Why no conclusive side by side defoliation topics

[Dr. Who]

No lower budsites here in anything that was posted those are all trained plants

Now why would you NOT lollypop as shown? If your not, your wasting your time.

It's NOT about defoliating to get better results with an untrimmed plant all through bloom.

Now then. Those pictures are NOT of a "trained" plant either. Just one that is PROPERLY lollypopped before bloom, I do mine in Veg anyway....
Let the power branching do it's work.

I mean you prune your tomato's right? You DON'T DEFOLIATE them!

I gotta find my original GG#4 pics. I simply let them run and didn't lolly much at all.

 

[fartoblue]

I've been harvesting my plants whole to dry. I might consider taking just the tops one time to give it a shot, and let those lowers go for longer.

I have just done this today on a 10 plant grow as an experiment. Will take a pic tomorrow when lights come on. The whole grow was atrocious, tall stretchy with no substance to small buds. I defoliated quite heavily using the Kyle Kushman method at a few days after flip to 12/12. Nipped every bud site off apart from last two top ones and kept a few satellite branches on. Now at 11 weeks there are more leaves and fluffy larf than I have ever had (this is probably one of my worst grows to date where I have not had something I could blame it on. Normally I defoliate at 3 weeks. I may not see this experiment through as I may need to move on and to be truthful what I have left on is pretty garbage..

Feed was Botanicare Kind also their tea, silica and calmag. @1.9 ec max, ph 5.7-6.2, 3 x 600w HPS. Modular flood and drain feeding every hour for 10 minutes and once during lights off.

 

[Rdubz]

I have just done this today on a 10 plant grow as an experiment. Will take a pic tomorrow when lights come on. The whole grow was atrocious, tall stretchy with no substance to small buds. I defoliated quite heavily using the Kyle Kushman method at a few days after flip to 12/12. Nipped every bud site off apart from last two top ones and kept a few satellite branches on. Now at 11 weeks there are more leaves and fluffy larf than I have ever had (this is probably one of my worst grows to date where I have not had something I could blame it on. Normally I defoliate at 3 weeks. I may not see this experiment through as I may need to move on and to be truthful what I have left on is pretty garbage..

Feed was Botanicare Kind also their tea, silica and calmag. @1.9 ec max, ph 5.7-6.2, 3 x 600w HPS. Modular flood and drain feeding every hour for 10 minutes and once during lights off.

Are u using silica during Bloom?

 

[fartoblue]

Are u using silica during Bloom?

Yes but I cut it out after the start of week 4 and a new res change.

 

[Rdubz]

Now why would you NOT lollypop as shown? If your not, your wasting your time.

It's NOT about defoliating to get better results with an untrimmed plant all through bloom.

Now then. Those pictures are NOT of a "trained" plant either. Just one that is PROPERLY lollypopped before bloom, I do mine in Veg anyway....
Let the power branching do it's work.

I mean you prune your tomato's right? You DON'T DEFOLIATE them!

I gotta find my original GG#4 pics. I simply let them run and didn't lolly much at all.

I guess I was more or less going off your argument about bud sites needing light vs no light and your example just didn't prove that I'm sorry maybe I just jumped in to something that I have no business talking about seems like this is something that has been beaten to death and there will never come out with this is the right answer agree to disagree

 

[oill]

I have been continuously growing for around 5 years now. First few grows I didn't really defoliate and things went OK. I then started to defoliate every grow. My grows haven't improved as much as I would have liked taking my 5 years experience into consideration. I occasionally get 1grm per watt but not very often, maybe I am just not a great grower, some of my grows have been quite bad.

I have tried most defoliation technique's. Complete strip at 3 weeks, handful of leaves every few days, and last grow or 2 the Kyle Kushman technique, etc etc.

Seen many topics on side by side defoliation vs non defoliation but the topics all seem to cut short and not finish.

I am often tempted not to defoliate (just lollipop) but all I can see at 2 weeks into flower is a sea of leaves some as big as my head and I can't hold myself back.

Any conclusive evidence (non scientific just experienced growers real life results with clones) that defoliation helps or hinders.

Getting your nutes... nute mix changes and timing... qnd your environment dialed will have more effect.

Its more about learning when to crank up the pk and when to reduce nutrients.... obvs strain impacts yield too

 

[fartoblue]

I have some MAC clones around a foot tall and some Cheese & Chong from seed ready to put into flower soon. They haven't been touched yet apart from a few toppings.
If I can get the Doc to give me a few pointers along the way regarding pruning (either by PM or on here) I will document my first NON defoliated grow here. I may even strip one of them at 3 weeks as a side by side, depends what they look like.

 

[twentyeight.threefive]

Now why would you NOT lollypop as shown? If your not, your wasting your time.

It's NOT about defoliating to get better results with an untrimmed plant all through bloom.

