Hamas offensive against Israel
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cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
A suggestion why Palestinian refugees are not welcome in neighboring countries
apnews.com
Why Egypt and other Arab countries are unwilling to take in Palestinian refugees from Gaza
As desperate Palestinians in sealed-off Gaza try to find refuge under Israel’s relentless bombardment in retaliation for Hamas’ brutal Oct. 7 attack, many ask why neighboring Egypt or other Arab countries don’t take them in.
apnews.com
BudmanTX
Well-Known Member
good question...figured Jordan and Egypt would high on the list since they are closest, especially Egypt with that crossing......on a good note Egypt and Isreal made a deal bout the humanitarian aid and the behest of Biden...Egypt said they would open the crossing and lets aid trucks come through....A suggestion why Palestinian refugees are not welcome in neighboring countries
Why Egypt and other Arab countries are unwilling to take in Palestinian refugees from Gaza
As desperate Palestinians in sealed-off Gaza try to find refuge under Israel’s relentless bombardment in retaliation for Hamas’ brutal Oct. 7 attack, many ask why neighboring Egypt or other Arab countries don’t take them in.
printer
Well-Known Member
Israelis are saying they will not let the aid come in until the hostages are released.
BudmanTX
Well-Known Member
didn't know that....found this, this morning....didn't mention anything...
Aid convoy set to enter Gaza a ‘drop in the ocean of need’ says WHO
Twenty trucks preparing to enter Gaza through Rafah crossing, but Israel says aid will halt if seized by Hamas
www.theguardian.com
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Look what they did for Lebanon and even Jordan had problems, wherever they are is a base for terrorism and attacks on Israel or even America, they bring their problems with them and are a politically destabilizing force. Decades of terrorism inflicted on the international community have had exacted their price on an aggrieved people with poor leadership. That leadership is fascistic these days and democracy cannot survive among them in such an environment, anybody advocating alternative solutions would be killed, by HAMAS or by regular people, just like with Trump and his band of imaginarily aggrieved morons.A suggestion why Palestinian refugees are not welcome in neighboring countries
Why Egypt and other Arab countries are unwilling to take in Palestinian refugees from Gaza
As desperate Palestinians in sealed-off Gaza try to find refuge under Israel’s relentless bombardment in retaliation for Hamas’ brutal Oct. 7 attack, many ask why neighboring Egypt or other Arab countries don’t take them in.
k0rps
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing ~A suggestion why Palestinian refugees are not welcome in neighboring countries
Why Egypt and other Arab countries are unwilling to take in Palestinian refugees from Gaza
As desperate Palestinians in sealed-off Gaza try to find refuge under Israel’s relentless bombardment in retaliation for Hamas’ brutal Oct. 7 attack, many ask why neighboring Egypt or other Arab countries don’t take them in.
A few highlights from the article:
Jordan’s King Abdullah II gave a similar message a day earlier, saying, “No refugees in Jordan, no refugees in Egypt.”
Their refusal is rooted in fear that Israel wants to force a permanent expulsion of Palestinians into their countries and nullify Palestinian demands for statehood. El-Sissi also said a mass exodus would risk bringing militants into Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula, from where they might launch attacks on Israel, endangering the two countries’ 40-year-old peace treaty.
NO GUARANTEE OF RETURN
That’s in part because there’s no clear scenario for how this war will end.
Israel says it intends to destroy Hamas for its bloody rampage in its southern towns. But it has given no indication of what might happen afterward and who would govern Gaza. That has raised concerns that it will reoccupy the territory for a period, fueling further conflict.
The Israeli military said Palestinians who followed its order to flee northern Gaza to the strip’s southern half would be allowed back to their homes after the war ends.
Egypt is not reassured.
El-Sissi said fighting could last for years if Israel argues it hasn’t sufficiently crushed militants. He proposed that Israel house Palestinians in its Negev Desert, which neighbors the Gaza Strip, until it ends its military operations.
“Israel’s lack of clarity regarding its intentions in Gaza and the evacuation of the population is in itself problematic,” said Riccardo Fabiani, Crisis Group International’s North Africa Project Director. “This confusion fuels fears in the neighborhood.”
