War
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DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Hitting artillery with drones requires a long range and reports say the Russians are keeping their remaining tanks well back from the front. It could mean the Ukrainians have developed a drone system that can go for 20 miles behind the lines and drop mortar rounds. This could cover the active depth of the Russian defensive lines and take out targets at night with a single mortar round or improvised explosive, saves a lot of 155mm shells.
news.yahoo.com
Ukrainian Digital Ministry posts footage of secret Ukrainian-made drone
Mykhailo Fedorov, Ukraine's Minister of Digital Transformation, has posted a video showing a secret Ukrainian-made drone in operation. Source: Fedorov on Telegram Quote: "A secret Ukrainian-made drone is at work.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
I figured the Russians would use airpower when they got desperate, where was it before and why? How much do they have if Ukrainian AA starts taking it down? They are losing on the ground badly now and the breech in their lines where penetrated might be wide enough to bring in BULK AA missiles and I think they have a few and their range is around that of a Russian glide bomb I believe. Ambushing some Russian planes might make them gun shy and driving them back from Ukraine with drones helps too.
The Russian airforce must be under a lot of heat to do something, anything, the stop the Ukrainian advance on the ground, because they have been under preforming by a lot from day one. Corruption affects air forces and Navies more than armies, because there is more equipment to steal, the Russians sell arms overseas that needs spares and there is an online market for that too. I think the internet was a big factor in the disintegration and corruption of the Russian armed forces, it made it easy to sell military equipment online to the highest bidder.
printer
Well-Known Member
Uh, were you paying attention? The Russians are not only using these bombs at the main battle.
Russia's newest weapon is changing the course of Ukraine war
Moscow's use of glide bombs and their below-the-radar effectiveness could force Kyiv to rewrite its counter-offensive plans
But most conventionally it is believed the glide bombs used by Russia have a range between 30 and 45 miles.
Intelligence gathered by Ukraine shows that most glide bomb attacks are unleashed from 25-30 miles inside Russian territory, at which point the warplanes turn back to avoid coming into the range of Kyiv’s air-defences.
“The stand-off the new improvised weapons give means that the air defence threat that has previously constrained the use of strike and attack aircraft is somewhat mitigated,” Justin Crump, a military analyst at the intelligence consultancy Sibylline, told the Telegraph.
As Ukraine transitions from its stocks of Soviet-era air defence systems, Kyiv finds itself with only a small number of medium-to-long range systems to defend against aerial attacks.
Most of its short-range air defence systems are on the front line, while longer-range missile systems are far behind the front to defend cities and keep them out of range of Russian artillery and drone attacks.
Western military experts say the glide bombs offer less radar return than a conventional long-range weapon, making them harder for Ukraine to track. Radars don’t always pick up objects flying at low altitude, and the glide bombs' small size makes them harder to see on the radar.
Electronic jamming and anti-radar techniques deployed by the Russians mean Kyiv’s forces only have a limited window to target the bombs as they unmask. The attacks also raise questions in Kyiv over whether air-defence systems should be moved away from population centres to support the upcoming counter-offensive.
One solution would be to engage incoming glide bombs with Patriot or other air-defence missile systems.
But those SAM units are valuable, their rockets expensive, and they have to be kept well away from the front line so they are not vulnerable to Russian strikes.
With the Patriot systems, which have been donated by the US and Netherlands, in place, Ukraine’s forces also have the option of moving more air-defence assets to the front line.
The best solution, according to Col Ihnat, would be modern Western fighter jets - for logistical reasons Ukraine favours the F-16 - that have longer range radars and air-to-air missiles than the ageing Sukhoi Su-27s and MiG-29s Ukraine currently relies on.
“Just one or two would be enough to deter them, because the Russians would see that a couple of these things are in the air and they would avoid approaching,” he said.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Do you think it will stop the Ukrainian offensive in the south? I don't and the use of the Russian airforce at this late a date is a sign of desperation on the ground. They were ineffectual from day one and the fact Ukraine still has an airforce is testament to that. The Ukrainians may risk an AA defense system or two in the breech and bring down some planes. I question how sustainable the air attacks are for the Russians and if they become a big enough problem then NATO will supply the means to deal with them until the F16s arrive and that could be a surprise for the Russians too, with an unexpected arrival of some fighter versions.Uh, were you paying attention? The Russians are not only using these bombs at the main battle.
Russia's newest weapon is changing the course of Ukraine war
Moscow's use of glide bombs and their below-the-radar effectiveness could force Kyiv to rewrite its counter-offensive planswww.telegraph.co.uk
But most conventionally it is believed the glide bombs used by Russia have a range between 30 and 45 miles.
