Claw tips, WTF?

Lawrence57

New Member
Newbie here, and need some help diagnosing this claw tip looking leaf. I’m running RDWC system: ph at 5.8, nutes at 258 ppm, water temp at 71.2F; I raised lights slightly after this pic to get -260par. Air temp at 75F and RH at 60%.
 

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DancesWithWeeds

Well-Known Member
Newbie here, and need some help diagnosing this claw tip looking leaf. I’m running RDWC system: ph at 5.8, nutes at 258 ppm, water temp at 71.2F; I raised lights slightly after this pic to get -260par. Air temp at 75F and RH at 60%.
I think I see two things. nitrogen toxicity and the edges of some of the leafs look like the light was too close. I know you said you raised it.

Nitrogen toxicity turn the leafs darker green and the tips curl down. What will probably happen if not corrected is the leafs will brown at the tips, and then around the edges.
 

Lawrence57

New Member
I forget to mention, water level is barely an inch below bottom of net pot. I’m thinking the clay media at bottom of net pot needs to be less moist.
 

DancesWithWeeds

Well-Known Member
I forget to mention, water level is barely an inch below bottom of net pot. I’m thinking the clay media at bottom of net pot needs to be less moist.
I have to bow out there. I know very little about anything but soil, and have to research even for my grows. I really don't want to point you in the wrong direction.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
The water level is fine - I run mine up to ½" below the net pot. No difference to the plant between 1" and ½".

If you're running your plants at 260µmol, your crop will suffer badly. 260µmol is seedling level.

How are you measuring PPFD? I ask because, if you're using an app on your phone, it's liable to be very inaccurate unless you have calibrated it against a known good source. I've tested Photone twice, using my calibrated Apogee as a control. It failed to give a reading against a blurple and, when I tested it against my Growcraft, it came out 16% high. Photone can be calibrated but, if it's not calibrated, there's no way of knowing what the real number is.

258ppm, assume you're on the 500 scale, is very low. At the age of your plants, my plants are at getting least 500ppm (500 scale) and I'm a very strong believer in providing nutes to the "sufficiency" level.

Clawed tips - I don't run into many deficiencies but I think clawed tips is due to nitrogen. That's a Google search.

Water at 71° - are you running sterile, using bennies,…?

Info on nutrients, res management practices, etc. would be helpful.


Handy guide to help set up a grow.

Parameters of Growth.png

More nutes causes problems as does a nutrient level that's too low. The goal is to give plants nutrients in the "sufficiency" range.

Nutrient Sufficiency.png
 
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Lawrence57

New Member
Regarding nutes: I’m currently using the blend shown in attached pic during the veg stage. Yes, I’m using the Photone app for my full spectrum LED’s. Regarding the filter. I use the Staples paper shown in attached pic; a guy on YouTube did some testing using an actual par meter and found this specific brand of paper from Stapes offered only a 10% measurement error.
i definitely want to get in the, “sufficiency range.” I’ll try increasing the nutes to 500ppm and go from there, I guess.
 

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Delps8

Well-Known Member
Regarding nutes: I’m currently using the blend shown in attached pic during the veg stage.
If those are the "factory settings", in terms of the ratios, you should be good to go. I don't have experience with that line of nutes but I suspect that the "give them ¼ the recommended amount" is a good start. My first res is about 300 PPM but the second one is 500-600.

Re. EC vs PPM - "the best" way to express EC is using EC because there's no confusion. My preference is to use PPM. EC changes in increments of 0.1 which is a 50ppm change, assuming the meter is using the 500 scale. By recording in PPM, I get a more accurate picture that there is a change. To avoid confusion, I've adopted the practice of quoting res PPM a la "680/500".

Yes, I’m using the Photone app for my full spectrum LED’s. Regarding the filter. I use the Staples paper shown in attached pic; a guy on YouTube did some testing using an actual par meter and found this specific brand of paper from Stapes offered only a 10% measurement error.
Shane, of Migro, tested Photone soon after it came out and loved it. It has its advantages but I recommend it only with a variety of caveats.

If you can calibrate it against a known good source, that's great. If not, it might be way off and, unless you have a phone + software combination that growlightmeter.com has tested, you do not know how far off it is.

When I tested Photone against my Growcraft X3 flower light, it was reading 16% high when compared to my Apogee. That's all well and good for me but, lacking a "known good", there's no way of knowing.

My advice is to either use the manufacturers recommended values for hang height + dimmer setting or get a uni-T Bluetooth lux meter.

