Donald Trump Announces Plan to Change Elections

doublejj

Well-Known Member
"We need to get things straightened out in this country, including elections," he said, after accepting the "Patriot of the Year" award at a Long Island event organized by Fox Nation on Thursday. Trump, 78, accepted the award, designed to resemble the American flag.
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
Im not stateside so not my circus or monkeys:
Ive voted in 2 different countries and always had to show some form of ID, seems common sense to me. How would you resolve two voters both claiming to be the same person? But what with the complicated situation in the US shouldnt the state guarantee some type of valid ID to anyone with a right to vote? Seems like the current opposite positions of no id or mandatory id just looks like intents of disenfranching someone: either the legal voters (by not requiring id opening up for all sorts of accusations) or voters too poor to get an id. This issue just seems to easy to argue about. My 2 cts as an outsider.
 

Absorber

Well-Known Member
Im not stateside so not my circus or monkeys:
Ive voted in 2 different countries and always had to show some form of ID, seems common sense to me. How would you resolve two voters both claiming to be the same person? But what with the complicated situation in the US shouldnt the state guarantee some type of valid ID to anyone with a right to vote? Seems like the current opposite positions of no id or mandatory id just looks like intents of disenfranching someone: either the legal voters (by not requiring id opening up for all sorts of accusations) or voters too poor to get an id. This issue just seems to easy to argue about. My 2 cts as an outsider.
Ive never had to show id when voting and then get handed a fkn pencil to fill ballot out with its a farce the voting system
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Im not stateside so not my circus or monkeys:
Ive voted in 2 different countries and always had to show some form of ID, seems common sense to me. How would you resolve two voters both claiming to be the same person? But what with the complicated situation in the US shouldnt the state guarantee some type of valid ID to anyone with a right to vote? Seems like the current opposite positions of no id or mandatory id just looks like intents of disenfranching someone: either the legal voters (by not requiring id opening up for all sorts of accusations) or voters too poor to get an id. This issue just seems to easy to argue about. My 2 cts as an outsider.
Ya it seems a thing that should be done IMO even if I disagree with everything the repugs stand for. Here in Canada ID is required.
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Offmymeds

Well-Known Member
Im not stateside so not my circus or monkeys:
Ive voted in 2 different countries and always had to show some form of ID, seems common sense to me. How would you resolve two voters both claiming to be the same person? But what with the complicated situation in the US shouldnt the state guarantee some type of valid ID to anyone with a right to vote? Seems like the current opposite positions of no id or mandatory id just looks like intents of disenfranching someone: either the legal voters (by not requiring id opening up for all sorts of accusations) or voters too poor to get an id. This issue just seems to easy to argue about. My 2 cts as an outsider.
The business about ID seems like a no-brainer but isn't. My severely disabled wife for example needed her out-of-state birth certificate ($25) to a get a Florida ID. She hadn't been able to drive in years but she never missed an election. Her voter registration itself wasn't enough even though such proof is required to register to vote to begin with. It came by snail mail. Then the trip to get the FL Dept. of Motor Vehicles was not easy. It literally took hours just to get ready to go out the door. I'm out-of-work during this time of course and believe me, there was always work to do, so I was not happy about that but maintained a smile for my wife exercising her right to vote. After that ordeal her ballot was considered a provisional ballot because it took so long to get the birth certificate.

Furthermore they know the poorest citizens are far more transient and won't vote if they have to redo the ordeal every move. Students also are of course transient so they began removing on-campus polling stations, not accepting student ID, etc,...anything to stop the votes.

And, of course, the best argument is that there has never been a problem to begin with. My state, which now funds the "Voter Integrity Force" of prosecutors literally has a .000019 voter fraud rate. They had to create the problem themselves to charge anyone by telling those with felony convictions to register to vote then charging them because they weren't aware they still weren't allowed to vote. A few other folks voted for deceased spouses or in two states. The double state voters are much less likely to be caught now because my state withdrew from ERIC, a database maintained for cross-checking state votes. The reason given was a conspiracy, the nonsense of which I don't remember. But it increases the likelihood of fraud. Even then it would be insignificant in 16 million votes.

