit them.
Anyone looking to find out more about anarchism can look at the FAQ which does a good job of criticizing both left and right-wing political ideas while presenting a clear and concise definition, survey, and case for anarchism. It also has an interesting article about how justice would be approached in an anti-authoritarian society; section I5 I think. http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html
If you'd like more info than that, like about what forms of decision making, organization, and economics anarchists support you can PM me for links.
Don Gin and Ton
Well-Known Member
who gives a flying f@ck?
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
Well said.I am under no illusion that I am educating you, Med. You are quite clearly incapable of even so much as considering anything which falls outside of your prejudices and preconceived notions. Willful ignorance.
I am a Libertarian, A.K.A. Classical Liberal, A.K.A. Traditional Liberal, A.K.A. Jeffersonian Liberal.
Having said that, if my vote in the last Presidential election defines my party affiliation, I am a Constitutionalist.
I prefer Classical Liberal. It knocks you Modern Liberal/Progressive types for a loop and serves to remind you that Liberalism is not a new concept.
Am I "right leaning" on certain specific issues? Without question; as are you when the topic is the 2nd Amendment or illegal immigration. But that is definitely not how you phrased your poll questions. And the "many shades of gray" appear to confuse only you.
Atilla the Hun, funny.
Tell me, my friend, would someone to the right of Atilla the Hun be:
Opposed to the death penalty?
Against abortion personally, but accepting it as public policy? Key word being accepting.
Opposed to 'In God We Trust' on our currency, or to any reference to religion in the public square?
In favor of the total and complete repeal of cannabis prohibition?
Seeking to reduce the ever increasing power and control of law enforcement over our citizenry?
A strict vegetarian?
In favor of gay marriage?
A conservationist strongly in favor of sustainable energy with the goal of complete energy independence?
medicineman
New Member
`So Ilkan, you have now made it personal. I have no intentions of forcing anyone to do anything. You seem to be deluded in labeling me as someone that wants to shove something unwanted down their throat. Take the Obama medical reform plan before it was crushed in conference. It always allowed people to keep their current insurance or change to an insurance of their choice. I was in favor of that. It also offered a public option which would allow everyone to have some kind of health insurance, and also keep the private sector on their toes with pricing. I get called a comie fascist for this??? THis smacks of brainwash from FOX news or the far right. I just don't get what is wrong with this program. The only ones with something to lose are the insurance assholes that are screwing us over completely. Please tell me you aren't so selfish as to deprive 50 million people of medical insurance over a 2.5% tax. Think about health and see if you can't really admit it should be a right, not a priveledge of the rich. The current health care situation can not be sustained. There are 50+ million un-insured and growing, millions are going bankrtupt over medical bills, and you and those on the right favor the status quo, or actually, the insurance companies, and I'm a commie. This is complete insanity