When I tested Photone, they didn't specify the weight of the paper and I tested with with 20, 22, and 24 pound paper. The lack of specificity was one of the issues I brought up when I contacted them. And, if you're using the diffuser, that tells me that you're on an iPhone you your readings might be more accurate than if you're on a random Android device.

i definitely want to get in the, “sufficiency range.” I’ll try increasing the nutes to 500ppm and go from there, I guess.
There's always the argument that there's no need to change EC if you're not seeing a deficiency. My counter to that is that I don't want to wait until my plants are damaged before I make a change. At 258, you're really low and 500 is pretty much in line with PPM for other growers/grows. Having said that, it's good to keep a bucket of RO handy just in case the new res is too strong. I did that in my last grow. I think it was 360 to 600. I got some tip burn and was able to fix it in just a few minutes. I always have a 4 gallon bucket of RO, just in case.

One item of note - only one of the two plants is showing an issue. Any idea why that might be?

BTW, what light are you using?
 

Lawrence57

New Member
If those are the "factory settings", in terms of the ratios, you should be good to go. I don't have experience with that line of nutes but I suspect that the "give them ¼ the recommended amount" is a good start. My first res is about 300 PPM but the second one is 500-600.
I got that recipe on YouTube: HWGrow.com

Re. EC vs PPM - "the best" way to express EC is using EC because there's no confusion. My preference is to use PPM. EC changes in increments of 0.1 which is a 50ppm change, assuming the meter is using the 500 scale. By recording in PPM, I get a more accurate picture that there is a change. To avoid confusion, I've adopted the practice of quoting res PPM a la "680/500".
Not sure what you mean here. On HWGrow.com they use ppm to measure concentration levels of nutes.

Shane, of Migro, tested Photone soon after it came out and loved it. It has its advantages but I recommend it only with a variety of caveats.

If you can calibrate it against a known good source, that's great. If not, it might be way off and, unless you have a phone + software combination that growlightmeter.com has tested, you do not know how far off it is.

When I tested Photone against my Growcraft X3 flower light, it was reading 16% high when compared to my Apogee. That's all well and good for me but, lacking a "known good", there's no way of knowing.

My advice is to either use the manufacturers recommended values for hang height + dimmer setting or get a uni-T Bluetooth lux meter.

I don’t think I’m getting enough light. My AC Infinity manual (see attached) shows a couple of recommended configurations. I’m gonna try increasing light intensity from 40% to 80% and adjust the height 1’-6” above canopy. Getting a par meter would be nice, but the wife would kill me if I spent more $ at this stage. Do you think the other recommended light configuration would be better? 100% at 2’ height?

When I tested Photone, they didn't specify the weight of the paper and I tested with with 20, 22, and 24 pound paper. The lack of specificity was one of the issues I brought up when I contacted them. And, if you're using the diffuser, that tells me that you're on an iPhone you your readings might be more accurate than if you're on a random Android device.

I'm using an Iphone. Now I’m having my doubts on its accuracy.

There's always the argument that there's no need to change EC if you're not seeing a deficiency. My counter to that is that I don't want to wait until my plants are damaged before I make a change. At 258, you're really low and 500 is pretty much in line with PPM for other growers/grows. Having said that, it's good to keep a bucket of RO handy just in case the new res is too strong. I did that in my last grow. I think it was 360 to 600. I got some tip burn and was able to fix it in just a few minutes. I always have a 4 gallon bucket of RO, just in case.
I’m not gonna mess with the nutes, plants look healthy as far as color goes.

One item of note - only one of the two plants is showing an issue. Any idea why that might be?
That one plant is eight days behind in a 28 day total grow so far. So now that its in veg stage, it should be ok to increase the light intensity?

BTW, what light are you using? See attached pic
 

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Delps8

Well-Known Member
I'm using an Iphone. Now I’m having my doubts on its accuracy.
That's wise (says the 67 year old skeptic who's been a skeptic most of his life).

I have no reason to doubt the info that growlightmeter.com ("GLM") puts out about accuracy when they specify a given device. In the emails between their programmer and me, he came across as nothing but forthright so if your phone is one of the models for which they have test results, you should be good to go. On the other hand, lacking that, the only way to know if you're in the ballpark is to compare it to another source.

AC Infinity - love their products but some of their lights aren't for me. I use four or five lights over the course of a grow and I bought them because they have specific characteristics. The spectrum of the light (the different wavelengths that comprise a the spectrum of the light) and the PPFD map (a visual representation of the light output) are the two big factors. Their spectrum is OK - it's heavy in the blue which means you'll have short, compact plants with lots of foliage) but there's a price to pay for that because blue photons reduce yield.

That's a lot of blue but and a hump in orange and "light red" vs the more standard hump in the deep red, at 660nm.

1704669859231.png

The bigger issue is that, like all board lights, it has a hot spot in the middle.