Vote by mail votes are tracked by the postal system every step of the way. The gentlemen caught cheating in NC was caught because he dumped all of his stolen ballots in one PO Box. To actually cheat with mail-in ballots would require a team of trusted and reliable people dedicated to silence and all avoiding detection. Let's say their goal is stealing 1,000 (still insignificant) ballots. They can't do it at the PO, more alarm bells, so they have to steal from individual mailboxes and every single theft avoid detection by cameras and witnesses. Now assign 50 box thefts each to 20 trusted reliable people who will never speak of it under any circumstance. Cross your fingers now that every agent is 100% successful and never has any temptation to utter a word, not even to a spouse. Sound like a sane risk for 5 years in jail and a $5k fine?

Half the folks here are too apathetic to vote. Why would an illegal alien care even more and risk everything to vote?

IMO voter fraud should be concentrated in the areas where we've witnessed it, such as, gerrymandering, fake electors, insurrections, stacking election boards, and propaganda.
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
The business about ID seems like a no-brainer but isn't. My severely disabled wife for example needed her out-of-state birth certificate ($25) to a get a Florida ID. She hadn't been able to drive in years but she never missed an election. Her voter registration itself wasn't enough even though such proof is required to register to vote to begin with. It came by snail mail. Then the trip to get the FL Dept. of Motor Vehicles was not easy. It literally took hours just to get ready to go out the door. I'm out-of-work during this time of course and believe me, there was always work to do, so I was not happy about that but maintained a smile for my wife exercising her right to vote. After that ordeal her ballot was considered a provisional ballot because it took so long to get the birth certificate.

Furthermore they know the poorest citizens are far more transient and won't vote if they have to redo the ordeal every move. Students also are of course transient so they began removing on-campus polling stations, not accepting student ID, etc,...anything to stop the votes.

And, of course, the best argument is that there has never been a problem to begin with. My state, which now funds the "Voter Integrity Force" of prosecutors literally has a .000019 voter fraud rate. They had to create the problem themselves to charge anyone by telling those with felony convictions to register to vote then charging them because they weren't aware they still weren't allowed to vote. A few other folks voted for deceased spouses or in two states. The double state voters are much less likely to be caught now because my state withdrew from ERIC, a database maintained for cross-checking state votes. The reason given was a conspiracy, the nonsense of which I don't remember. But it increases the likelihood of fraud. Even then it would be insignificant in 16 million votes.

Vote by mail votes are tracked by the postal system every step of the way. The gentlemen caught cheating in NC was caught because he dumped all of his stolen ballots in one PO Box. To actually cheat with mail-in ballots would require a team of trusted and reliable people dedicated to silence and all avoiding detection. Let's say their goal is stealing 1,000 (still insignificant) ballots. They can't do it at the PO, more alarm bells, so they have to steal from individual mailboxes and every single theft avoid detection by cameras and witnesses. Now assign 50 box thefts each to 20 trusted reliable people who will never speak of it under any circumstance. Cross your fingers now that every agent is 100% successful and never has any temptation to utter a word, not even to a spouse. Sound like a sane risk for 5 years in jail and a $5k fine?

Half the folks here are too apathetic to vote. Why would an illegal alien care even more and risk everything to vote?

IMO voter fraud should be concentrated in the areas where we've witnessed it, such as, gerrymandering, fake electors, insurrections, stacking election boards, and propaganda.
Point i made was that the difficulties in getting voter id are in the bureaucracy: its entirely feasible that you don't need the dmv for voter id in another type of system. I recon a state/government should both require but also guarantee access to government issued identification, and not rely on drivers licence and similar.
In my country we have no birth certificate nor marriage certificate: youre registered at birth and getting married the officiator (either state or state church) access your file in a government registry to show that youre married. You dont have to sign nothing.

