CrackerJax
New Member
Ahhh, yes I get your point, but I was talking about the RENTERS, who do ride for free.
Why are Americans so afraid of Socialism?
- Thread starter dontexist21
- Start date
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
Get over it Rob Roy you have to pay taxes!.............Americans have been paying taxes since the founding of this country......cry me a river
Well since you insist taxes "have to be paid". I will again ask the philosophical questions that are continually side stepped.
Are you okay with forcible extraction of money by anyone? Isn't that theft?
If I held a gun to you wouldn't that be robbery?
Why do you endorse government using violence and refuse to see it for what it is? You are okay with extortion? Saying "you have to" is avoiding the moral dilemma. Why is it robbery when I take your money but when a group of indviduals (government) do it against your will you accept it? The meaning of a word doesn't change when the players change does it?
I'll tell you the answer since nobody seems to want to answer the questions, instead falling back on week arguments like "you have to"...The answer why you pay is - fear.
Government is force. You know this, it is irrefutable.
Americans have been paying taxes since the founding of this country? Have they? Do you have any idea what the percentage of income goes towards taxes now say versus 100 years ago? 50 years ago? How long into the year you work before the money becomes "yours" vs even when your parents were your age?
Cry you a river? Nah. Just trying to get you to realize that you are not free, nobody in this country is and the woods are going to get alot darker before they get any lighter. Obama is all about giving the federal reserve more power. You okay with that? Do you know what that means?
jrh72582
Well-Known Member
It's called tacit consent dude - TACIT CONSENT! In virtue of the fact that you WILLINGLY abide in this country, you tacitly agree to be governed by the laws of the country. If you don't like the laws (such as tax laws), then LEAVE. I've heard the comparison to taxing and slavery numerous times now in the thread, but it's a false analogy. Slaves, by definition, are NOT allowed to leave. Individuals in the US are allowed to leave. So if you stay here, you play by rules set forth by the government. If you don't like them - LEAVE!!! You are not a slave. You have free will. Use it.
kubrickzghost
New Member
The answer is simple. Socialism isn't just and 'idea'. It's been tested and proven not to work. In short, Socialism does not work as a government. You can try to make arguments for smaller countries like Sweden, etc. But those are not easy comparisons. If you want to get to brass tacks, the idea of switching to Socialism in America would be an injustice considering its size and make up. Other countries that have adopted socialist policies with large populations had to ration resources. Most Socialist gov't's don't produce innovative products and they have low GDP's. It's why people from these countries emigrate to America or come here for medical care their Socialist gov't won't allow them to have.... their country's socialistic policies are only good for the few who are close to power, have enormous wealth, or are a part of the bureaucracy.
A good wake up call for most of you guys on this site who consider Socialism, think about all the celebrities and wealthy individuals who support it. They do because they have big hearts and they want fairness for everyone, right? Hardly. Switching to Socialism now only empowers the wealthy, and isolates the poor and middle class into one big non-rich class. In other words, you are a prisoner to that system, and the freedom you have now to go out and earn wealth will be gone. So that is why all these celebrities like where Obama's going with Socialism. because they will stay rich, and you will stay poor.
On a side note, if you are poor and don't want to be wealthy-- or don't have the desire to work for food and clothing and other nice things, then Socialism is for you. But it will come with a lot of caveats... Like say government control, big brother, forfeit of personal property, fascism, communism... And you will have no way to stop it.
bgmike8
Well-Known Member
what a jerk. i should pay for your education? fuck you you should pay for my whiskey then.
on second thought maybe i will pay for your education so you will know that you are wasting everyones time when you try to differentiate socialism from communism.
the first post says that smart driven people cant get an education, bullshit
it makes me sad to be a stoner sometimes. all these stoners dont have a problem giving more power to the government. look what the government has done when its not a complete fucking communism. you think the government will make things better? do they teach coommon sense at colleges? i guess not.
look at all the socialist,communist, statist countries that will hang a mother fucker for possesion. but you can get hospital treatment for free if there isnt too long of a waitlist .
look at these fuckers in iran. they are out there right now ready to die for what we are so willing to give to the first charismatic mullato to offer a little hope.
on second thought maybe i will pay for your education so you will know that you are wasting everyones time when you try to differentiate socialism from communism.
the first post says that smart driven people cant get an education, bullshit
it makes me sad to be a stoner sometimes. all these stoners dont have a problem giving more power to the government. look what the government has done when its not a complete fucking communism. you think the government will make things better? do they teach coommon sense at colleges? i guess not.
look at all the socialist,communist, statist countries that will hang a mother fucker for possesion. but you can get hospital treatment for free if there isnt too long of a waitlist .
look at these fuckers in iran. they are out there right now ready to die for what we are so willing to give to the first charismatic mullato to offer a little hope.
