Why are Americans so afraid of Socialism?

[CrackerJax]

Even saddam admitted before his death that while he "suspended" his program, he was going to get it back in gear as soon as the pressure was off. He simply miscalculated....

You need to look up the definition of WMD's. Saddam had already used WMD's on the Turks. Yellowcake was just one cog in the wheel of saddams arsenal.

The teachers union is only interested in money. Not education. Unions turn the brilliant into the mediocre. Our education system is mediocre.

 

[jrh72582]

ROFLMAO

JRH - Nice to see you again, are you trying to reach towards the conclusion that I should actually take the time to try paraphrasing the hundreds of thousands if not millions of words that I have read regarding this topic from scratch with out notes, references and a detailed outline of more than hitting the points I want to make?

It's good to be back. I just returned from a two week trip to the Netherlands, have more free time on my hands, and am ready to engage in edifying discourse again.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

It's good to be back. I just returned from a two week trip to the Netherlands, have more free time on my hands, and am ready to engage in edifying discourse again.

Well, it'll be nice to have some one that has an informed opinion, even if I disagree with the conclusions they draw.

 

[jrh72582]

Even saddam admitted before his death that while he "suspended" his program, he was going to get it back in gear as soon as the pressure was off. He simply miscalculated....

You need to look up the definition of WMD's. Saddam had already used WMD's on the Turks. Yellowcake was just one cog in the wheel of saddams arsenal.

The teachers union is only interested in money. Not education. Unions turn the brilliant into the mediocre. Our education system is mediocre.

Concerning Saddam, and keep in mind this is merely hypothesis, I bet he was tortured and told them what they wanted to hear. Remember, as Shakespeare taught us, he who is upon the rack will say anything. And was this confession videotaped?

And as far as the unions go, I agree - they're only interested in money. With the current state of unions in the US, I would love to see them all dissipate. And your claim that our education system is mediocre is an understatement. It's pitiful. In Belgium, almost every student speaks 4 languages fluently by the time he graduates high school. And that's the norm on the top.

 

[dontexist21]

ROFLMAO

You obviously have failed to examine the state of the Republic with any great interested. We already do have millions of uneducated Americans. Jefferson's idea that free education would result in a informed electorate is a joke.

The only thing it has come as a result of a public education system is what Socialism predicts, mindless drones that are incapable of having the creative spark of individualism due to having never had the opportunity to learn how to reach logical conclusions.

More so is the fact that there has been attempts by people outside of the school system to dictate what is taught, and a refusal of them, and educators to get out of the way and let students decide what career path is right for them. Especially in High School. The public education system is nothing more than a system of industrial brainwashing under a sham facade of providing its pupils with the tools they need to be worthy of the sacrifices their ancestors made to let them be citizens in the greatest nation in the world. Which it fails to do.

The history of the Department of Education is a history of ever increasing inefficiency, spiraling costs and declining rewards. Much like the history of the dollar. The more money they get the less value they deliver.

It is a law of diminishing returns.

No, amount of money is going to change a mediocre or below-average teacher into a great teacher. No, amount of money is going to turn a mediocre student into a intellect.

People are different, something that you seem to be neglecting to account for like so many millions of others. Something that is not accounted for by the industrial process that is the public education system.



JRH - Nice to see you again, are you trying to reach towards the conclusion that I should actually take the time to try paraphrasing the hundreds of thousands if not millions of words that I have read regarding this topic from scratch with out notes, references and a detailed outline of more than hitting the points I want to make?

I know millions of Americans are uneducated, does that justify taking opportunity away from even more of them and increasing that number. So what do we do with the children who wish to get educated, and can not since their parents can not afford it. No system is perfect, there will always be people that do not care. That is why we should stop having mandatory education. We should provide the education, not force it. You do not take into account the consequences when a country ignores people with potential just because they were not born in the right circumstances.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

I know millions of Americans are uneducated, does that justify taking opportunity away from even more of them and increasing that number. So what do we do with the children who wish to get educated, and can not since their parents can not afford it. No system is perfect, there will always be people that do not care. That is why we should stop having mandatory education. We should provide the education, not force it. You do not take into account the consequences when a country ignores people with potential just because they were not born in the right circumstances.

So you are saying that we should do away with truancy laws, and let the people that show they will value it (by earning good grades, and not wasting the resources dedicated to the public school system) have a free education.

That, I'm prepared to agree with. I think truancy laws are an onerous restriction of people's liberty, and forcing them into a place they do not want to be just reduces the value of the services provided for those that do want to be there.

I think I can agree with what you are proposing, or at least agree that it would be an improvement over the current system.

It would definitely go towards freeing teachers to teach instead of act like babysitters.