Now then. Those pictures are NOT of a "trained" plant either. Just one that is PROPERLY lollypopped before bloom, I do mine in Veg anyway....
Let the power branching do it's work.

I mean you prune your tomato's right? You DON'T DEFOLIATE them!

I gotta find my original GG#4 pics. I simply let them run and didn't lolly much at all.

Sometimes it's just necessary to prevent issue. Transpiration in a packed bush isn't a good thing. Even with multiple fans running it's not a good idea.

 

[fartoblue]

Getting your nutes... nute mix changes and timing... qnd your environment dialed will have more effect.

Its more about learning when to crank up the pk and when to reduce nutrients.... obvs strain impacts yield too

I think I have all that in order, as I said in my first post I am maybe just not green fingered. I have come to the conclusion it is late veg early flower where I and failing. Maybe trying to get to many colas per plant.

 

[ҖҗlegilizeitҗҖ]

How about you look up threads by Uncle Ben on this subject!
Try the LIGHT thread by either Ben or Riddle....

Ben's work

No, lower budsites DO NOT need light to develop! Get educated.

Yesterday I posted at least 6 photos in response to a member taunt claiming that I am like he and can only get yellow popcorn buds at the bottom.....a member who practices defoliation, of course. Truth is not welcome if it isn't your brand of "truth" so those photos of proof (that a plant...

www.rollitup.org

Riddle's

Light ???

This morning, I read this thread ,,,, https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/ I wanted to post a response but couldn't because it had been locked. I decided to start a thread and see if a discussion could take place without the negative...

www.rollitup.org

If you added all the years the three of us have been growing cannabis.......You would have over 130+ years of experience between us...

All I'm trying to do here is teach something.

Neither of these threads supported you at all.
The first one was a good attempt, but old gruff uncle ben just posted a few well trained plants top colas and claimed he doesn't need light at the bottom.... umm he didn't show his bottom. And guaranteed they are larf. Just like every single other plant that doesn't receive light on the lower buds.
Unless he is outdoors, then this whole conversation is moot because defoliation is an indoor technique.
The second thread was a guy that was very roughly describing Daily Light Intergeral. Yes a plant can only absorb so much light. At a point you need to add CO2. But this has nothing to do with the lack of light at the bottom nugs due to shade, just has to do with reaching a plants daily photosynthetic limit.

 

[oill]

I think I have all that in order, as I said in my first post I am maybe just not green fingered. I have come to the conclusion it is late veg early flower where I and failing. Maybe trying to get to many colas per plant.

Wouldn't make a difference. Density and quality is down to conditi nutes and strain qualityons and

 

[fartoblue]

Wouldn't make a difference. Density and quality is down to conditi nutes and strain qualityons and

Not if I am crucifying them at 3 weeks by stripping them of 80% of leaves. I do hope Doc will go with this new grow advise thingy, it could be interesting.

 

[ҖҗlegilizeitҗҖ]

How about you look up threads by Uncle Ben on this subject!
Try the LIGHT thread by either Ben or Riddle....

Ben's work

No, lower budsites DO NOT need light to develop! Get educated.

Yesterday I posted at least 6 photos in response to a member taunt claiming that I am like he and can only get yellow popcorn buds at the bottom.....a member who practices defoliation, of course. Truth is not welcome if it isn't your brand of "truth" so those photos of proof (that a plant...

www.rollitup.org

Riddle's

Light ???

This morning, I read this thread ,,,, https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/ I wanted to post a response but couldn't because it had been locked. I decided to start a thread and see if a discussion could take place without the negative...

www.rollitup.org

If you added all the years the three of us have been growing cannabis.......You would have over 130+ years of experience between us...

All I'm trying to do here is teach something.

Alright, so if this is a hormonal issue with plants directing energy to the top, instead of the sides, and not a light issue, than why lollipop?
Why does adding side lighting make a huge difference?
Becusee the lowers are getting optimal light, the plant actually will sense that and give them more hormonal dominance.
This is where I belive your are confused, and why defoliation technique works.
For example, my current plants are in a SCROG. I trained them through the first few days of flower. Since I trained my top node longer than the sides, it started losing optimal light since it was getting shaded out.
This actually caused the side branches from that apex cola, to explode and are now WAY bigger than the apex.
This is all because it was getting inadequate light, while the sides were getting plenty.
The plant naturally favored the lowers, creating bigger branches, and bigger nugs, because it has more light.

 

[ҖҗlegilizeitҗҖ]

Not if I am crucifying them at 3 weeks by stripping them of 80% of leaves. I do hope Doc will go with this new grow advise it could be interesting.

There is a reason schwazzing is a coined term, in a $300 grow book.
It does work.
Old growers don't want to evolve. Just like the reluctance to switch to LEDs.

