Slow growth and soil test results.

[Dudeabides422]

Hi!

First off thanks for taking the time to read this- I'll try to be as complete as possible to give you the full context of my grow situation, but feel free to ask for more info if I've left anything out!

I'm in my second run in a 4x4 coot's mix- 33% peat moss, 33% compost (3 bags Coast of Maine composted manure, 2 bags of their lobster compost, and local worm castings) 33% aeration with this nutrient kit. My first grow, despite no-name random beans and the many errors I made, came out quite well with large yield and quality bud, so I was really excited to start my second round- this time with better genetics. Sadly, I've been plagued with slow growth and a host of symptoms suggesting nutrient deficiencies.

First grow:

Second grow: These are all from ~day 50 +/- 5 days or so.

At first I thought it was a Calcium or Phos deficiency (despite the symptoms originally being more toward the bottom of the plant before moving upwards). I tried using this product but didn't see any real improvement in the symptoms. I also tried some Epsom salts but once again no improvement.


I did get my soil analyzed by my local university's ag department:



Now I am still pretty new to all this so I can't say I know how to interpret all this, but what jumps out at me is the Ph, sodium, and sulfur(!!). From what I thought I understood, one of the benefits of organic gardening is that Ph shouldn't be an issue, but somehow mine has become quite high. Speaking of quite high, the sulfur seems off the charts compared to the expected value... which is odd considering that should lower my Ph? Again, I know next to nothing about all this, so what little I do know might be just enough to bait me into drawing the wrong conclusions, but that seems strange to me.

I've never added anything to this soil Other than the following Build-A-Soil family products (in their suggested amounts):
CowCal
Thrive Yah-Whey
rootwise microbes/enzymes
Quillaja
Build-a-flower Topdress

My town water report:


I run it through a filter to remove the chlorine mostly- whenever I test the Ph it comes out to ~7.5 and from what I understand (again, very little) the low alkalinity value means that the ph value of the water shouldn't have much effect on the ph of my soil.

Other info:
I'm running Viparspectra Ks5000 bar lights on a 20/4 schedule at 45 dli (autoflowers)
I hydrate either by hand or with a bluemat drip tape system, and monitor moisture levels with an irrometer (try to keep things between 8-17bar)
My leaf temp is ~77f with an ambient of 80f during the day. My humidity is 45-50%

I'm really hoping I can get to the bottom of this Sulfer/sodium/PH issue... I've put a lot of time into this soil and I really enjoy the process of growing. If anyone has any thoughts/insight/suggestions about how to improve what you see here let me know!
thanks again for reading!

 

[Mattgrows]

That’s a lot of info, first what are those companion plants?

 

[Dudeabides422]

Clover, vetch, buckwheat mostly.

 

[Mattgrows]

So take my advice and throw it out if others have better…. I’ve grown outdoors with legumes and worked fine, indoors I struggled when it came to flower. The nitrogen begins to affect the plants as there is nothing else that absorbs it except for your plant that doesn’t need it. It’s almost like over fertilizing, then it starts to lock out other nutes or I’ve even seen it reveg or hermie.

I hope others that have some experience reply also, the problem with growing anything that is “no name” as you state is that it’s a weed, it’ll grow. When you get seeds from a reputable source they abide by the rules….

 

[MissinThe90’sStrains]

Looking at your test results, (water first) - your TDS (ppm) is 41 which is super low and actually really great water. It shouldn’t really have any negative impacts on your grow.

Your soil test results show that your soil is very hot in NPK, sulfur, and sodium, but deficient on some micronutrients like iron and copper. My guess is that you have some lockouts. You probably didnt need the gypsum that was in the original mineral mix, and one or more of their amendments is probably cheap and full of salt.

Did you reamend this after your first grow cycle? How much of the starter mix did you use originally?

 

[SnidleyBluntash]

It looks like a strip of yellow in your plot. Maybe the lights too close in one spot ? Maybe pH too low. Maybe looking at the graph it says you are way way over on many nutrients? Like it says optimal is 7 and you have 125

 

[Dudeabides422]

the problem with growing anything that is “no name” as you state is that it’s a weed, it’ll grow. When you get seeds from a reputable source they abide by the rules….

