Another story that proves guns make people safer

Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
When a person is suicidal, time and difficulty both factor into their chances of survival. So, you are wrong when you say "if someone wants to kill themselves they will find a way". There are plenty of examples where people are alive today when they would not if a gun was within their reach at their moment of crisis.

I don't care one way or the other. I realize there are plenty of people who own guns that support stiffer gun regulations and my sweeping generalization sounds like I mean them when I say a good gun nut is a dead one. But I think you know what I mean.

As they say, hit dog hollers.
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i do know what you mean, just because i own firearms doesn't make me or a lot of other people "nuts"...
you're probably right, and i didn't mean it to sound like i was defending gun ownership, but i am not impressed with people who commit suicide, never have been, and never will be. i've dealt with depression, it sucked, seemed like nothing in the whole world mattered, that nothing i did made any kind of difference to anyone, not even to myself, but i still got up and did what i had to do every day, and never once considered killing myself, even with multiple handguns within easy reach. you would think they would at least opt for the overdose or poison, to not make a mess for those they leave behind to have to clean up.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
CunningCanuk said:
In these times, let’s not be too hasty to give up on those struggling with mental health.

www.theguardian.com

Pandemic hits mental health of women and young people hardest, survey finds

Survey also finds adults aged 18-24 and women more concerned about personal finances than other groups
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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if someone feels suicidal and seeks help to deal with those feelings, more power to them, i hope they resolve their issues. i don't have a problem with depressed people, i have a problem with those whose answer is to give up, usually leaving behind a lot of problems for their survivors to deal with
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
i do know what you mean, just because i own firearms doesn't make me or a lot of pther people "nuts"...
you're probably right, and i didn't mean it to sound like i was defending gun ownership, but i am not impressed with people who commit suicide, never have been, and never will be. i've dealt with depression, it sucked, seemed like nothing in the whole world mattered, that nothing i did made any kind of difference to anyone, not even to myself, but i still got up and did what i had to do every day, and never once considered killing myself, even with multiple handguns within easy reach. you would think they would at least opt for the overdose or poison, to not make a mess for those they leave behind to have to clean up.
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Ya I think the last thing I would chose is a gun and leave the vision with my family. A painful end of life illness would be the only way I would check out (I hope). And being a stoner I would probably get me some fentanyl or other like method :(.
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
if someone feels suicidal and seeks help to deal with those feelings, more power to them, i hope they resolve their issues. i don't have a problem with depressed people, i have a problem with those whose answer is to give up, usually leaving behind a lot of problems for their survivors to deal with
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Yes it is an awful thing to put your loved ones through, re the resulting guilt, sadness, embarrassment, etc.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Budley Doright said:
I do think fog is right in the fact that guns are way to convenient and with no meaningful checks it probably does contribute to the numbers that otherwise would go the extra mile, but as you say what difference does it make the method used. Would a person like fog show more empathy if it was an overdose?
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The issue with me is we have too many gun nuts. We lose 15,000 people a year to gun violence compared to near zero in other developed countries similar to the US. Almost as many as we lose to gun suicides. Gun nuts are why changing gun regulations is nearly impossible at this time. I'm Ok with them cutting the number of gun nuts through suicide. Just don't let the door hit anyone else on the way out. When the number of gun nuts gets small enough, maybe we will help more people survive a crisis however it manifests itself.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
i do know what you mean, just because i own firearms doesn't make me or a lot of other people "nuts"...
you're probably right, and i didn't mean it to sound like i was defending gun ownership, but i am not impressed with people who commit suicide, never have been, and never will be. i've dealt with depression, it sucked, seemed like nothing in the whole world mattered, that nothing i did made any kind of difference to anyone, not even to myself, but i still got up and did what i had to do every day, and never once considered killing myself, even with multiple handguns within easy reach. you would think they would at least opt for the overdose or poison, to not make a mess for those they leave behind to have to clean up.
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I've lost friends to suicide too. It's not easy on the survivors. A neighbor down the street did himself with his gun and left his wife with the mess. Awful for her and I sympathize with her. The guy had a terminal cancer diagnosis. Oregon has a death with dignity law but he didn't want to wait until he was close enough to the end for the law to apply. I'm having trouble feeling much empathy for him.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
The issue with me is we have too many gun nuts. We lose 15,000 people a year to gun violence compared to near zero in other developed countries similar to the US. Almost as many as we lose to gun suicides. Gun nuts are why changing gun regulations is nearly impossible at this time. I'm Ok with them cutting the number of gun nuts through suicide. Just don't let the door hit anyone else on the way out. When the number of gun nuts gets small enough, maybe we will help more people survive a crisis however it manifests itself.
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i agree with your sentiment, but i think "gun nuts" are not the major reason it's hard to change gun laws. i think the reason it's hard to change gun laws is too many law makers kiss the asses of the gun lobby. there is too much money involved, and the gun lobby can effectively communicate with gun owners, telling them what they want them to hear. if the gun lobbyist tell gun owners that "senator X is against you owning guns, which is your god given right"...then those gun owners are going to be voting for senator Y next election...
so the only way gun nuts make it hard to change gun laws is that they are the weapon the lobbyist use to threaten politicians
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Budley Doright said:
I would love to be able to do that but we as humans (generalizing) are not capable of keeping the guns from people that do harm. So I figure I can give up a hobby to help keep more people safer. Sad that I have to do that but not a huge sacrifice.
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I've read that in the UK, people who practice the sport of target shooting must keep their guns at their gun club's facility. Maybe I'm wrong on this?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
i agree with your sentiment, but i think "gun nuts" are not the major reason it's hard to change gun laws. i think the reason it's hard to change gun laws is too many law makers kiss the asses of the gun lobby. there is too much money involved, and the gun lobby can effectively communicate with gun owners, telling them what they want them to hear. if the gun lobbyist tell gun owners that "senator X is against you owning guns, which is your god given right"...then those gun owners are going to be voting for senator Y next election...
so the only way gun nuts make it hard to change gun laws is that they are the weapon the lobbyist use to threaten politicians
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nah