Egypt has pushed for Israel to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza, and Israel said Wednesday that it would, though it didn’t say when. According to United Nations, Egypt, which is dealing with a spiraling economic crisis, already hosts some 9 million refugees and migrants, including roughly 300,000 Sudanese who arrived this year after fleeing their country’s war.
But Arab countries and many Palestinians also suspect Israel might use this opportunity to force permanent demographic changes to wreck Palestinian demands for statehood in Gaza, the West Bank and east Jerusalem, which was also captured by Israel in 1967.
El-Sissi repeated warnings Wednesday that an exodus from Gaza was intended to “eliminate the Palestinian cause … the most important cause of our region.” He argued that if a demilitarized Palestinian state had been created long ago in negotiations, there would not be war now.
“All historical precedent points to the fact that when Palestinians are forced to leave Palestinian territory, they are not allowed to return back,” said H.A. Hellyer, a senior associate fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “Egypt doesn’t want to be complicit in ethnic cleansing in Gaza.”
Why Egypt and other Arab countries are unwilling to take in Palestinian refugees from Gaza
As desperate Palestinians in sealed-off Gaza try to find refuge under Israel’s relentless bombardment in retaliation for Hamas’ brutal Oct. 7 attack, many ask why neighboring Egypt or other Arab countries don’t take them in.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
That is why Joe is there to avoid genocide and use the office of the POTUS to save lives and avoid a wider war. He would have more influence if he didn't have so many knives in his back at home while conducting foreign policy, many wielded by outright traitors. People can die of thirst and hunger, it makes them just as dead as with bullets and bombs. Do the Israelis want to preside over another Warsaw ghetto or other genocide through mass starvation and privation? Joe wants to get aid moving and avoid a humanitarian catastrophe and deserves some credit for his efforts, maybe even a Nobel if he saves a million lives and prevents a wider war.didn't know that....found this, this morning....didn't mention anything...
Aid convoy set to enter Gaza a ‘drop in the ocean of need’ says WHO
Twenty trucks preparing to enter Gaza through Rafah crossing, but Israel says aid will halt if seized by Hamas
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I’m guessing the bigger problem is one of Israel’s policy. Once Palestinians have been “temporarily” displaced, they haven’t been allowed to go back.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
It's one reason why this forever war does not interest me much, it is too ambiguous for anybody to take a side except for the humanitarian one. I know the history and generally enough about it and it doesn't involve liberal democracy on either side, but the Israelis are closer to it than Hamas is. It's about land and keeping Palestinians off it, the winner of the war determined property rights and the Palestinians have few rights in Israel. American presidents have tried to get them a homeland in the west bank as did Jordan, but Israel basically ripped it off and is seeking to change the "facts on the ground" with settlements in the west bank by fanatics.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
It's true, I believe, that Israel's fascist government would very much support the removal of all Palestinians from the Gaza and the West Bank. That is the genocide they want. So, yes, I agree with what you just said but you are guilty of cherry picking. For their own reasons, Hamas doesn't accept this idea. Nor does Jordan or Egypt.
The other reason why Egypt and Jordan can't allow Israel's policy of Palestinian genocide to proceed and accept the displaced population in their countries is stated later:
With the Sinai insurgency largely put down, “Cairo does not want to have a new security problem on its hands in this problematic region,” Fabiani said.
They basically say this proposal is unworkable. For many reasons, Israel's policy of forcing the mass exodus of Palestinians into bordering countries will not give this region peace and everybody involved know this. Egypt and Jordan are being realistic when they say they will not allow this to happen. Israel knows this. The issue is moot and the subject is just propaganda chaff.
printer
Well-Known Member
Not really sure what is what, different articles say different things. Here it said a limited amount, Netanyahu threading the needle between aid and no aid.didn't know that....found this, this morning....didn't mention anything...
Aid convoy set to enter Gaza a ‘drop in the ocean of need’ says WHO
Twenty trucks preparing to enter Gaza through Rafah crossing, but Israel says aid will halt if seized by Hamas
Netanyahu: Aid from Israel to Gaza will be blocked until hostages return
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he told President Biden during their meeting Wednesday that aid from Israel to Gaza would continue to be blocked until the hostages are released.
