Deficiencies During Late Flowering

[RockStonedJesus]

Hey ya'll!

Seems that there is some deficiencies showing up late flowering.

Growing in Coco Coir + Perlite (About 60% coco, 40% perlite).

pH of nutrient solution: Approx 6-6.3
EC of nutrient solution: Approx 1.8

I am growing in plastic pots, so I'm only having to water every week or so (give/take a couple days).

I am watering until there's runoff on each pot - I am only doing this because I didn't/don't want salt build-ups.

I feel like some nutrients are being locked out due to such a high salt index, I was thinking of introducing humic/fulvic acid, feed less nutrient and allow more water uptake. Still doing research into this.

I've had slight nutrient issues throughout the entire grow, but for the most part, things have been going well.

I always tend to have issues in flowering, so I want to over-come this before the issue gets worse.

Does anyone have a rough guide as to the ideal PPM of nutrients during VEG/Flowering phase? I do have pre-made nutrients from a local supplier, though I also have raw nutrients such as Calcium Nitrate, Magnesium Sulphate, Monopotassium Phosphate, etc. So if I need to raise a particular nutrient, I can do so.

 

[Ed Rosestale]

You should be feeding daily, not once a week.

 

[keep it real.]

You should be feeding daily, not once a week.

As previously mentioned, coco requires frequent watering of daily if not multiple times a day and watering to runoff, you can check your runoff ec to help dial in feeding requirements.

 

[Hollatchaboy]

Hey ya'll!

Seems that there is some deficiencies showing up late flowering.

Growing in Coco Coir + Perlite (About 60% coco, 40% perlite).

pH of nutrient solution: Approx 6-6.3
EC of nutrient solution: Approx 1.8

I am growing in plastic pots, so I'm only having to water every week or so (give/take a couple days).

I am watering until there's runoff on each pot - I am only doing this because I didn't/don't want salt build-ups.

I feel like some nutrients are being locked out due to such a high salt index, I was thinking of introducing humic/fulvic acid, feed less nutrient and allow more water uptake. Still doing research into this.

I've had slight nutrient issues throughout the entire grow, but for the most part, things have been going well.

I always tend to have issues in flowering, so I want to over-come this before the issue gets worse.

Does anyone have a rough guide as to the ideal PPM of nutrients during VEG/Flowering phase? I do have pre-made nutrients from a local supplier, though I also have raw nutrients such as Calcium Nitrate, Magnesium Sulphate, Monopotassium Phosphate, etc. So if I need to raise a particular nutrient, I can do so.

If you're watering once a week, then yea, she's probably locking out. Try watering daily to ~20% runoff. You may need to water multiple times a day. If so, bring the ec down some.

 

[Ed Rosestale]

Unfortunately, beside the wrong treatment, it also looks like you have bugs and fungal issues (2nd pic) as well. Pics of the whole plant possible? And when you say coco perlite 60/40 you mixed it raw by yourself or is it some premixed product you have just bought and used?

 

[keep it real.]

Treat coco like hydro not soil, measure ec of runoff if it’s higher then you’re feeding its building up and needs to be fed less, if the runoff is less feed a little more until you see slight drops in numbers. Coco is very forgiving because you can water and correct problems multiple times a day.

 

[RockStonedJesus]

Unfortunately, beside the wrong treatment, it also looks like you have bugs and fungal issues (2nd pic) as well. Pics of the whole plant possible? And when you say coco perlite 60/40 you mixed it raw by yourself or is it some premixed product you have just bought and used?

Mixed myself, but also buffered the Coco for 48 hours with calcium and magnesium. I think it's the poor-quality photos, there don't appear to be any bugs from what I can see. However, how can we determine if there is a fungal issue? Sorry for my ignorance.

You should be feeding daily, not once a week.

I see, thanks for your input - it appears this seems to be common trend with Coco. I understand that coco doesn't have any nutrients itself, however, what I am confused by is how does watering daily change anything - let's say hypothetically I was to water every few days, not allowing the coco to fully dry out (still moist), with a runoff. Coco itself has excellent water-holding capacity, and if using Humic and Fulvic acids, it can be a natural soil wetter, keeping nutrient bonds & soil wet. Wouldn't feeding it daily be pointless, as the plant won't ever be able to up-take the nutrients anyway, you would be wasting precious nutrient solution (if run to waste), and the roots need air - wouldn't feeding daily smother the roots and potentially cause more fungal/root infections?