Intelligence gathered by Ukraine shows that most glide bomb attacks are unleashed from 25-30 miles inside Russian territory, at which point the warplanes turn back to avoid coming into the range of Kyiv’s air-defences.
“The stand-off the new improvised weapons give means that the air defence threat that has previously constrained the use of strike and attack aircraft is somewhat mitigated,” Justin Crump, a military analyst at the intelligence consultancy Sibylline, told the Telegraph.
As Ukraine transitions from its stocks of Soviet-era air defence systems, Kyiv finds itself with only a small number of medium-to-long range systems to defend against aerial attacks.
Most of its short-range air defence systems are on the front line, while longer-range missile systems are far behind the front to defend cities and keep them out of range of Russian artillery and drone attacks.
Western military experts say the glide bombs offer less radar return than a conventional long-range weapon, making them harder for Ukraine to track. Radars don’t always pick up objects flying at low altitude, and the glide bombs' small size makes them harder to see on the radar.
Electronic jamming and anti-radar techniques deployed by the Russians mean Kyiv’s forces only have a limited window to target the bombs as they unmask. The attacks also raise questions in Kyiv over whether air-defence systems should be moved away from population centres to support the upcoming counter-offensive.
One solution would be to engage incoming glide bombs with Patriot or other air-defence missile systems.
But those SAM units are valuable, their rockets expensive, and they have to be kept well away from the front line so they are not vulnerable to Russian strikes.
With the Patriot systems, which have been donated by the US and Netherlands, in place, Ukraine’s forces also have the option of moving more air-defence assets to the front line.
The best solution, according to Col Ihnat, would be modern Western fighter jets - for logistical reasons Ukraine favours the F-16 - that have longer range radars and air-to-air missiles than the ageing Sukhoi Su-27s and MiG-29s Ukraine currently relies on.
“Just one or two would be enough to deter them, because the Russians would see that a couple of these things are in the air and they would avoid approaching,” he said.
The objective here is not just to win and kick the Russians out of Ukraine but to attrit them materially to the point where they will be much less of a future military threat to their neighbors, even the smaller ones. Is it gonna entail Ukrainian losses, for sure, these glide bombs are 500kg and make a big hole in the ground to make up for inaccuracies. Can they be countered? For sure with F16s and it might be a way to get some early, but until they do, the best they can do is ambush them with a forward placed BULK or similar systems.
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DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Why killing Russians is not as important as destroying their irreplicable military equipment, particularly the newer stuff, a longer war will do this and keep Russia under sanctions until their economy breaks as well. They will always have enough fools and slaves to send to Ukraine as cannon fodder but equipping them with more than swords and shields could be an issue. Unequipped, they would be little better than armed civilians facing a professional military that can kill most of them before they even see them, or they get out of Russia.
I sometimes see Westerners saying that the more human losses Russia sustains, the more injured and traumatized Russians return back home, the sooner public opinion will change and Russians will start opposing the war.
Many Ukrainians, including myself, have thought so, too, in the first months of the war. We addressed Russian mothers, Russian women, told them that their sons and husbands will be killed or maimed. We got very little feedback and virtually no results.
For the Russians these dead soldiers are "heroes who protected the Motherland". And Russians choose to see them this way, empowered by propaganda and ideology - Russia is very good at hero-izing the dead. They refuse to realize that it was their country that invaded another state, their country that kills, loots, rapes and injures civilians in Ukraine; that these Russian soldiers are murderers and villains. In fact, for many of Russian women life becomes better with their men gone - a lot of them had drinking problems, abused their families, did not work proper jobs. Usually the people who get mobilized or sign contracts with the Russian army are from specific social circles - the educated middle class (a broad generalization) is not keen to go to war. Usually it's poorer men from distant villages who are in the trenches. So now these women can live freely and get a substantial amount of money from the government, living with a glossed over memory of their son, husband or father. In a way, that reassures them that Russia is doing everything right. And as Russia has over 140 million people, it has a virtually endless resource of cannon fodder.
As for the injured - Russia mostly hides its invalids inside, so no one sees them and remembers them. After WWII people who lost limbs or had other deformities were even sent to special "colonies" so they wouldn't get in contrast with the shiny myth of the great victory. What Russians don't see, they don't care about.
So these incredible losses of the Russian army serve more to mobilize and inspire the Russian society and increase Putin's approval ratings. This prolongs the war, and the longer the war lasts, the harder it will be to overpower Russia. And every day Russia becomes a bigger problem for the whole world.
What to do, then?