Yeah I was pleasantly surprised with the first round- 3 LSD and 1 Critical banana smoothy. Strong yield and solid smoke. This run is Ztrawberriez, Strawberry Gorilla, Banana Purple Punch and Gelato. Very small plants, but the buds are looking marvelous.


[QUOTE="MissinThe90’sStrains, post: 17581811, member: 1110962"
Did you reamend this after your first grow cycle? How much of the starter mix did you use originally?
[/QUOTE]

I did not reamend- I cut all my cover crop down to the dirt, diced it up and spread it around and let it break down for like 10 days before starting this grow. I gave it a good watering with some enzymes to help jumpstart the process. I did, over the course of the grow, add maybe a cup of worm castings and two cups of the build-a-bloom topdress mix spread around the base of each plant.

 

[Dudeabides422]

It looks like a strip of yellow in your plot. Maybe the lights too close in one spot ? Maybe pH too low. Maybe looking at the graph it says you are way way over on many nutrients? Like it says optimal is 7 and you have 125

So those recommendations are for a different crop- there wasn't a cannabis option on the form so those comparison numbers might not mean much. The light measures pretty even, but the soil ph is definitely off at 7.5...what I don't understand is why my ph is so high when I have so much sulfur.

 

[green_machine_two9er]

Don’t give up. You got it. No till is a very difficult thing to achieve and dial in correctly. It takes years of practice.

I don’t have tons of time now but wanted to reply with a few questions.

1. Whats the volume of water used every day on average. And how does the sides of your bag feel and look? Do you ever get run off? Just any details about your watering practices.
2. Your coots mix base. What were the inputs for peat and aeration?
3. what has been laid down this far? Are you chopping and mulching your old leaves into soil? And amendments?

I'm not familiar with the build a soil stuff anymore, it seems way to complicated compared to what a good coots style soil can do with simple inputs and water.

Also cover cropping is a whole thing in of itself and if your new to living soil sometimes simpler is better.

also last thing. Tests can be super misleading. Sometimes taking you down a rabbit hole that’s causes more problems than you had to begin with.

 

[Dudeabides422]

1. Tough to say, as I use a bluemat drip tape system. I'll occasionally hand water in 2 gallons with various adds like Quillaja, whey based probiotic, mycrobes etc. I check moisture with a blumat digital moisture meter and an irrometer, and am pretty good about keeping it in what I'm told are the desired ranges.

2. Canadian sphagnum peat and grade 4 perlite (pretty chunky). Pumice was price prohibitive sadly. Compost was 2 bags Coast of Maine lobster, 3 composted manure, and 1 bag of local worm castings. Added to that was this kit from buildasoil.

3. I've been mulching pruned leaves and cut cover crop- the worms seem pretty happy. Everything I've added aside from what was listed above: Quillaja, Thrive probiotic, rootwise mycrobe complete/bio phos and enzymes, coconut powder, about four cups of worm castings and a Build-a-flower topdress.

Honestly I like the cover crop... feels like a little terrarium in there and it's pretty

I have to confess- since the $17 test showed some pretty serious issues, I decided to spring for the Logan lab test with a consultation from a crop specialist. It's ultimately not that much considering the investment I've already made here. Worth every penny so far

 

[Satch12]

1. Tough to say, as I use a bluemat drip tape system. I'll occasionally hand water in 2 gallons with various adds like Quillaja, whey based probiotic, mycrobes etc. I check moisture with a blumat digital moisture meter and an irrometer, and am pretty good about keeping it in what I'm told are the desired ranges.

2. Canadian sphagnum peat and grade 4 perlite (pretty chunky). Pumice was price prohibitive sadly. Compost was 2 bags Coast of Maine lobster, 3 composted manure, and 1 bag of local worm castings. Added to that was this kit from buildasoil.

3. I've been mulching pruned leaves and cut cover crop- the worms seem pretty happy. Everything I've added aside from what was listed above: Quillaja, Thrive probiotic, rootwise mycrobe complete/bio phos and enzymes, coconut powder, about four cups of worm castings and a Build-a-flower topdress.

Honestly I like the cover crop... feels like a little terrarium in there and it's pretty

I have to confess- since the $17 test showed some pretty serious issues, I decided to spring for the Logan lab test with a consultation from a crop specialist. It's ultimately not that much considering the investment I've already made here. Worth every penny so far

Would love to hear how the Logan lab test goes for ya

 

[Joey_Gladstoner]

Definitely update the thread when you hear back

 

[Dudeabides422]

Will do for sure!

