DDWC : Distributed Deep Water Culture

[DaveTheNewbie]

Ok so maybe im talking about something thats already invented .. who knows. If so then awesome, im onto a good idea.

OK everyone knows DWC : a bucket of water and an air blower. easy.
The basic rule seems to be more air = better.

I was thinking that if you had a DWC 'bucket' (whatever container you use) and filled it with rocks (expanded clay, whatever) then you would get major benefits.

- Roots like to cling and twist onto things. anyone thats played with DWC/aeroponics knows they get tangled at the first chance. Rocks would allow this, egro the plant would be happier.
- DWC bubbles do knock roots around a bit. Normal roots are in soil and dont move. I dont know how much difference this would make, but its more like nature and therefore better in my book.
- The rocks 'anchor' the plant down, and there arent any issues of the plant falling over and needing to be held up like in aero/DWC. This has to be good.
- The big kicker tho : the more air the better. Instead of adding more air, make the air more effective. in DWC bubbles go straight up and out of the water. With rocks they would have to navigate around the rocks, lose momentum as they hit rocks, travel horizontal, etc. They would also break up as they hit rocks and get smashed.

If for arguements sake the air bubbles take four times as long to exit the water, then the air is in the water for four times as long, ergo its four times more air with the same air pump. Much more efficient.

I can see many pros, and zero cons with this idea. What are your thoughts.

ps then im going to mix this idea with the aero/DWC hybrid and make the perfect growing environment

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/126612-aeroponic-dwc-hybrid-idea.html

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

(insert mad professor laugh here)

 

[smokeybandit22]

man that must be some good shit you are smoking. in reality maybe you are onto something. where would the airstone sit?

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

right at the bottom under all the rocks

 

[GuLaMaStEr]

i was planning to do a dwc for my grow in a month but im liking where your going with this, and think its a good idea.....u could even fill a whole rubber maid tub with rocks/medium and have multiple plants in one container, which is what im thinking about doing. im just thinking it may be hard to drain the container with all the rocks in there...what do you think about draing this bihatch?

 

[JonnyBtreed]

get a siphon tube,like for an aquarium, thats what i use for my dwc. leave it in there stuffed down on a side.. The only thing I would think of as a con is the fact that your going to have trouble keeping the water right underthe root system in the beginning because with all the rocks in there there going to be less room for water therefore your goin to have to check the water level all the time(or keep a hose on the side to moniter) and if the plants are on a lid and grow into something solid if you try to take the cover off your going to rip your roots.

 

[JonnyBtreed]

but i like where your going with it....

 

[AeroKing]

Dave, You've got some great ideas. It is thinking like this that may find a better way to grow. Don't feel like I'm trying to down your idea's. I believe if you keep working through them, you will come up with something better, and I'm with you on it. With that said, here are a few Con's that I've thought of that may help somebody who may try this or try to adapt this.
(this was brought over from another post by the same OP.)

Possible Cons:

Res changes become more difficult, especially flushes.
You won't be able to lift the lid of the res (or are you growing directly out of the bed of rocks? - if you are, what about evaporation?).
Can you expect an even dispersement of tds and ph?
How do you take readings?
Increase in salt buildup (more surface area).
You won't be able to clean the res at anytime throughout the grow.
You can't use a chiller, or you would have to bury the pump/plumbing under the rocks (fucked if you have a failure).
You can't visually check the roots.
You can't remove a single plant.

Some of these won't really apply or matter. There may also be a few others... Personally I like your first idea better. I'll try to shoot some pics of my setup later to give you a better idea of how it works...

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

thanks for the post Aeroking, i need the devils advocate.

I believe that having a seperate res solves nearly all of those issues. I didnt post it the first time, but without a seperate res you have very little water and then yes you could be in all sorts of shit fast.

1) Res changes become more difficult, especially flushes.
- seperate res without rocks solves this completely.

2) You won't be able to lift the lid of the res (or are you growing directly out of the bed of rocks? - if you are, what about evaporation?).
- normal drip systems dont use a lid they just have rocks. But i was going to have a lid, why would i lift the lid up?? I know i have roots cause the clones have roots when i put them in there.

3) Can you expect an even dispersement of tds and ph?
- interesting question : i have no idea. But if i had a seperate res, i would have to have a pump at the top and a drain at the bottom to circulate the water to and from the res so i guess so

4) How do you take readings?
- seperate res without rocks solves this completely.

5) Increase in salt buildup (more surface area).
- is this so? why is there more salt with rocks than without?

6) You won't be able to clean the res at anytime throughout the grow.
- how many people do this, seems like too much hard work to me

7) You can't use a chiller, or you would have to bury the pump/plumbing under the rocks (fucked if you have a failure).
- seperate res without rocks solves this completely.

You can't visually check the roots.
- I know i have roots cause the clones have roots when i put them in there.

9) You can't remove a single plant.
- if you use seeds not clones and you want to remove males then this is true i guess. I was going to use small buckets and have 1 plant per bucket, all connected to a central res.

 

[joneric1014]

5) Increase in salt buildup (more surface area).
- is this so? why is there more salt with rocks than without?