I am not saying the above to argue, I'm genuinely curious as to whether there is any specific science behind it all, as I genuinely would have thought that watering daily was a no go. I did have a previous grow where I drip-fed my plants 1-2 times per day - I went through huge amounts of nutrients, and I also saw WORSE results whereby the plants ended up with a lot more deficiencies, to be frank, it was my worse yield and grow by far.

Maybe I need to re-think the system perhaps.. And adjust the ratios of Coco & Perlite...

If I'm going to be honest, everything is/has been looking great thus far. The flowers are developing very nicely, so I want to try and help fix the issues I've currently got so they don't worsen. I will definitely take the advice on-board, and will water a bit more frequently.

Thanks heaps everyone for the input thus far, I genuinely do appreciate it.

 

[RockStonedJesus]

I must note that as of recent, I did notice some bubbling in my nutrient resi, and iridescent film on the top of the nutrient water. This is new. I did add glucose to my recent nutrient, so I suspect some microbe or bacteria started feeding off the sugar - I am going to do a full clean of my system today with diluted bleach. Unfortunately, I don't have a water chiller, so the nutrient resi temp will be near ambient. I haven't really had any major nutrient resi issues in the past, and have never really used a water chiller.

Should I discontinue feeding glucose? I did a bit of research, and some top-branded products utilize glucose for feeding sugars, so I assumed it was A-Ok.. But perhaps I was wrong...

 

[OldMedUser]

I must note that as of recent, I did notice some bubbling in my nutrient resi, and iridescent film on the top of the nutrient water. This is new. I did add glucose to my recent nutrient, so I suspect some microbe or bacteria started feeding off the sugar - I am going to do a full clean of my system today with diluted bleach. Unfortunately, I don't have a water chiller, so the nutrient resi temp will be near ambient. I haven't really had any major nutrient resi issues in the past, and have never really used a water chiller.

Should I discontinue feeding glucose? I did a bit of research, and some top-branded products utilize glucose for feeding sugars, so I assumed it was A-Ok.. But perhaps I was wrong...

Sugars aka carbs are to feed microbes mainly in soil grows and can cause serious issues in hydro. The plants make their own sugars and don't need it fed thru their roots. Just like us plants have circulatory systems so sugars made by top leaves eventually get down to the roots and back again unless used as building blocks or fuel for more growth. The fibers, cellulose, are made from long chains of complex sugars in all types of plants. When broke down in caustic sol'ns at pulp mills for instance one of the byproducts is artificial vanilla you buy in the baking dep't at your local supermarket. Yum-yum.

 

[Ed Rosestale]

Mixed myself, but also buffered the Coco for 48 hours with calcium and magnesium. I think it's the poor-quality photos, there don't appear to be any bugs from what I can see. However, how can we determine if there is a fungal issue? Sorry for my ignorance.


I see, thanks for your input - it appears this seems to be common trend with Coco. I understand that coco doesn't have any nutrients itself, however, what I am confused by is how does watering daily change anything - let's say hypothetically I was to water every few days, not allowing the coco to fully dry out (still moist), with a runoff. Coco itself has excellent water-holding capacity, and if using Humic and Fulvic acids, it can be a natural soil wetter, keeping nutrient bonds & soil wet. Wouldn't feeding it daily be pointless, as the plant won't ever be able to up-take the nutrients anyway, you would be wasting precious nutrient solution (if run to waste), and the roots need air - wouldn't feeding daily smother the roots and potentially cause more fungal/root infections?

I am not saying the above to argue, I'm genuinely curious as to whether there is any specific science behind it all, as I genuinely would have thought that watering daily was a no go. I did have a previous grow where I drip-fed my plants 1-2 times per day - I went through huge amounts of nutrients, and I also saw WORSE results whereby the plants ended up with a lot more deficiencies, to be frank, it was my worse yield and grow by far.

Maybe I need to re-think the system perhaps.. And adjust the ratios of Coco & Perlite...

If I'm going to be honest, everything is/has been looking great thus far. The flowers are developing very nicely, so I want to try and help fix the issues I've currently got so they don't worsen. I will definitely take the advice on-board, and will water a bit more frequently.

Thanks heaps everyone for the input thus far, I genuinely do appreciate it.