It's important to destroy, disrupt and break down Russia's military potential - as quickly as possible. That is what Ukraine is doing with attacking plants that produce military goods, breaking down logistical chains, taking down headquarters and so on. That is why it's so important for Ukraine to get long-range missiles.
Another crucial thing is combating Russian propaganda - it is the source of war and a huge part of it. Russian propagandists are war criminals. Severe personal sanctions are needed not just against the most known figures but against everyone who serves that machine.
I sometimes see Westerners saying that the more human losses Russia sustains, the more injured and traumatized Russians return back home, the sooner public opinion will change and Russians will start opposing the war.
Many Ukrainians, including myself, have thought so, too, in the first months of the war. We addressed Russian mothers, Russian women, told them that their sons and husbands will be killed or maimed. We got very little feedback and virtually no results.
For the Russians these dead soldiers are "heroes who protected the Motherland". And Russians choose to see them this way, empowered by propaganda and ideology - Russia is very good at hero-izing the dead. They refuse to realize that it was their country that invaded another state, their country that kills, loots, rapes and injures civilians in Ukraine; that these Russian soldiers are murderers and villains. In fact, for many of Russian women life becomes better with their men gone - a lot of them had drinking problems, abused their families, did not work proper jobs. Usually the people who get mobilized or sign contracts with the Russian army are from specific social circles - the educated middle class (a broad generalization) is not keen to go to war. Usually it's poorer men from distant villages who are in the trenches. So now these women can live freely and get a substantial amount of money from the government, living with a glossed over memory of their son, husband or father. In a way, that reassures them that Russia is doing everything right. And as Russia has over 140 million people, it has a virtually endless resource of cannon fodder.
As for the injured - Russia mostly hides its invalids inside, so no one sees them and remembers them. After WWII people who lost limbs or had other deformities were even sent to special "colonies" so they wouldn't get in contrast with the shiny myth of the great victory. What Russians don't see, they don't care about.
So these incredible losses of the Russian army serve more to mobilize and inspire the Russian society and increase Putin's approval ratings. This prolongs the war, and the longer the war lasts, the harder it will be to overpower Russia. And every day Russia becomes a bigger problem for the whole world.
What to do, then?
It's important to destroy, disrupt and break down Russia's military potential - as quickly as possible. That is what Ukraine is doing with attacking plants that produce military goods, breaking down logistical chains, taking down headquarters and so on. That is why it's so important for Ukraine to get long-range missiles.
Another crucial thing is combating Russian propaganda - it is the source of war and a huge part of it. Russian propagandists are war criminals. Severe personal sanctions are needed not just against the most known figures but against everyone who serves that machine.
printer
Well-Known Member
printer
Well-Known Member
Air Defense Remains Top Priority at Meeting on Ukraine Defense
During today's meeting of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group at Ramstein Air Base Germany, continued air defense support to Ukraine was a top priority, said the secretary of defense.
"At today's meeting, I urged allies and partners to dig deep and donate whatever air defense munitions they can, as Ukraine heads into another winter of war," said Lloyd J. Austin III at the meeting's conclusion.
The fifteenth meeting of the group was also the first time that new Ukrainian Defense Minister Rustem Umerov was in attendance, Austin said. "I
Air defense, Austin said, remains critical to the success Ukraine has already experienced on the battlefield.
"Air defense will continue to be Ukraine's greatest need to protect the skies, its civilians, and its cities — as well as innocent people far away from the battlefield," he said.
So far, Austin said, the U.S. and partner nations have provided to Ukraine air defense systems, such as the Patriot; Hawk; IRIS-T; National/Norwegian Advanced Surface to Air Missile System, or NASAMS; and Gepards.
"These air defense capabilities are protecting Ukraine's forces, its civilians, and its critical infrastructure," he said.
Austin said during the meeting that he challenged fellow UDCG ministers to look deeper into their stockpiles of 155 mm ammunition and key air defense systems and interceptors to ensure everything possible is being done to assist Ukraine.
"Our long-term support for Ukraine will continue to evolve through dedicated capability coalitions like the ones that we started for armor and F-16 training and information technology," he said. "These important coalitions will help Ukraine continue to build up a combat-credible force for the future."
During today's meeting of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group at Ramstein Air Base Germany, continued air defense support to Ukraine was a top priority, said the secretary of defense.
"At today's meeting, I urged allies and partners to dig deep and donate whatever air defense munitions they can, as Ukraine heads into another winter of war," said Lloyd J. Austin III at the meeting's conclusion.
The fifteenth meeting of the group was also the first time that new Ukrainian Defense Minister Rustem Umerov was in attendance, Austin said. "I
Air defense, Austin said, remains critical to the success Ukraine has already experienced on the battlefield.