“Regarding the captives, I clarified three things for President Biden,” Netanyahu said in a speech Thursday. “First, I demanded the return of our captives, and we are working together for their return in every way possible.”
“Second, until their return, we demand Red Cross visits for our captives,” he continued. “Third, we will not allow humanitarian assistance, in the form of food and medicines, from our territory to the Gaza Strip.”
Following a request from Biden, Netanyahu said Wednesday that a limited amount of humanitarian aid would be allowed into Gaza from Egypt.
Egypt, the only country other than Israel to share a border with Gaza, has been preparing its aid. Israel’s military has been adamant that it will allow Egypt to deliver the aid — as long as it is only food, water and medicine.
Biden, speaking in Tel Aviv, announced the aid deal from Egypt and confirmed $100 million of U.S. funding for assistance to civilians in Gaza. Biden spoke to Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi, who would allow up to 20 trucks of humanitarian aid to enter Gaza at the Rafah border crossing.
An Israeli military spokesperson said Thursday that the families of the more than 200 people believed to have been taken hostage by Hamas and taken into Gaza had been notified.
The war, one of the deadliest in the Gaza region, began on Oct. 7 after Hamas militants entered Israel and conducted a surprise attack, and Netanyahu vowed to destroy the group.
The Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry said 3,785 Palestinians have been killed and nearly 12,500 others have been wounded. More than 1,400 people in Israel were also killed in the initial attack.
More than 1 million Palestinians, roughly half of Gaza’s population, have also been forced to flee areas in the north after Israel told them to evacuate.
Israel’s airstrikes on the region continued early Thursday morning, including in areas declared as “safe zones.”
Netanyahu: Aid from Israel to Gaza will be blocked until hostages return
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he told President Biden during their meeting Wednesday that aid from Israel to Gaza would continue to be blocked until the hostages are released. “Reg…
thehill.com
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Joe is putting on heat and making offers to everybody concerned to get aid flowing to avoid mass death in Gaza and a subsequent wider war.Not really sure what is what, different articles say different things. Here it said a limited amount, Netanyahu threading the needle between aid and no aid.
Netanyahu: Aid from Israel to Gaza will be blocked until hostages return
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he told President Biden during their meeting Wednesday that aid from Israel to Gaza would continue to be blocked until the hostages are released.
“Regarding the captives, I clarified three things for President Biden,” Netanyahu said in a speech Thursday. “First, I demanded the return of our captives, and we are working together for their return in every way possible.”
“Second, until their return, we demand Red Cross visits for our captives,” he continued. “Third, we will not allow humanitarian assistance, in the form of food and medicines, from our territory to the Gaza Strip.”
Following a request from Biden, Netanyahu said Wednesday that a limited amount of humanitarian aid would be allowed into Gaza from Egypt.
Egypt, the only country other than Israel to share a border with Gaza, has been preparing its aid. Israel’s military has been adamant that it will allow Egypt to deliver the aid — as long as it is only food, water and medicine.
Biden, speaking in Tel Aviv, announced the aid deal from Egypt and confirmed $100 million of U.S. funding for assistance to civilians in Gaza. Biden spoke to Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi, who would allow up to 20 trucks of humanitarian aid to enter Gaza at the Rafah border crossing.
An Israeli military spokesperson said Thursday that the families of the more than 200 people believed to have been taken hostage by Hamas and taken into Gaza had been notified.
The war, one of the deadliest in the Gaza region, began on Oct. 7 after Hamas militants entered Israel and conducted a surprise attack, and Netanyahu vowed to destroy the group.
The Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry said 3,785 Palestinians have been killed and nearly 12,500 others have been wounded. More than 1,400 people in Israel were also killed in the initial attack.
More than 1 million Palestinians, roughly half of Gaza’s population, have also been forced to flee areas in the north after Israel told them to evacuate.
Israel’s airstrikes on the region continued early Thursday morning, including in areas declared as “safe zones.”