Purplekrunchie
Well-Known Member
One part of the original post really pissed me off "Sorry but when you are on the governments bill you better be taking care of yourself better." How is this the governments fucking dime??? I am not going to be taxed for this? Great! Great, but bullshit, and when it is coming from the government rather than private buisness, you will be told what you can eat, drink, etc... Because of neighbors who never take care of themselves health wise and become obese, we have to now take away my option to grab a sack of burgers on a tuesday night when im running late, thats not freedom.
This is indeed a way to take away every freedom we have left in our lives, albeit, slowly. Ever heard the saying? "Put a frog in a boiling pot of water, it will hop out, put the same frog in cold water and slowly heat it up, the frog will boil to death"
jrh72582 says "individuals in the US are allowed to leave. So if you stay here, you play by rules set forth by the government. If you don't like them - LEAVE!!! You are not a slave. You have free will. Use it".
Let me get this straight, as im a little confounded by this ignorant statement. In essence what this is saying is, let the government do as they will, you will like it or you can leave. Wow, really? Thats about it than, we may as well all just crawl into our habit trails. No, sorry, this is not how it works, let me remind you that this in some way is still the United States of America, and although I know we have lost many of our liberties, we as a whole will not buy bullshit like that, at least I sure as hell hope not.
bgmike8 says " i should pay for your education? fuck you you should pay for my whiskey then." purple says "+rep"
This is indeed a way to take away every freedom we have left in our lives, albeit, slowly. Ever heard the saying? "Put a frog in a boiling pot of water, it will hop out, put the same frog in cold water and slowly heat it up, the frog will boil to death"
jrh72582 says "individuals in the US are allowed to leave. So if you stay here, you play by rules set forth by the government. If you don't like them - LEAVE!!! You are not a slave. You have free will. Use it".
Let me get this straight, as im a little confounded by this ignorant statement. In essence what this is saying is, let the government do as they will, you will like it or you can leave. Wow, really? Thats about it than, we may as well all just crawl into our habit trails. No, sorry, this is not how it works, let me remind you that this in some way is still the United States of America, and although I know we have lost many of our liberties, we as a whole will not buy bullshit like that, at least I sure as hell hope not.
bgmike8 says " i should pay for your education? fuck you you should pay for my whiskey then." purple says "+rep"
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
Your use of Locke's tacit consent argument is inconsistent with the picture of the nice looking bud in your avatar.
Should I assume your bags are packed and you will be leaving this country, taking that nice bud with you... because umm the law of the land says no smokee dope here and I'll assume you tacitly agree with those prohibition laws by your staying here?
You like many others confuse "legality" and morality and instead of answering my questions offer rationalizations as answers. Using your logic when slavery was legal anyone that disagreed should have left the country and those that stayed gave their tacit consent to slavery?
I'll try again...
Is it okay to initiate aggression against
another person that harms nobody?
Not is it legal, mind you, is it morally acceptable to you?
CrackerJax
New Member
Is that you Barack? You're not fooling anyone.
And let me tell you....Barack..... that logic will crash and burn the US. The ppl that would actually leave if this became the edict, are the PRODUCERS. You don't want to push producers out of the country do you? It's called, "losing your tax base."
Your "logic" is self defeating.....
bgmike8
Well-Known Member
yeah, if you dont like it leave. thats what the founding fathers did.
jrh72582
Well-Known Member
No, I'm not saying let the government do as they will. I'm saying - let the PEOPLE do as they will. The MAJORITY voted for this administration, so this administration gets to do what they want (much like Bush did, mostly in opposition to the people). Do I like this administration - no! I do not. My idea of government would be much different. However, I am interested to see what the results of a socialist-leaning ideology can produce. The European socialist model has thrived for some time now. Maybe it can help. I leave all possibilities open. So please don't straw man me again. If you cannot understand my argument, let me know and I will try to be more clear. But don't intentionally simplify my argument so that you can defeat it. That's not cool.
jrh72582
Well-Known Member
You are so confused my man. You made three points that display nothing but a misunderstanding of my argument.