 

[green_machine_two9er]

1. Tough to say, as I use a bluemat drip tape system. I'll occasionally hand water in 2 gallons with various adds like Quillaja, whey based probiotic, mycrobes etc. I check moisture with a blumat digital moisture meter and an irrometer, and am pretty good about keeping it in what I'm told are the desired ranges.

2. Canadian sphagnum peat and grade 4 perlite (pretty chunky). Pumice was price prohibitive sadly. Compost was 2 bags Coast of Maine lobster, 3 composted manure, and 1 bag of local worm castings. Added to that was this kit from buildasoil.

3. I've been mulching pruned leaves and cut cover crop- the worms seem pretty happy. Everything I've added aside from what was listed above: Quillaja, Thrive probiotic, rootwise mycrobe complete/bio phos and enzymes, coconut powder, about four cups of worm castings and a Build-a-flower topdress.

Honestly I like the cover crop... feels like a little terrarium in there and it's pretty

I have to confess- since the $17 test showed some pretty serious issues, I decided to spring for the Logan lab test with a consultation from a crop specialist. It's ultimately not that much considering the investment I've already made here. Worth every penny so far

My two cents. With big beds.
Sounds like you are pouring in a lot of additives. It may seem like the list of organic additives would be helpful but your just putting way to many things in the cauldron with really limited info on how they will react together.

you have to realize that the volume of soil in that bed will grow multiply rounds, with limited additives. The mineral doesn’t break down for years on some inputs and by trying to hack nature with added enzymes, bio phos, mycos, wetting agents et, you have long term side effects that will be to hard to steer back on track.

I would track water input somehow. That’s huge. Just to know the average % used compared to soil volume is a crucial piece of info in soil. 90% of problems are directly related to watering practice's. The other 10% could be environment. Especially when it comes to slow growth. Maybe touch on your environment as well. And lighting intensity/ source.

also same thing with cover cropping. Unless you have a deep understand g of your bed it’s difficult to manage how those green mulched companion plants will react over time in the soil bed. For example you think mulching back you clover makes since, it’s a N source and boost mycorrhiza, but the unintended consequences could be that you really didn’t need any N fixation and now you have lockouts. Also adding all your trimmed fans leaves seems great, but if your mulch layer is not teaming with microbes and the whole soil food web, from fungi to springtails and everything in between, your green manure won’t break down fast enough. Causing other now compounded issues.

my advice. Take not leave it. KISS.

keep soil super moist but not wet. Don’t be adding anything other than water and ewc and maybe some alfalfa, kelp, malted barley powdered. Add more water when your in doubt.


Environment , sometime we have different results just based on different seasons and how the space works with summer or winter climates.

I see some misting apparatus. What’s the deal with that just trying to increase RH? What’s your temps? The only reason to add humidity imo is if you have temperatures steady in the mid 85-90 degrees. Otherwise you’d be better to just lower temps or raise temps to get in vpd, this typically changes with the season change

also one more thought. Your sodium levels are most likely from manure. I’d stay away from manure for your next bed. Go with straight castings for your 33% humus and your plants will thank you down the round. I know this doesn’t help now

 

[thumper60]

Hi!

First off thanks for taking the time to read this- I'll try to be as complete as possible to give you the full context of my grow situation, but feel free to ask for more info if I've left anything out!

I'm in my second run in a 4x4 coot's mix- 33% peat moss, 33% compost (3 bags Coast of Maine composted manure, 2 bags of their lobster compost, and local worm castings) 33% aeration with this nutrient kit. My first grow, despite no-name random beans and the many errors I made, came out quite well with large yield and quality bud, so I was really excited to start my second round- this time with better genetics. Sadly, I've been plagued with slow growth and a host of symptoms suggesting nutrient deficiencies.

First grow: View attachment 5406726View attachment 5406715

Second grow: View attachment 5406718View attachment 5406719View attachment 5406720View attachment 5406721 These are all from ~day 50 +/- 5 days or so.

At first I thought it was a Calcium or Phos deficiency (despite the symptoms originally being more toward the bottom of the plant before moving upwards). I tried using this product but didn't see any real improvement in the symptoms. I also tried some Epsom salts but once again no improvement.