Netanyahu: Aid from Israel to Gaza will be blocked until hostages return
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he told President Biden during their meeting Wednesday that aid from Israel to Gaza would continue to be blocked until the hostages are released. “Reg…
k0rps
Well-Known Member
Pointing out how Israeli media has been changing stories.. from their digital warfare front they celebrated the bombing of a Hamas base (screenshots saved), then deleted, then back tracking bc "Israel doesn't bomb hospitals".
Timestamped video was called out and taken down. Israeli spokesperson comes on for damage control before POTUS arrives. Biden comes to confirm (after admitting to seeing pictures of beheaded babies to then saying he didn't) he saw enough evidence to conclude IDF had nothing to do with it..
And yet, the evidence of other facilities being bombed shows Israeli military hasn't had a problem with it. We see no headlines of the 58 other healthcare facilities targeted by IDF. Or 170 educational centers..
Have you've seen the video and listened to the audio of the explosion? That "whoosh" just before hitting does not sound like a rocket misfiring OR their other reason: a rocket broke down mid flight and fell from the sky. I'm no weapons expert, but it sounds like a missile or the sound of a directed object moving towards a target. This hospital was part of 22 hospitals warned to evacuate within days prior.
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Mephisto666
Well-Known Member
I sympathize with the Palestinians, but not so much for the Israelites and their government.
Who made that butcher Netanyahu the longest serving PM in Israels history?
A man know for his vitriol against Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular.
In his time in office he has doubled the Jewish population in the West Bank/Area C in spite of the US requesting not to do so and in violation of international law.
And how many peace conferance did he oversee in his 12 fucking years?
One, and at that one he said he would slow/stop settlement building..
And he lied.
He annexed the Golan Heights, another contested area and had Trump move the US Embassy to Jerusalem on a whim, and he got it.
Nope, anyone that elected that piece of garbage time and time again warrants no sympathy from me.
The only one that gains my sympathy in this war are the Palestinians,
They deserve it.
This must be watched.
Who made that butcher Netanyahu the longest serving PM in Israels history?
A man know for his vitriol against Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular.
In his time in office he has doubled the Jewish population in the West Bank/Area C in spite of the US requesting not to do so and in violation of international law.
And how many peace conferance did he oversee in his 12 fucking years?
One, and at that one he said he would slow/stop settlement building..
And he lied.
He annexed the Golan Heights, another contested area and had Trump move the US Embassy to Jerusalem on a whim, and he got it.
Nope, anyone that elected that piece of garbage time and time again warrants no sympathy from me.
The only one that gains my sympathy in this war are the Palestinians,
They deserve it.
This must be watched.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
I'm skeptical of whatever "evidence" is presented by either side on u-tube vids. I'm skeptical, not cynical, meaning that I am willing to believe either side but have not seen the evidence or heard enough from credible sources to decide who is right or wrong. What I think doesn't matter whatsoever in the larger picture, so I'm in no hurry either. I will say that the propaganda victory belongs to Hamas. I concede that but propaganda is designed to influence, not convince. And I'm not convinced. I think Biden is a credible source, so you now know which way I'm leaning. But I'm not convinced.
Let me dissect your post.
"beheaded babies". Goodness. That's a strong appeal to emotion, both from the Israeli "ministry of truth" propaganda organ and. as you use it, as an emotional backlash when that claim is walked back or denied after reports of that crime could not be verified, In fact no verifiable evidence could be presented to show the claim is true. Yes, Biden was fooled by the earlier reports that came from hard core backers of Israel's fascist government and his statements were walked back later, after the claim could not be verified. This is war, early news of events can't be trusted and people make mistakes when they jump on the first news. Also, the fake news came from Netanyahu's propaganda machine, not the Israeli military, so your beef about the IDF is not valid.
That said, propaganda win for Netanyahu. He managed to tie this attack to other heinous crimes committed by ISIS in an appeal to Islamophobia. On the other hand, who really cares? There are many reports from reporters working for credible news organization that babies were killed.
According to Oren Ziv, a reporter with the left-leaning Israeli news organization +972 Magazine, he did not hear from soldiers who saw the carnage that babies were decapitated but they did report babies were killed.