First, this is isn't Locke's tacit consent argument. It was around before him - he merely fleshed out the theory first in the Treatises.
Second, I do agree with the theory that a MAJORITY should ideally run this country. We vote for our politicians (even though they're all the same) and are represented by them. These politicians can change laws and govern radically different from one another. I also believe that all politicians must follow a rigid set of laws (the constitution) and work with these laws when enacting new laws or altering old ones. Currently, we have an administration that was clearly voted in on majority. If you, as an American, feel as though you're not represented by that majority, you can always leave. That's the theory.
Now, I understand that the US is controlled by the rich and I'm privy to the fact that each president falls subordinate to higher powers that be (in the form on the uber-rich corporations), thus creating an unfair position for the rest of us. It creates a situation where, no matter who we vote for, we still find ourselves under the rule of a seemingly omniscient and unfair bully. So, what do we do? Well, I don't know. However, if the situation bothered me that much, I would leave. I'm merely remarking on the indubitable and ultimately, undefeatable spirit of man - free will, if you will. That was my argument.
Thirdly, I do not mistake or misalign my morality and my legality. I never even made a legal or moral argument, since tacit consent isn't actually the legal justification used. And using the Civil War as an example to disprove my point is silly, especially when you actually understand what I'm saying. The Civil War was fought over State's rights - NOT SLAVERY! They were arguing over the right to autonomy as a state and the nation was split. Our nation is not split. A high majority want to see something radically different, and they are. And I will repeat that even though I disagree with the direction we're going, a majority is still spoken for.
jrh72582
Well-Known Member
I love how you call anyone who says something different from you 'Barack'. Is that supposed to be an insult? Does Barack own every single argument other than yours? And when we believe any other argument from yours, we're no longer ourselves, but rather, we become Barack. Do you realize how ridiculous that logic is? You called my logic self-defeating (and used a presumptuous PREMISE (not a conclusion) to prove your point, which makes your claim invalid anyway), but you call me Barack because of an argument I made. HA!
You really make me laugh! I guess I'm supposed to get upset at the insinuation now and respond in anger, thus furthering the banter, right? You're a child (or a bitter, uneducated old man with a HUGE chip on his shoulder due to his general inadequacy in succeeding in life). Take your pick.
CrackerJax
New Member
Name another time plz.......
Bullshit. The free market is just as bound to it's constituents as the government is (as in, hardly at all). Don't like the government? Elect a new party. But wait, what happens when all parties involved are greedy, underhanded bastards? Well then I suppose you're fucked, and the only answer is to clear house. The free market is the exact same way. What happens when a company treats you like shit? Why, you simply go to the competitor, who is SURE to be an honest bob just because he'll win more business over his competitor, right?
Sure, if you ignore your own words, specifically:
"Greed is everywhere, get used to it. it's a human condition which knows no party lines."
I couldn't agree more with that statement. However, it's humorous how you convieniently ignore the fact that the private sector is also made up of the same thing as the government: human beings. They are just as greedy as their government counterparts, and there is just as little if not less regulation preventing the top dogs from banding together to hold all of the power and make life shit for everyone else.
They're all in on it folks. Blaming one and sanctifying the other is nothing more than classic them vs us left vs right blue vs red extra strength American stupid. It's high time we start ditching the stupid labels and just start conversing with each other like people instead of drawing battle lines all the time.
So why is America afraid of Socialism? The same basic reason anyone fears anything: because they don't understand it.
Capitalism is based around helping yourself, Socialism is based around helping others. We are a capitalist society, so helping those who don't help themselves seems a bit contrary to what is right. After all, who wants to support a freeloader? I sure as hell don't. I'm all for letting good-for-nothings rot in their own laziness. The problem I find with the capitalist way, however, is that it allows people who are bright and capable to fall through the cracks sometimes.
I personally believe that we evolved from more primitive creatures and should thusly do away with the barbaric dog-eat-dog way, and be a little more compassionate towards our fellow human beings. Who knows, the destitute might be a little more inspired to do something with their lives when they have a living and aren't living hopeless lives.
The truth is that ANY system of government can work and keep the people happy. The problem is that every system is perfect only in theory (despite what the numerous factions tell us) and requires the right people to lead. Herein lies the fundamental flaw of everything, the human condition.