Cannabis thrives under lots of light. The "light saturation point" for cannabis, in ambient CO2, is 800-1000µmol. Above that amount of light, cannabis can't process the incoming photons so leaf damage will eventually occur. To get a grow to run at 1000µmol, you've got to have every thing other than light optimized (that's the parameters of growth that I posted before). With that in mind, check out the PPFD map for the S44 at, say, 14". Somewhere under dead center, the light is putting out 1500µmol. That's useless unless you're running CO2. In the 2' square around the center, the PPFD is 1250±µmol. Again, unless you're running CO2, you can't use that much light. The highest I've ever run a plant was just over 1000µmol so let's say that your grow can handle 1000µmol. To get the center down to 1000µmol, you've got to reduce the dimmer by about 20%. When you do that, the PPFD everywhere in the tent will drop by 20%. That's great in the center but not so great if your plants are in the 1' strip around the edge. At 100%, that's 700µmol but when you drop the dimmer setting, that 700 become 700*0.8 which is only 560.

If you check out the Bugbee or DeBacco videos, you'll see that 600µmol is the minimum recommended PPFD in flower (DeBacco mainly repackages Bugbee's stuff in his videos about light, BTW) but, if you're dropping the dimmer setting to get to 1000 in the middle, you're only at 560. That's not a feature but it's not a bad bug.

Consider two issues - many grows won't handle handle 1kµmol and AC Infinity is…blurring the acutal values in their PPFD map.

First issue - it will take a few grows to get things set up so you can hit 1k. Sure, it's not hard to get a crop but it takes a while to get everything dress right dress so that you can get a grow right at the top end of what the plant can absorb. There's some knowledge and planning involved but, unless you're using clones in a controlled grow environment, there's some luck involved, too. All in all, if you can run 800 or 900 when you start out, you're doing well.

Second - AC Infinity is reporting PPFD using 1' squares. That's a fudge. Industry standard is 6" and with more detail, we would see that those 700±µmols blocks may be 800 on the inside but only 500 at the edge. Those are guesstimates on my part but they illustrate the problem - if your outside 1' of your grow area is averaging 560 µmol, that really reduces the area that you can use to grow.

OK, the above is pretty down in the weeds but it's also completely true. It's not a knock on AC Infinity but it's primarily a function of how board lights work and that's a reason why the industry has moved away from board lights in favor of bar lights.

What's the good thing about board lights? They tend to be cheaper than bar lights. The R&D cost is very low and product cost is low, too, because they're easy to produce, package, and ship.

I would go with a different light but you might be ready to burn me in effigy (I haven't delivered any good news, I realize) and you may not be able to, or want to, return the light.

If you keep the light, just be aware of the light fall off once you leave 2' square area under the light - meaning a square 2' x 2' under the light. You'll still have light at, say, 3' from the center but there's a lot of fall off…and that's where it's really helpful to have a light meter.

Also, you can (sorta) calibrate your Photone setup using your light as a "known good" source. The idea is that at 18" hang height, the PPFD level 1' from center mass is about 1100µmol so you could slide your phone to a spot about 1' from center mass of the light and calibrate Photone against that. I wouldn't say that it's accurate but it's less accurate than not calibrating it. Again, for my money, I'd go with the Uni-T. I appreciate having an Apogee but, in terms of value, the Uni-T is a bargain and it's, in practical terms, as accurate as an Apogee.

If you're willing to swap lights and want to stay at that price point, I'd go with two Vipar Spectra XS-2500 Pros. Each 2500 consists of 2 XS-1500 Pros that are held together and the XS 1500 Pro, a board light, is an absolute stunner. It has a better spectrum and a better PPFD map than the Ionboard and, since it's two sets of lights, it's much easier to deal with plants that are at different heights.

1704669959115.png


Per the PPFD map, the values in the center of the PPFD map are not as high as those in the Ionboard but check out how even the numbers are all the way to the edge. At 11", the PPFD values only go up to 900 but they're at 800 at the very edge of the tent. That uniformity is better than my $600 Growcraft light. Check out the 16" numbers - yes, they're lower, as expected, but even at 16" almost the entire canopy will be > 600µmol.


1704671437144.png
 

Lawrence57

New Member
Thanks for the heads-up on the LED lamp coverage. I’m a newbie and got a good deal on AC Infinity’s 4x4 grow system during Black Friday and S44 light came with the package. I don’t think I can return just the light. Anyways, that does not help the dreaded claw foot leaves I’ve got going on. Gonna try bumping up light intensity per AC Infinity’s recommendation before I mess with the nutes.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the heads-up on the LED lamp coverage. I’m a newbie and got a good deal on AC Infinity’s 4x4 grow system during Black Friday and S44 light came with the package. I don’t think I can return just the light. Anyways, that does not help the dreaded claw foot leaves I’ve got going on. Gonna try bumping up light intensity per AC Infinity’s recommendation before I mess with the nutes.
If it's a kit, it's yours.

Re. the light - 18" a 80% will get you >800µmol± and even high directly under the center. That's too high for those plants. I use a 14" hang height and, in early veg, my plants are at 400-500µmol.

Re. clawing - open question is still why that one plant and not the other. Was something different in watering, different nutes, or…?
 
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