TADA! A Masters in Marine Bio, and I finally have a use for it! lol

Here it is in laymans terms:

The more surface area you have, the more surface area there is for salts to cling to. Salts naturally want to gravitate to something and "hold on", which is why you always see salts build up in marine aquariums. This is particularly a problem where water evaporates and refills alot, ie: your reservoir. Rocks, being highly porous and pitted on the outside, give those same salts billions of places to collect and attach themselves. Over time, you would find that the salts had burrowed into the rock, and become permanently attached.

Thats why we use PVC to house ocean life in the industry. You might want to consider using something made from polyurethane/pvc to replace the rocks. I would think a couple of handfull of 1" pvc, cut into 3 inch plugs scattered across the bottom would do the trick, and be easier to clean / maintain.

At least thats what I would use.

 

[AeroKing]

Been thinking about all this...
The seperate res does pretty much cover all of it. Most commercial systems designed similarly use a drip system. Yours would be a lot like a waterfarm without the dripper.

A couple of notes if you decide to push on:

An occasional good flush w/ florakleen should release/clean the salts

Would not skimp on the air stones - go right for the micropores. If they clog, you're screwed.

I think vinyl or silicone air tubing would get crushed byt the rocks and restrict the air. Maybe Polyethylene tubing? Good micropore diffusers use 3/8 ID tubing anyway. You could conceivably use PEX.

I'd conceive some sort of filter on the return drains. I know for me, just the right size rock would get stuck in there and clog the motherfucker. Inline pump filters would probably be best. The hydrostatic pressure should force the liquid through, no problem(they're really just a screened cylinder).

Even then, I'd still add a redundant drain, maybe above your par water level. If one clogs and and the pump keeps filling, guess where your water goes?

I guess to me, I'd hate the idea not having the ability to access the stones and air lines. I also like to do visual inspections of roots, checking for rot...

I don't know if I'd consider the stationary roots a benefit. I actually really like the idea of the loose roots.
At 35 watts for an excellent commercial pump that can easily handle >4 50+ gallon res's, I don't think you'd see too much of a money saver by using smaller pumps and trying to salvage all you can from them. IMO, the cons outway the pros...
(i'd stick w/ the hybrid idea)

 

[Don't Bogart]

I've yet to get the courage to grow something but in the mean time i'm sifting thru this site for info on growing. This idea is not far from my experience in fish tanks. In fact I think that's what I'll use. I probably will put fish in it. You can get air stones up to a foot long. Set three or four of them parallelon the bottom, cover with about 6" of aquarium sand. fill with water to about (what?) 3" to 4" below top. Make cover for "X" amount of plants. As for changing the water a sifon tube would drain all or some of the water. If you put in fish you could pump the water up and thru the roots carrying fish gunk, (maybe not). but the setup would be very easy to maintain and clean. Comments??

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

I've yet to get the courage to grow something but in the mean time i'm sifting thru this site for info on growing. This idea is not far from my experience in fish tanks. In fact I think that's what I'll use. I probably will put fish in it. You can get air stones up to a foot long. Set three or four of them parallelon the bottom, cover with about 6" of aquarium sand. fill with water to about (what?) 3" to 4" below top. Make cover for "X" amount of plants. As for changing the water a sifon tube would drain all or some of the water. If you put in fish you could pump the water up and thru the roots carrying fish gunk, (maybe not). but the setup would be very easy to maintain and clean. Comments??

i think they call it aquaponics when you have fish in as well. really awesome idea in my mind.

my question is lighting : you dont want light on the roots, but fish need lights. all aero/DWC buckets are painted dark to keep the light out, how will the fish go?

 

[UmF]

blacklights dont do anything to plants right? so just give the fish a blacklight. idk though about with roots but i know blacklights dont do anything to the actual plant.

 

[jgreenbeast]

just came across this thread.........
y wouldn't u use the fish tank 4 ur rez? then an auto top off system 2 keep the level the same, pump the water from tank to ur planers and the planters will drain into a seperate tray then into the fish tank. a piece of guttering would work great! this would prevent light on the roots and delvelopment of alot of algae

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

just came across this thread.........
y wouldn't u use the fish tank 4 ur rez? then an auto top off system 2 keep the level the same, pump the water from tank to ur planers and the planters will drain into a seperate tray then into the fish tank. a piece of guttering would work great! this would prevent light on the roots and delvelopment of alot of algae

seems reasonable to me

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

Ok so I think I have it.
2 buckets, one inside the other, inside one has holes drilled in bottom
air stone sits between the 2 buckets (needs some room here : prop it up)
seperate res of course, but now you can lift out your roots (and stones) to look at the air stone etc.
I think its a goer !

 

[AeroKing]

That, my friendisa modular waterfarm without the dripper.

Would you consider a DWC to be more efficient than the dripper/dwc hybrid?

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

That, my friendisa modular waterfarm without the dripper.

Would you consider a DWC to be more efficient than the dripper/dwc hybrid?

take my idea above.
remember that you have a seperate res.
therefore you have a pump to recycle the water from the res to the plant
the water coming into the plant is your dripper
except i was thinking of running the pump 15 mins per hour, and moving alot more water than a dripper.

yup i stole the idea from waterfarm

 

[UmF]

you should make one. id would like to see how it works out.