I did get my soil analyzed by my local university's ag department:

View attachment 5406725

Now I am still pretty new to all this so I can't say I know how to interpret all this, but what jumps out at me is the Ph, sodium, and sulfur(!!). From what I thought I understood, one of the benefits of organic gardening is that Ph shouldn't be an issue, but somehow mine has become quite high. Speaking of quite high, the sulfur seems off the charts compared to the expected value... which is odd considering that should lower my Ph? Again, I know next to nothing about all this, so what little I do know might be just enough to bait me into drawing the wrong conclusions, but that seems strange to me.

I've never added anything to this soil Other than the following Build-A-Soil family products (in their suggested amounts):
CowCal
Thrive Yah-Whey
rootwise microbes/enzymes
Quillaja
Build-a-flower Topdress

My town water report:

View attachment 5406727
I run it through a filter to remove the chlorine mostly- whenever I test the Ph it comes out to ~7.5 and from what I understand (again, very little) the low alkalinity value means that the ph value of the water shouldn't have much effect on the ph of my soil.

Other info:
I'm running Viparspectra Ks5000 bar lights on a 20/4 schedule at 45 dli (autoflowers)
I hydrate either by hand or with a bluemat drip tape system, and monitor moisture levels with an irrometer (try to keep things between 8-17bar)
My leaf temp is ~77f with an ambient of 80f during the day. My humidity is 45-50%

I'm really hoping I can get to the bottom of this Sulfer/sodium/PH issue... I've put a lot of time into this soil and I really enjoy the process of growing. If anyone has any thoughts/insight/suggestions about how to improve what you see here let me know!
thanks again for reading!

Some thing seems off with that test your loaded up with sulfur but your ph is above 7?

 

[Week4@inCharge]

Your Calcium looks to be high, which can block Potassium and Magnesium. Your plants are not absorbing the Calcium from the soil for some reason. Is it from the high sodium? I don't know man, find a way to dissolve that sodium or flush that soil asap. And what Green MAchine said.. soil moist... not wet. One of them Blumat moisture meters will help big time dialing that in.

 

[Dudeabides422]

Thanks again for the advice- As far as the inputs go, while it may seems like a long list of things, I wasn't ever really adding much of them- certainly no more than the listed amounts on the packaging, typically once a week. Will stuff like Quillaja, enzymes etc have adverse effects on the soil?

If I turn off my blumat and hand water only, I typically water two gallons every other day and that seems to keep the soil moisture in the intended range as indicated by my meters as well as feel. In stretch that gets bumped up a bit. Everything I read tells me overwatering is way more common than under so I try to err on the side of under as the consequences of that seem preferable to overwatering.

My light is afull spectrum bar led (viparspecter ks5000) on a 20/4 schedule (autoflowers) and the average dli is between 40/45 as measured on my phone with the photone app... I was skeptical of it's accuracy at first, but I read a thread in a forum somewhere that compared it to high end meters under various lighting conditions and it was surprisingly decent, especially for LEDs.

The mister hose you see there is from a ac infinity humidifier which has a setting that targets a VPD based on a little probe you put in the bed. I've got my target vpd at 1.4 right now as I'm deep in flower- my ambient temps in daytime are around 80-82f (~5 degree leaf offset) and my humidity is between 45-50 generally. I'd like it to be a bit cooler and dryer but that's the best I can do sadly without serious work in my basement.

It would be a shame if my humus input was poor quality- I really tried to follow all the advice I was getting and thought I was using premium ingredients. I guess I'll never know what it was exactly to cause my sodium/sulfer etc to be so damn high but something certainly did.

 

[Dudeabides422]

Some thing seems off with that test your loaded up with sulfur but your ph is above 7?

yeah that's been perplexing me as well... I guess there are different forms of sulfur?

 

[Week4@inCharge]

yeah that's been perplexing me as well... I guess there are different forms of sulfur?

There is, Magnesium Sulphate, Potassium Sulphate, Gypsum, are all a type of Sulfur.

 

[Week4@inCharge]

There's reports or discussions that amino acids will help and/or increase calcium uptake. Those in the know recommend getting the vegan type of aminos. I honestly don't know if this dude is full of it but he sounds legit.