Growing in coco is way different than growing in peat and at the end not every coco is the same. Its about the fraction of the particles and proper preparation. You can have nice fibrous and coarse coco or you can have shitty coco full of dust, you can pack it tight inside the pot or just let it settle down by watering itself, you can get nicely rinsed and buffered coco or not. Hopefully you feel the difference. Anyway growing in coco is easier than peat, unless you want to treat it like a soil, than you will always have issues. Coco will never go to the low pH by watering many times a day to runoff, unlike peat, which becomes more and more acidic as the lime is being washed out by frequent watering with a lot of runoff. Thats great thing about coco, guessing game is over, but there is much more space for grower errors and every mistake hits the plant pretty fast and hard. Its better to keep things simple, base nutrients, proper treatment and dialed environment, than its only a routine till the end.

 

[MopeOG]

The reason you fertigate to runoff in coco at least once per day is to release built up salts in the coco and maintain desired PH and EC.
If the plants roots do not take up all the nutrients they build up in the coco.
Keeping your root system fairly condensed in pots that are not overly large is also important in coco for the above reasons.
Fertigating multiple times per day during flower assures the above as well as getting needed oxygen to the root zone.

In my experience, fertigating by hand, 1.8 EC is way high.
I never seem get past 1.4 EC without tip burn on my leaves showing up.

 

[RockStonedJesus]

The reason you fertigate to runoff in coco at least once per day is to release built up salts in the coco and maintain desired PH and EC.
If the plants roots do not take up all the nutrients they build up in the coco.
Keeping your root system fairly condensed in pots that are not overly large is also important in coco for the above reasons.
Fertigating multiple times per day during flower assures the above as well as getting needed oxygen to the root zone.

In my experience, fertigating by hand, 1.8 EC is way high.
I never seem get past 1.4 EC without tip burn on my leaves showing up.

Thanks for your input! It's funny as a lot of manufacturers here want you to go as high as 2.0 EC... I think it's just a way of them selling MORE of their products. I've purchased all the base elements (Calcium Nitrate, Magnesium Sulphate, Magnesium Nitrate, Mono Potassium Phosphate, etc. etc.). Obviously I'm far from figuring out the correct ratios for base nutrients, but I hope to move away from these pre-made nutrients, I've spent a long time researching into that, and paying 100x the price for basically water and some nutrients doesn't sit right with me.

Anyhow, yes, it's funny you mention 1.4 - I've heard a few other local people not exceeding 1.4, but then the shills locally try to push you to 2.0, one bloke at the local hydro store said he goes as high as 2.5-3, and suggests that...... That's ridiculous! Is it not?

I think I'm going to have to set up my dripper system again next grow (Using Netafim Netbow's + LCNL drippers for precise flow). I suppose if I run a lower EC, I won't be going through as much nutrients, just more water? If I'm feeding more often, then I'm going to have to battle RH + figure out how to deal with the over-flow.

Currently I'm growing in black standard pots, I believe approximately 20L pots. No trays currently. I've tried air pots, and fabric pots, but I found both needed watering TOO often, but perhaps it was merely the way I've been approaching this the entire time...

I could consider flood trays, however, they're extremely expensive, I think over $280 each for 1x1 meter (give/take), and I'd need two of them..

I'm at a loss as to the best approach in my circumstances - and I now also need to consider the future grows, to ensure the best approach.

My concern is that after each feed, the pots feel extremely heavy - obviously a lot of water is retained in the coco. With that being said, for the next run, would I be best off adding more perlite, perhaps even some vermiculite? If I do go with the 1 - 2 daily feeds, I feel like I'm going to smother the roots with too much water.

The local Coco/Perlite mixes here locally are 70% Coco and 30% Perlite, and based on previous experience with them, this coco blend holds A LOT of water as well. The only thing I can think would be to up my perlite percentage to allow for more oxygen/less coco = less water retention?

Sorry everyone for the DUMB questions! I have come accross contradicting information in the past, however, based on what everyone has said thus far, and based on my previous experiences, I feel like I'm heading in the right direction with what has been said thus far.

• Scrap the glucose
• Lower EC to perhaps below 1.5
• Feed 1-2 times daily, with runoff

Any further input is genuinely appreciated, perhaps more guidance as to how I should have everything setup next round - more so in regards to WTF?! to do with the runoff..

 

[dwc420letsgo]

Me personally id throw the plants away, clean and disinfect everything in the tent/grow room. And start fresh making sure u follow a proper sop for your medium.