When a strong majority of voters make this important to their reps, they will sweep away all other resistance.

Right now, it's about 53%:47%, supporting/opposing changing gun laws. That's where lobbyists can play.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I've lost friends to suicide too. It's not easy on the survivors. A neighbor down the street did himself with his gun and left his wife with the mess. Awful for her and I sympathize with her. The guy had a terminal cancer diagnosis. Oregon has a death with dignity law but he didn't want to wait until he was close enough to the end for the law to apply. I'm having trouble feeling much empathy for him.
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i could respect his choice, if he had chose another method. if you have close friends and family, you should talk to them about your choice, let them know how you feel, and why you feel that way. being given the news that you are going to die in a shitty way is a mitigating factor to me, that's not the same as letting ennui swallow you, and just giving up.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I've read that in the UK, people who practice the sport of target shooting must keep their guns at their gun club's facility. Maybe I'm wrong on this?
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whether true or not, it seems like you're just collecting all the available firearms in the area so someone can steal all of them at one time...
i have thumb print trigger locks on my shotgun and rifle, and my pistols are either on me, or locked in a safe that's bolted to wall studs when i go out of the house.

https://www.amazon.com/Bison-Fingerprint-Trigger-Handguns-Rifles/dp/B07QQ332PR
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I've read that in the UK, people who practice the sport of target shooting must keep their guns at their gun club's facility. Maybe I'm wrong on this?
Click to expand...
Not sure. We can only transport directly to and from range in a locked case. This after passing extensive checks and a week of training, then a practical and written test. The gun is registered with the federal registry. The possible theft of the guns is enough for me to wish them gone. As I said it’s not a hobby I feel is worth defending ……. In the name of freedom :(.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
nah

When a strong majority of voters make this important to their reps, they will sweep away all other resistance.

Right now, it's about 53%:47%, supporting/opposing changing gun laws. That's where lobbyists can play.
Click to expand...
you seem to be assuming that these people are evenly distributed across the whole country. they're concentrated in areas where they are the primary voters, there will never be a strong majority of voters that don't support gun ownership in those areas, so there will never be any incentive for their law makers to change. you'll have huge swathes of the country that will never change, and small pockets in more progressive areas that will fiercely resist change, just like you have now..a 6% majority spread over the whole country isn't nearly enough, and it probably won't change much in the near future
 
CatHedral

CatHedral

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
When a person is suicidal, time and difficulty both factor into their chances of survival. So, you are wrong when you say "if someone wants to kill themselves they will find a way". There are plenty of examples where people are alive today when they would not if a gun was within their reach at their moment of crisis.

I don't care one way or the other. I realize there are plenty of people who own guns that support stiffer gun regulations and my sweeping generalization sounds like I mean them when I say a good gun nut is a dead one. But I think you know what I mean.

As they say, hit dog hollers.
Click to expand...
It is easier, in those brief intolerable times, to pick up a gun (if it is there) than to find a bridge. I do not know by how much (difficult to do a control and trial group) widespread gun ownership increases suicide, but it stands to reason that when every other universally available way (which excludes overdose by prescription drug, easy death but not available to me) takes more time and effort than loading and lifting a gun, it’ll be the first choice.

While I have guns, I have selected a different suicide option (details not provided), in the extreme case. I do not want to be a detrimental statistic as I generally favor civil gun rights. But seeing who has lately been championing gun rights, my support is thinner now.
 
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