"Air defense will continue to be Ukraine's greatest need to protect the skies, its civilians, and its cities — as well as innocent people far away from the battlefield," he said.
So far, Austin said, the U.S. and partner nations have provided to Ukraine air defense systems, such as the Patriot; Hawk; IRIS-T; National/Norwegian Advanced Surface to Air Missile System, or NASAMS; and Gepards.
"These air defense capabilities are protecting Ukraine's forces, its civilians, and its critical infrastructure," he said.
Austin said during the meeting that he challenged fellow UDCG ministers to look deeper into their stockpiles of 155 mm ammunition and key air defense systems and interceptors to ensure everything possible is being done to assist Ukraine.
"Our long-term support for Ukraine will continue to evolve through dedicated capability coalitions like the ones that we started for armor and F-16 training and information technology," he said. "These important coalitions will help Ukraine continue to build up a combat-credible force for the future."
Air Defense Remains Top Priority at Meeting on Ukraine Defense
Continued air defense support was a key topic during a meeting of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group in Germany, where new Ukrainian Defense Minister Rustem Umerov attended the gathering for the first
www.defense.gov
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Considering they have one of the best air defense systems on the go, minus the fighters and just a few F16s would solve the glide bomb issue at a stroke. There should be at least a half dozen Ukrainians trained up for F16s and they are probably simulating actual missions they would be flying from data and mission reports from Ukraine, learning how to shoot the fuckers down in a simulator exactly as it would happen in Ukraine based on data from there and the tactics the Russians use. Perhaps we will see some F16's suddenly arrive, an undisclosed number unannounced, surprise is an advantage they might not want to lose here, as is keeping the true number of F16s in the country secret. A half dozen could cause havoc among the Russians and after a few planes went down, the attacks might stop or be reduced. They could stay well back in Ukrainian territory and still detect and bring down the Russian planes or zoom into range at tree top level. NATO support and their own radars and intelligence should give them notice of and detect any manned plane attacks with glide bombs. They have to fly high and fast to get to the release point and that makes them vulnerable, western long-range air to air missiles aren't easily fooled by chaff and flares.
BudmanTX
Well-Known Member
i have to agree with Austin, air defense is a major priority, especially with winter coming....Air Defense Remains Top Priority at Meeting on Ukraine Defense
During today's meeting of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group at Ramstein Air Base Germany, continued air defense support to Ukraine was a top priority, said the secretary of defense.
"At today's meeting, I urged allies and partners to dig deep and donate whatever air defense munitions they can, as Ukraine heads into another winter of war," said Lloyd J. Austin III at the meeting's conclusion.
The fifteenth meeting of the group was also the first time that new Ukrainian Defense Minister Rustem Umerov was in attendance, Austin said. "I
Air defense, Austin said, remains critical to the success Ukraine has already experienced on the battlefield.
"Air defense will continue to be Ukraine's greatest need to protect the skies, its civilians, and its cities — as well as innocent people far away from the battlefield," he said.
So far, Austin said, the U.S. and partner nations have provided to Ukraine air defense systems, such as the Patriot; Hawk; IRIS-T; National/Norwegian Advanced Surface to Air Missile System, or NASAMS; and Gepards.
"These air defense capabilities are protecting Ukraine's forces, its civilians, and its critical infrastructure," he said.
Austin said during the meeting that he challenged fellow UDCG ministers to look deeper into their stockpiles of 155 mm ammunition and key air defense systems and interceptors to ensure everything possible is being done to assist Ukraine.
"Our long-term support for Ukraine will continue to evolve through dedicated capability coalitions like the ones that we started for armor and F-16 training and information technology," he said. "These important coalitions will help Ukraine continue to build up a combat-credible force for the future."
Air Defense Remains Top Priority at Meeting on Ukraine Defense
Continued air defense support was a key topic during a meeting of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group in Germany, where new Ukrainian Defense Minister Rustem Umerov attended the gathering for the firstwww.defense.gov
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
It looks easily bypassed using a couple of bridging spans here where the island is, with a graveled detour road to the new bridge from the highway.