 

[CrackerJax]

Concerning Saddam, and keep in mind this is merely hypothesis, I bet he was tortured and told them what they wanted to hear. Remember, as Shakespeare taught us, he who is upon the rack will say anything. And was this confession videotaped?

And as far as the unions go, I agree - they're only interested in money. With the current state of unions in the US, I would love to see them all dissipate. And your claim that our education system is mediocre is an understatement. It's pitiful. In Belgium, almost every student speaks 4 languages fluently by the time he graduates high school. And that's the norm on the top.

saddam was NOT tortured and gave the info of his own free will. This stuff is not top secret, just not reported. There's a big difference.

Read this link. there are others, but i just used this one... read and be amazed. Never heard about it? Not surprised.....the media doesn't want you to know.

LiveLeak.com - UN Admits Saddam Had WMD

 

[jeezy42085]

Really most people just dont take a stand on their beliefs and if they do and it doesnt line up with society they are scutenized. Are we All Really FREE???? Really we need more people with lodicall thinking to be in the right places and do something so we all can have a better way of living. I know i am Broke aS FuCk and it doesnt get easier but i still go to school and try to do my thing. I wish more people stopped following the CROWD and Stood up for something. Whatever it is. We wont get any where without some hard work and people taking a stand for what they believe in.Its all about checks and balances. Right Or left, Somethings gotta Give.

 

[TreesOfLife]

Source USAvsUS​

Free Enterprise​

The people engage in free enterprise by trading ones labor for another's labor.​

There is no filing, registering, or obtaining permission or licensing from any government structure.​

The people are responsible for themselves and each other.​

The people do not rely on insurance to overcome irresponsibility and capriciousness.​

VS​

Capitalism​

Composed of, encourages, and creates a corporate structure of corporations and big businesses that use people as human resources to further its goal to grow and expand and become more powerful thereby eliminating competition and becoming more controlling.​

The thing created (the corporation) becomes more powerful than the creator (man) who created it. Man is no longer free but is subservient (a slave) to the corporate structure. The corporate structure needs to reduce the wages of its human resources to decrease cost to increase profit to keep growing.​

Corporations eat each other and grow bigger and more powerful thereby allowing fewer persons having big egos controlling the lives of the common folk from cradle to grave.​

Corporations have no feelings. Corporations primary purpose is to grow and are thereby less responsible and less sympathetic towards the people, thereby rely on and utilize insurance or other resources such as the corporate government to bail themselves out of irresponsible critical situations.​

 

[dontexist21]

Really most people just dont take a stand on their beliefs and if they do and it doesnt line up with society they are scutenized. Are we All Really FREE???? Really we need more people with lodicall thinking to be in the right places and do something so we all can have a better way of living. I know i am Broke aS FuCk and it doesnt get easier but i still go to school and try to do my thing. I wish more people stopped following the CROWD and Stood up for something. Whatever it is. We wont get any where without some hard work and people taking a stand for what they believe in.Its all about checks and balances. Right Or left, Somethings gotta Give.

To many broken systems in this country, and no politician is willing to look at facts, cold hard facts. I could care less if my ideas are the ones that worked, as long as they work. I just provide my opinion. Many of the problems that we have today are so interconnected that unless we take some serious time to address them nothing will truly ever be done. One example is fix our prison system, if stopped throwing so many people in prison that did not deserve to be in there we might be able to use that money on something more important. Sadly most people do not see things like that, which gives our politicians a reason not to care. More people are interested in who their politician is sleeping with rather then what they are doing.

 

[CrackerJax]

Todays Congress isn't trying to fix anything. We are in a financial tailspin and they are on a shopping spree. Obama and company are even out of step with Europe, which is saying a lot!

 

[Rob Roy]

You are so confused my man. You made three points that display nothing but a misunderstanding of my argument.

First, this is isn't Locke's tacit consent argument. It was around before him - he merely fleshed out the theory first in the Treatises.

Second, I do agree with the theory that a MAJORITY should ideally run this country. We vote for our politicians (even though they're all the same) and are represented by them. These politicians can change laws and govern radically different from one another. I also believe that all politicians must follow a rigid set of laws (the constitution) and work with these laws when enacting new laws or altering old ones. Currently, we have an administration that was clearly voted in on majority. If you, as an American, feel as though you're not represented by that majority, you can always leave. That's the theory.

Now, I understand that the US is controlled by the rich and I'm privy to the fact that each president falls subordinate to higher powers that be (in the form on the uber-rich corporations), thus creating an unfair position for the rest of us. It creates a situation where, no matter who we vote for, we still find ourselves under the rule of a seemingly omniscient and unfair bully. So, what do we do? Well, I don't know. However, if the situation bothered me that much, I would leave. I'm merely remarking on the indubitable and ultimately, undefeatable spirit of man - free will, if you will. That was my argument.