I'm getting a lot of question [sic] about the reports of "Hamas beheaded babies” that were published after the media tour in the village. During the tour we didn’t see any evidence of this, and the army spokesperson or commanders also didn’t mention any such incidents. During the tour, journalists were allowed to speak to the hundreds of soldiers on site, without the supervision of the army's spokesperson team. [...] Soldiers I spoke with in Kfar Aza yesterday didn't mention "beheaded babies”. [...]
This doesn't mean that war crimes were not committed. The scene in Kfar Aza was horrific, with dozens of bodies of Israelis murdered in their homes.
So, that's enough for me. Dozens of people were murdered in their homes in an attack that fits the definition of a war crime committed by Hamas soldiers/militants/terrorists. That's enough for me to find Hamas guilty and not worthy of holding power in Gaza. As I've shown in this part of my post, you are either trying to influence through appeals to emotion or have been influenced by appeals to emotion and therefore, your posts are part propaganda. It won't work on me. If fact it dissuades me from taking you seriously.
Israel's bombing of civilians in Gaza is also a war crime. There is no need to convince me of that.
Please take my earlier post regarding the propaganda victory that Hamas scored regarding the explosion of the hospital as my reply to your claim that the video "proves" the explosion was an IDF missile. I'm not ready to go there with you and am leaning the other way on that matter.
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DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Joe is a good guy and embodies liberal democratic values, it is also in America's interests to promote peace and reduce international terrorism. Right now, his primary concern and that of other leaders on the ground there is to get American hostages released, moderate the Israeli response to Gaza's civilian population and make sure humanitarian aid gets in if the people can't get out. Lately Gaza appears an ironic repeat on a grander scale of the Warsaw Ghetto the Jews in Europe endured and died in. In this conflict the only side a reasonable person can be on is the humanitarian side.
printer
Well-Known Member
To get away from the latest hype I search previous to this engagement.
"Defensively, Hamas will use tunnels to escape IDF observation and attack. Any Hamas military capability that survives Israel’s current air campaign will mostly be deep underground. Hamas will have already placed its leadership, fighters, headquarters, communication, weapons, and supplies like water, food, ammunition in its tunnel complexes to prepare for the ground assault by Israeli forces. The tunnels will allow fighters to move between a series of fighting positions safely and freely under massive buildings, even after the IDF drop thousand-pound bombs on them. Hamas tunnels often have generator power, air ventilation, water pipes, and stockpiles of food that will allow the group’s fighters to better withstand the most basic challenges, like normal exhaustion, that result from urban siege and isolation. Hamas leaders and fighters will use the tunnels to remain mobile to escape entire sections of the combat area when they feel they are about to be decisively attacked or surrounded. Importantly, Hamas has also dug a large portion of its tunnels under, and connected to, civilian sites like school, hospitals, and mosques in dense urban areas. Among other reasons for doing so, this is part of its defensive lawfare strategy."
Underground Nightmare: Hamas Tunnels and the Wicked Problem Facing the IDF - Modern War Institute
If Israel launches a ground campaign into Gaza to clear the dense areas of Hamas military capability—and all indications are that it intends to—Israeli forces can expect to face a […]
mwi.westpoint.edu
Civilians Paid A Steep Price For Destroyed Tunnels In Israeli-Hamas Conflict
MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
During the recent conflict in Gaza, the Israeli military focused on a key target - hundreds of miles of tunnels, tunnels used by Hamas and other Islamist militants. Israel says the tunnels signify a new type of warfare it has to counter, but efforts to destroy the underground networks are having serious unintended consequences, as NPR's Jackie Northam reports from Jerusalem.
JACKIE NORTHAM, BYLINE: Israel has long known Hamas had a tunnel system in Gaza. For years, it was seen as rudimentary and mostly used to smuggle supplies in from Egypt. But the tunnels turned into an urgent threat seven years ago during a war between the two sides when Hamas used them to burrow into Israel, launching surprise attacks and ambushing soldiers?
DAPHNE RICHEMOND-BARAK: Cross-border tunnels to be discovered, I think it epitomizes the meaning of terror and terrorizing the civilian population.