 

[medidedicated]

Thanks for your input! It's funny as a lot of manufacturers here want you to go as high as 2.0 EC... I think it's just a way of them selling MORE of their products. I've purchased all the base elements (Calcium Nitrate, Magnesium Sulphate, Magnesium Nitrate, Mono Potassium Phosphate, etc. etc.). Obviously I'm far from figuring out the correct ratios for base nutrients, but I hope to move away from these pre-made nutrients, I've spent a long time researching into that, and paying 100x the price for basically water and some nutrients doesn't sit right with me.

Anyhow, yes, it's funny you mention 1.4 - I've heard a few other local people not exceeding 1.4, but then the shills locally try to push you to 2.0, one bloke at the local hydro store said he goes as high as 2.5-3, and suggests that...... That's ridiculous! Is it not?

I think I'm going to have to set up my dripper system again next grow (Using Netafim Netbow's + LCNL drippers for precise flow). I suppose if I run a lower EC, I won't be going through as much nutrients, just more water? If I'm feeding more often, then I'm going to have to battle RH + figure out how to deal with the over-flow.

Currently I'm growing in black standard pots, I believe approximately 20L pots. No trays currently. I've tried air pots, and fabric pots, but I found both needed watering TOO often, but perhaps it was merely the way I've been approaching this the entire time...

I could consider flood trays, however, they're extremely expensive, I think over $280 each for 1x1 meter (give/take), and I'd need two of them..

I'm at a loss as to the best approach in my circumstances - and I now also need to consider the future grows, to ensure the best approach.

My concern is that after each feed, the pots feel extremely heavy - obviously a lot of water is retained in the coco. With that being said, for the next run, would I be best off adding more perlite, perhaps even some vermiculite? If I do go with the 1 - 2 daily feeds, I feel like I'm going to smother the roots with too much water.

The local Coco/Perlite mixes here locally are 70% Coco and 30% Perlite, and based on previous experience with them, this coco blend holds A LOT of water as well. The only thing I can think would be to up my perlite percentage to allow for more oxygen/less coco = less water retention?

Sorry everyone for the DUMB questions! I have come accross contradicting information in the past, however, based on what everyone has said thus far, and based on my previous experiences, I feel like I'm heading in the right direction with what has been said thus far.

• Scrap the glucose
• Lower EC to perhaps below 1.5
• Feed 1-2 times daily, with runoff

Any further input is genuinely appreciated, perhaps more guidance as to how I should have everything setup next round - more so in regards to WTF?! to do with the runoff..

Even when fully saturated it has rich oxygen levels with or without pearlite. So much actually, that when it starts to dry back even slightly (indicator to water again) it is too much oxygen, roots dry out and nutrient solution spikes EC. I learned the hard way that dryback in coco is horrible for plants, all my leaves died within 30 days.

So no, it is not smothering them with water unless the media has too much peat/dust from not rinsing. Even then. Yes it is a lot of solution to prepare, monitor then dispose of. I switched to soil for that reason until I do full size grows and even still might do soil if all goes well. It takes away a lot of prep so you can just get right to it and save much time.

You will need to raise plants or buy a pump and etc to dispose runoff. Bigger resivoirs will save the most time overall in terms of refilling but should be cleaned/refilled weekly at least so that is kind of the limit.

More coco vs pearlite makes a difference in water retention but some pearlite is always good for aeration so it waters smoothly but it can still dry fast but if it doesn’t, you still keep it mostly wet either way. I like 90/10 coco/pearlite or else it dries too fast, 50/50 hardly retained much but everyone gets different results but yes it changes retention.

 

[RockStonedJesus]

Me personally id throw the plants away, clean and disinfect everything in the tent/grow room. And start fresh making sure u follow a proper sop for your medium.

There's nothing wrong with the plants. I must admit I should've taken overall photos, which I do apologize as it doesn't show the full story. The flowers are forming nicely. However, these leaf issues are cropping up. What are the determining factors for a fungal infection, and is there a way to come back from it during the late flowering stage?

There are no bugs present, there was ONE small flying insect I saw in the tent, everything else is all clear - I also checked the coco and all over the plants, definitely NO bugs.

Even when fully saturated it has rich oxygen levels with or without pearlite. So much actually, that when it starts to dry back even slightly (indicator to water again) it is too much oxygen, roots dry out and nutrient solution spikes EC. I learned the hard way that dryback in coco is horrible for plants, all my leaves died within 30 days.