Thirdly, I do not mistake or misalign my morality and my legality. I never even made a legal or moral argument, since tacit consent isn't actually the legal justification used. And using the Civil War as an example to disprove my point is silly, especially when you actually understand what I'm saying. The Civil War was fought over State's rights - NOT SLAVERY! They were arguing over the right to autonomy as a state and the nation was split. Our nation is not split. A high majority want to see something radically different, and they are. And I will repeat that even though I disagree with the direction we're going, a majority is still spoken for.

I don't believe I used the civil war as an example. I stated that legal ain't always moral and stated as an example that slavery was once legal, but never moral. If something is legal but immoral being "the law of the land" don't mean shit to me...even if your revered majority say it must be so. Tyranny by the many, tyranny by the few, still not morally right.

Concerning tacit consent, you avoided my question...does your presence in the United States mean you give tacit consent to pot laws and any punishment you may receive? Will you be taking your own advice and leaving the country if you disagree with pot laws?

You again side step another of my questions. So that I will not be so "confused" tell me about your "morality"...Do you accept that government should use force against people that harm nobody? Are you okay with that?

 

[CrackerJax]

I just want my free cell phone from the Govt.!!!

 

[bgmike8]

Free pizza for all. Thats what i say.

 

[CrackerJax]

Oh, that's next. If you turn in a week old 16" pizza pie, the Govt. will give you a new 12" pizza!!

 

[bgmike8]

ive just got some crust, but i do have a kid so what am i ENTITLED to?

 

[CrackerJax]

Your entitlements go UP the less you WORK!! Oh, and have more KIDS!! Send the crust to a taxpayer, cause that's all they are getting anyways....

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

So you are saying that we should do away with truancy laws, and let the people that show they will value it (by earning good grades, and not wasting the resources dedicated to the public school system) have a free education.

That, I'm prepared to agree with. I think truancy laws are an onerous restriction of people's liberty, and forcing them into a place they do not want to be just reduces the value of the services provided for those that do want to be there.

I think I can agree with what you are proposing, or at least agree that it would be an improvement over the current system.

It would definitely go towards freeing teachers to teach instead of act like babysitters.

Sorry, I'm just curious as if I've moving towards the page that you are on in regards to this, or if you are trying to make a different point entirely.

 

[dontexist21]

Sorry, I'm just curious as if I've moving towards the page that you are on in regards to this, or if you are trying to make a different point entirely.

Yes, I believe kids today should decide if they want to go to school. That way all of the assholes that do nothing but cause trouble can not only get kicked out but stop wasting time. I hated going to high school and being in class with a bunch of kids that did not even bring a book with them. Luckily I got into the AP classes so I did not have to deal with them later on. I believe everyone has a right to a education, I do not believe they should have that right forced upon them. The government should serve to allow people to better themselves through hard work. Money should never be a road block in education. If a kid wants to sit down learn, put in the hard work, and better themselves. They should have every right to. And if they want to spend time on the streets, let them. Its the parents responsibility not the governments to raise kids.

 

[Purplekrunchie]

I think this discussion is fascinating overall, it sure got a lot of attention.
What probably sums it up for me is, I am not as much afraid of socialism as I am afraid of an out of control government that I simply cannot trust. I think radiate said it well when he talked of an engine fueled by greed. No system will work as long as this human condition exists. So are we fucked? Hard to answer right now, but, I can say, I sure don't feel as good about where we are as I once did. We all have probably lost our comfort zone, and you can feel the tension in this country right now. Many americans voted for a slogan on a sign "change" but the truth is people are frightened by change. Maybe it's because recent history has taught us that when something changes, it's usually not a change that gives a sense of freedom, quite the lack thereof. This thread shows how divisive this issue is, and there were a lot of opinions expressed here that I don't agree with, I do agree with your right to express them though. I'm glad there is such passion, as it shows people are paying attention, hell, some of this shows that I couldnt hold a political discussion with several of you in here, some of it would have to be dumbed down for me some. I did, however, read 90% and got a lot from it. I dont have much, but what I do have I earned myself, i'll take my small house, that I achieved myself over a castle given to me for free by a government system ran by trash that should be tossed out with extreme aggression. I do not and never have wanted anything from them, I don't want this machine anywhere near my life or my family, or CEOs from greedy capitolist buisnesses, they are both playing a tug of war, and we the ones who will inevetably wind up in the mud, heads I win, tails you lose.

Side question: How long until we see a true socialist party in the United States?