NORTHAM: Daphné Richemond-Barak is a law professor at IDC Herzliya, a private research college near Tel Aviv, and wrote a book on tunnels called "Underground Warfare." She said Israel sealed off the cross-border tunnels and then turned its attention to an underground network inside Gaza. At the same time, Hamas and other militant groups were rapidly expanding that network.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
UNIDENTIFIED MILITANT: (Non-English language spoken).
NORTHAM: This documentary by Al Jazeera shows armed militants moving through tall, reinforced concrete tunnels. The Israeli military estimates Hamas has roughly 300 miles of tunnels running under Gaza. It calls it the Metro. Spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Conricus told reporters the Metro is critical to Hamas's military activities.
JONATHAN CONRICUS: That is how they move from one location to the other. That is how they control and manage the operations. That is how they provide the rockets to the rocket launchers which fire towards Israel. In short, it's really the backbone of Hamas's system and, hence, its importance.
NORTHAM: Richemond-Barak, who is also associated with West Point's Modern War Institute, says Hamas cannot possibly outgun Israel's military power in a conventional war, so uses the tunnels in an effort to even up the playing field.
RICHEMOND-BARAK: It's the great equalizer, so it enables Hamas operatives to operate undetected. And this way it's impossible to gather intelligence as to what their future operations might look like. So it's the best way to re-establish a level of symmetry between the two sides.
NORTHAM: The Israeli military launched more than a thousand airstrikes during the conflict last month, repeatedly saying a priority was to destroy the tunnel network. But it acknowledges it took out only about 20%. Civilians paid a steep price for that. Such was the case on Wahda Street in Gaza City. The military says it was targeting tunnels, and when they collapsed, it caused the foundations of homes above them to collapse. Gazan officials say 42 people, including women and children, died in the attack.
LAMYAA KAWLAK: (Non-English language spoken).
NORTHAM: Lamyaa Kawlak says she was sleeping when the airstrikes started. Shells started falling around them. They weren't given any warning. She and her children ran from the building. All the buildings around them began falling.
KAWLAK: (Non-English language spoken).
NORTHAM: Saleh Hijazi is with Amnesty International in the West Bank city of Ramallah. He says the Israeli military should have taken precautions - choosing weaponry that could have spared civilian lives.
SALEH HIJAZI: We need to examine that instance, you know, on its own and to see whether that target was, first, a legitimate military target and whether the attack was proportionate. So the focus needs to be on Israel and its actions.
NORTHAM: Atai Shelach is a former commander of an elite unit which deals with the tunnels. He says the military tries to limit civilian casualties, but says this is war, and the tunnels are a new front in the battle with Hamas.
ATAI SHELACH: The tunnel is here to stay. OK. It's here to stay. And they will improve their abilities and capabilities. And of course, our technologies and our capabilities hopefully will be much better.
NORTHAM: But it's likely Israel and Hamas will face off again. Tunnels will be the target, and civilians who live above them will be at risk. Jackie Northam, NPR News, Jerusalem.
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k0rps
Well-Known Member
Being skeptical is what (I think) I've been trying to do. Let's see what the story is in the coming weeks.
The scene was horrific, no denying. There is no clear evidence who did ALL the damage. Yes, there was a Hamas attack. According to a first hand account from Israeli civilian, Yasmin Porat, she explained IDF had killed their own civilians.
Who is more likely to admit the Truth? The IDF with an agenda, media outlets with paid sponsors or an Israeli woman who just had her life crushed by a terrible event? Hoping more evidence comes through BUT most reporters were banned from taking pictures (first hand evidence) of the scenes. Hard to say unless we were there...
Yes. Hamas (or any fascist gov) should NOT hold power in Gaza (or in the world). It is clear they were put into a corner and resorted to violence (which doesn't justify or mean I support) instead of having rational conversations with Israeli government.
It seems very evident the people in Israel's right wing government (fascists), who don't want Palestine to exist slash support extremist Zionist settlers, are not willing to make peace and actually allow Palestinians the right to live and cultivate the land (olive trees) they've been living on for many many centuries. Hamas is reacting to an occupying force... Not the other way around. Still does not make Oct 7th acceptable. But neither are airstrikes on innocent lives.
We shall see
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