So no, it is not smothering them with water unless the media has too much peat/dust from not rinsing. Even then. Yes it is a lot of solution to prepare, monitor then dispose of. I switched to soil for that reason until I do full size grows and even still might do soil if all goes well. It takes away a lot of prep so you can just get right to it and save much time.

You will need to raise plants or buy a pump and etc to dispose runoff. Bigger resivoirs will save the most time overall in terms of refilling but should be cleaned/refilled weekly at least so that is kind of the limit.

More coco vs pearlite makes a difference in water retention but some pearlite is always good for aeration so it waters smoothly but it can still dry fast but if it doesn’t, you still keep it mostly wet either way. I like 90/10 coco/pearlite or else it dries too fast, 50/50 hardly retained much but everyone gets different results but yes it changes retention.

Thanks for your input! It's funny as I've gone entire grows where I've let the Coco dry up, to the point the pot was so light I could pick it up with one finger. Never had any issues until LATE flowering, where I saw deficiencies, never had any root issues, the roots always looked extremely healthy after harvesting - I don't know, it might come down to climate & specific conditions I suppose.

My main concern about keeping the Coco continuously saturated is that it will increase the likelihood of root rot/root issues, no?

Another question I had is should I be adding a sanitizer to the nutrient resi? I've been adding a chlorine-based product called "Pythoff" by Flairform. However, I read a paper on the efficacy of Pythoff and it was found that it was less effective at controlling existing pythium in the medium/root zone. I obviously just want to keep all basis covered, and to ensure there isn't any nasties growing/brewing in the tank.

 

[dwc420letsgo]

That second picture (the leave with the fungal spot) is what made me say think I’d start over but as u say, u are the one there so u would know best as u have the whole picture

 

[RockStonedJesus]

That second picture (the leave with the fungal spot) is what made me say think I’d start over but as u say, u are the one there so u would know best as u have the whole picture

For sure, for sure!

I think the photos aren't that good, looking at them on the computer - they don't look right. There's black spots, which infact are trichomes, perhaps the lighting caused them to look dark.

I was more concerned regarding the purple stripes/spots developing on the leaves.

 

[medidedicated]

There's nothing wrong with the plants. I must admit I should've taken overall photos, which I do apologize as it doesn't show the full story. The flowers are forming nicely. However, these leaf issues are cropping up. What are the determining factors for a fungal infection, and is there a way to come back from it during the late flowering stage?

There are no bugs present, there was ONE small flying insect I saw in the tent, everything else is all clear - I also checked the coco and all over the plants, definitely NO bugs.


Thanks for your input! It's funny as I've gone entire grows where I've let the Coco dry up, to the point the pot was so light I could pick it up with one finger. Never had any issues until LATE flowering, where I saw deficiencies, never had any root issues, the roots always looked extremely healthy after harvesting - I don't know, it might come down to climate & specific conditions I suppose.

My main concern about keeping the Coco continuously saturated is that it will increase the likelihood of root rot/root issues, no?

Another question I had is should I be adding a sanitizer to the nutrient resi? I've been adding a chlorine-based product called "Pythoff" by Flairform. However, I read a paper on the efficacy of Pythoff and it was found that it was less effective at controlling existing pythium in the medium/root zone. I obviously just want to keep all basis covered, and to ensure there isn't any nasties growing/brewing in the tank.

Late flower is when my plant IME get sensative the most to mold, nutes, light and etc. I wouldn’t ever let it dry since it killed all my leaves and that was the only thing wrong. It wont rot in the media from being wet. Like I said even when fully saturated, it isn’t that wet.

I haven’t heard of root rot in coco. I heard it with dwc or soil but not coco. Using h202 or pool shock in your solution will keep your media/resivoir sterile from algae and etc.

 

[dwc420letsgo]

The purpling is fine, its the fade they start to get when they are nearing the end of flowering. Usually when I see that, my pH is pretty much within range

 

[Hollatchaboy]

My main concern about keeping the Coco continuously saturated is that it will increase the likelihood of root rot/root issues, no?

This run, I've been experimenting with setting my timer to auto water every 3 hours, for 10 seconds. It's been that way for a month and a half, no problems. Think about dwc, where the roots are in nutrient solution, at all times.