printer
Well-Known Member
The point is that the glide bombs are one of the major problems that has no response at this time.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
The bridge was taken out by a missile, but you are right, glide bombs are an issue that needs to be addressed and F16s are the way to address it. It might expedite the quiet arrival of a few along with a few Ukrainian pilots, getting them is a done deal and has been for a while. A half dozen secretly transferred should do the job of making the Russian airforce gun shy. These guys have been training on simulators and the real thing for a while and a sim is great for letting you know where all the buttons are and what they do, it speeds up training by a lot. They will be sending experienced pilots, not greenhorns. They also should have enough people trained up or soon will be, on maintenance, which might be the biggest bottleneck, not the pilots, but enough resources to maintain a squadron or less.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Getting F16s would also mean the Ukrainians doing their own glide bombing, though with old Russian jets, while the F16s killed any Russian fighters trying to stop them, only the rapidly disappearing Russian AA missile defense could stop them, not the Russian airforce. I figure they will address this problem of glide bombs and the only way to do that is to shoot down the planes carrying them, make it a suicide mission. Missiles are OK for point defense but are vulnerable to attack themselves, fighters can handle a much greater area of operation and intelligence can tell the Ukrainians when and where the planes carrying them take off in Russia or Crimea. I figure the results of the meetings will be expedited F16s to Ukraine, perhaps quietly and in a small number mostly due to logistical and support issues I figure.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
I was thinking, what if the Ukrainians started putting fake F16s on some of their airfields? Good enough to fool Russian satellites, because their drones wouldn't make it that far, but they can fool them too. A missile strike would likely be the result, one less for a real target and some nervous Russian pilots. When the real ones get there, the Ukrainian volunteers might have deployed dozens of fakes made from cheap shit and even cranked out as kits from a factory...
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
The one thing never to forget is that the logistics of this war are asymmetric.
Russia can afford to lose three aircraft, five soldiers, ten tanks for every Ukrainian one taken out.
The conflict of attrition is a close thing so long as the Ukrainians maintain their kill ratio. Anything that upsets that ratio in Russia’s favor, even a little, could change who is the last man standing.
Western fighters asap can imo correct the advantage the glide bombs are conferring.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
I believe the loss ratios for men and equipment are much higher for the Russians for reasons already mentioned. Destroying their irreplaceable equipment is the most important consideration, especially the more modern stuff dependent on western parts. Once gone, much of it including munitions, is gone for good and the pinpoint Ukrainian drone strikes have been mostly at bottlenecks in weapons production inside Russia. This is as much about future security as it is about defeating the Russians and driving their broken army from Ukraine. Without the planes, artillery and armor they are not nearly as much of a threat, even now, as they were before. Europe and America are getting a problem and threat removed for cheap in terms of Dollars and Euros, now that they are off the Russian energy tit.
As for those glide bombs, the F16s are a done deal and have been for a while, so expediting a few should not be a big policy issue but a logistical and technical issue. I believe they are meeting on how to strengthen Ukraine's air defense, and fighters will deal with Russian aircraft best, their radars and missiles have the range to neutralize the bombers before the release point. Just a small number would do and as I said the Ukrainians could make a lot of decoy F16's on the cheap for the Russian satellites to look at and maybe attack. Build them on top of junk cars so they can move around too!
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I wonder what is holding up the Gripens. They are similarly capable. Sweden pledged some back in the spring iirc.
It would be kinda cool to see what a handful of F-22s on “loan” could do. Against the Cold War airframes Russia is fielding, I imagine it would be a turkey shoot. And they are capable of delivering some really spiffy air-to-ground weapons. Our glide bombs are better than their glide bombs.
But it’s not to be, unless (I hope not) Russia insists on taking shots on Nato assets.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Before the war Russia had an economy the size if Italy's, now it is much smaller has lost a lot of its income and is straining under the weight of war while its funds are frozen in the west, and they are under cold war like sanctions. They never made much after the USSR broke up but bought modern Russia from the west after the 90's, everything from elevators to streetlamps, they can't even make roller bearings for their railway rolling stock FFS and imported them. They are a lot like an oil rich middle east oil kingdom and postindustrial with nothing to replace it with, education has taken a ponding in Russia for decades and all the old Soviet engineers and scientists are dead, all the bright sparks went off to America and founded Google and such.
They have land and they have manpower, but they also have ethnic division and many enemies, several nations along their borders want their asses or their land back! They are not industrialized, corruption killed that, if you had anything that made a buck, someone connected to Vlad would want a piece of the action etc. Corruption killed more than their military, it killed their industrial and tech sectors too and the only cure is regime change and reform, but there are social/political obstacles too. They see themselves as an empire and for centuries the role of the secret police was to kill off dissent and ethnic nationalism inside the empire, a role taken over by the KGB and now the FSB. Russia cannot be a liberal democracy because it would break apart, like the Soviet Union before it. Only European Russia would be left, west of the Urals where 80% of the population and most of the Russian's live, since the Soviet Union there has been an exodus of ethnic Russians from the east, going back to Mother Russia when they had the freedom to do so. To hang onto the empire, they must trade it for their freedom, for freedom means freedom for those they had under their thumb by force and that means progressive dissolution.