Edit: i guess its just a different point of view, i tend to agree on what your saying from a perspective within the US system: the voter fraud thing, id etc seems to always be directed towards "less likely votes to benefit" the imposer of such restrictions. Im talking from perspective outside, where just fixing the whole system could leave this a non issue, where reps could really make an issue out of it cause everybody had access to the right type of id to be able to participate in the electoral process. Wouldnt it be nice to just have this issue fixed in such a way that you couldnt motivate restrictions, punishing laws cause there wasnt even a conceivable problem? When people can vote without id there will always be an opening for someone to screech "Fraud!!!!" - fixing this in a fair way would disarm these attempts and public interest could start looking long and hard at the many other issues like gerrymandering.
But basically i think the discourse is always going to lead to 2 sides partisanship until you fix "winner takes all" dynamics and senators representing 50000 people having the same power as a senator representing 5 million.
Any democracy should be celebrated today what with how the world is turning towards autocrazy but there really seems to be a lot that could be done about the US system and how it elects public representatives. Its basicly geared towards creating two sides, the nos and yes, and any change in this seems to be evaluated in "will our side win or lose with these new changes" rather than will it be in public interest, will representatives represent the public better.

But i guess its hard to implement, both due to history (any place with a history or civil war or dictatorship has it; its clearly visible in US, chile and Spain, the examples ive seen up close) and due to the enormity of US. You litterally have two parties representing the entire continent of people. Imagine if we had the same thing in europe : two parties for every country, where you had yo work out a platform that voters from Uk, poland and malta all could agree upon it? Even in european parliament theyre not able to generate a homgenous right and left block, theres several coalitions of right and left.

Sorry i hope i dont step on anyones toes but it should be obvious that the US system is not perfect to most. The constitution seems to be a holy cow that musnt ever be changed; things must stay the same as the makers intended while in my native country we changed our constitution several times just to make things more practically workable.
 
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Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
Ya it seems a thing that should be done IMO even if I disagree with everything the repugs stand for. Here in Canada ID is required.
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Afaik we just have 3 - government issued personal identification, drivers license or passport. There may be more that i dont know but any Swede i know has one of those. And yes, for a while it was super hard to get (corona backed up demand and 6 month wait) bot democracy survived somehow. Point is that going to the police station and getting your id is done by appointment and a legally valid reason for not being at your work. You can get help with it from social services if not able to drive there.
Its something figureoutable if you dont see the id havers and not id havers as potential voters for one side and guaranteed their access.
Wow - you have specific card for buying alcohol!
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Afaik we just have 3 - government issued personal identification, drivers license or passport. There may be more that i dont know but any Swede i know has one of those. And yes, for a while it was super hard to get (corona backed up demand and 6 month wait) bot democracy survived somehow. Point is that going to the police station and getting your id is done by appointment and a legally valid reason for not being at your work. You can get help with it from social services if not able to drive there.
Its something figureoutable if you dont see the id havers and not id havers as potential voters for one side and guaranteed their access.
Wow - you have specific card for buying alcohol!
Never had to show liquor buying card lol. Just fake one when 16 lol.
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
Never had to show liquor buying card lol. Just fake one when 16 lol.
I just find its amazing to find individuals who dont need anyway to prove officially who they are (like in a bank or anything similar) until they come of legal drinking age and then need a card specific for boozing. :) like we would have to prove who we were for renting movies and such already as early teenagers.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
I just find its amazing to find individuals who dont need anyway to prove officially who they are (like in a bank or anything similar) until they come of legal drinking age and then need a card specific for boozing. :) like we would have to prove who we were for renting movies and such already as early teenagers.
I’m not even sure what that card is lol. Drivers licence is all that’s really needed I believe but I’m over 60 so they dont ask lol.
 
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