CrackerJax
New Member
The free market doesn't have constituents, it only has customers. When one company (I have already explained this) is overpriced, another company will be quick to undercut them (to satisfy their own greed). It's a cutthroat world.
Oh, I understand socialism. it simply doesn't work nearly as well as capitalism. We are not the wealthiest and most productive society in the history of the world by chance. Our founding fathers set us up quite nicely, thank you very much. The more we deviate from their framework, the worse off we will be.
Aghain, the ONLY rerason why Europe works at all (besides the HUGE subsidies provided by us) is BECAUSE of the giant capitalist machine humming across the Atlantic. The latest elections in Europe all point to my position being correct. They have all swung to the right. The only one who doesn't get it is Obama. Now, either he doesn't understand how the economy actually works, which makes him INCOMPETENT to be president, OR..... Obama does understand and wants us to fail, and that also makes him INCOMPETENT to be president.
Frankly, not understanding is the better choice, but I think he gets it.....which is far far worse.
Oh, I understand socialism. it simply doesn't work nearly as well as capitalism. We are not the wealthiest and most productive society in the history of the world by chance. Our founding fathers set us up quite nicely, thank you very much. The more we deviate from their framework, the worse off we will be.
Aghain, the ONLY rerason why Europe works at all (besides the HUGE subsidies provided by us) is BECAUSE of the giant capitalist machine humming across the Atlantic. The latest elections in Europe all point to my position being correct. They have all swung to the right. The only one who doesn't get it is Obama. Now, either he doesn't understand how the economy actually works, which makes him INCOMPETENT to be president, OR..... Obama does understand and wants us to fail, and that also makes him INCOMPETENT to be president.
Frankly, not understanding is the better choice, but I think he gets it.....which is far far worse.
jrh72582
Well-Known Member
Another example of your blatant misuse of statistics and evidence to prove your claim. You're trying to prove that "the latest elections in Europe all point to [your] position being correct" and you use the claim "they have ALL swung to the right", which is both a blanket statement and FALSE. Every single European country has not swung to the right, as you so claim. You are so full of shit.
And we (US) are currently not anywhere near the wealthiest and most productive countries in the world. Are you crazy? And your claim that we're the most wealthy and productive in the whole history of the world - well that's egregiously false.
jrh72582
Well-Known Member
Very well stated. You're open-minded and well-spoken. +rep for you.
cwallace48
Member
you are so right BT, as for company going overseas and to other countries, we can thank Mr Bill Clinton for that
jrh72582
Well-Known Member
Your statement above relies upon faulty logic. It's a logical fallacy to attribute one cause for such a complex situation or problem. There are many more causes to the problem you state. Bill may have been a part of the cause, but 'part' is the operative word.
Definition of constituent according to Google (5th and 6th bullets from the top): "constituent - component: an abstract part of something"
Are customers not the most important component to the free market? Without customers, there is no market. Therefore, you are a consitituent to the free market. You are a consitituent to your local gas station of choice, grocery store, favorite restaraunt, etc. etc. etc. Without the people's "vote" of cash, companies can fade into nothing.
Indeed it is. So why would you hold onto a world that is so cutthroat? I'm not saying abandon it completely, but some changes are definitely needed. Do you not agree that a world that is less cutthroat would be better for everyone?
Please re-read my post carefully. Tell me how it's impossible for companies to band together and form massive power monopolies. Better yet, just tell me why they voluntarily won't do it (seeing as how you agree that both parties are greedy).
Again I say, the free markets and the government are one in the same. They function the exact same way. They advertise to convince constituents to vote (whether by ballots or bills) that their company/party is the best. Where one company/politician fails to satisfy, another company/politician will try to step in and undercut their competitor with more fancy talk and advertisements all while reducing the quality of their services to keep their pockets full.
Yes indeed they did. However, times have changed quite a bit since they wrote our foundations down. If you honestly believe there is no point in changing and adapting to the future, pull out your horse and buggy the next time you want to go somewhere. I highly doubt the founding fathers, even with all of their wisdom, could fathom the world we live in today.
If elections are proof, that would make you a fool in this country.
I can't answer which one on this subject. How about we just agree that he's incompetent and make it easy? After all, the results of a crashed economy are the same, regardless of intent or lack thereof.