Proof will be in the pudding though.
My next 3 grows will be dedicated to side by side tests

 

[Rdubz]

Not if I am crucifying them at 3 weeks by stripping them of 80% of leaves. I do hope Doc will go with this new grow advise it could be interesting.

I think u should get your environment dialed in first before defoliate and try and get your buds tighter and fatter with some TLC then maybe u can move up to defoliate it's just my 2 cents not worth more than that but in my mind perfecting your grow is key first and foremost

 

[fartoblue]

There is a reason schwazzing is a coined term, in a $300 grow book.
It does work.
Old growers don't want to evolve. Just like the reluctance to switch to LEDs.

Proof will be in the pudding though.
My next 3 grows will be dedicated to side by side tests

I like your style and thinking, I would have said the same a few years ago but I am not improving so need to find out where I am going wrong. Been through 4 different growing systems, many different nutrient brands and still not a single grow where I could honestly say I smashed it. Had a few decent grows but no consistency. I'm still learning but not a newbie after 5 years.

 

[xtsho]

I don't cut any leaves. I tuck away what gets in the way. I get decent buds all throughout the plants. Top, middle, and bottom. Any so called larf as people call it is stripped off and used for dry ice hash. Despite what many seem to think the lower stuff and leaves do not rob the plant of nutrients that would instead go to the buds. In fact from what I've read many people say is that they stipp most of the leaves but they grow back. Well then that would mean the plant is replacing leaves and using more energy for that process. Any plant grown properly is capable of supporting all the growth it produces.

Also, using an HID gets better light penetration than the cheap LED's many are using. Plant height makes a difference as well. Many try and grow trees with some underpowered lighting.

It's getting old listening to people and their condescending remarks about old growers being stuck in the past because they grow weed not chase the newest lights or spend time reading cannabis specific literature and watching youtube videos. It's a damn plant. It's easy to grow, keep healthy, and harvest quality product. People making things more complicated than they need to be and denigrating those that don't do things the way they do tend to think they're special and get all defensive when others disagree with them. And it doesn't take a $1200 LED or a $300 grow book to grow weed.

I don't defoliate, I don't use LED's, I don't use cannabis specific nutrients, I don't read cannabis books, I don't watch cannabis youtube videos, I just grow weed. And from some of the grows I've seen on this and many other sites I do a better job at it than many that have thousands into their lights, have enough bottles to fill a Uhaul truck, and have been sucked in by all the cannabis marketing, gimmicks, and broscience. $300 for a book on growing cannabis? Good grief. I'll stick to reading literature on plant science written by plant scientists with PhDs. Cannabis is just another plant and grows like other plants. I treat it that way and it thrives.

Cut the leaves, cut the roots off. Do what you want with your plants. Myself, I just let them grow. I don't have the desire to play with them like others do. Cutting this and that at this week or that week. I'll wait until I harvest and then do a complete defoliation.

 

[ҖҗlegilizeitҗҖ]

I don't cut any leaves. I tuck away what gets in the way. I get decent buds all throughout the plants. Top, middle, and bottom. Any so called larf as people call it is stripped off and used for dry ice hash. Despite what many seem to think the lower stuff and leaves do not rob the plant of nutrients that would instead go to the buds. In fact from what I've read many people say is that they stipp most of the leaves but they grow back. Well then that would mean the plant is replacing leaves and using more energy for that process. Any plant grown properly is capable of supporting all the growth it produces.

Also, using an HID gets better light penetration than the cheap LED's many are using. Plant height makes a difference as well. Many try and grow trees with some underpowered lighting.

It's getting old listening to people and their condescending remarks about old growers being stuck in the past because they grow weed not chase the newest lights or spend time reading cannabis specific literature and watching youtube videos. It's a damn plant. It's easy to grow, keep healthy, and harvest quality product. People making things more complicated than they need to be and denigrating those that don't do things the way they do tend to think they're special and get all defensive when others disagree with them. And it doesn't take a $1200 LED or a $300 grow book to grow weed.

I don't defoliate, I don't use LED's, I don't use cannabis specific nutrients, I don't read cannabis books, I don't watch cannabis youtube videos, I just grow weed. And from some of the grows I've seen on this and many other sites I do a better job at it than many that have thousands into their lights, have enough bottles to fill a Uhaul truck, and have been sucked in by all the cannabis marketing, gimmicks, and broscience. $300 for a book on growing cannabis? Good grief. I'll stick to reading literature on plant science written by plant scientists with PhDs. Cannabis is just another plant and grows like other plants. I treat it that way and it thrives.

Cut the leaves, cut the roots off. Do what you want with your plants. Myself, I just let them grow. I don't have the desire to play with them like others do. Cutting this and that at this week or that week. I'll wait until I harvest and then do a complete defoliation.

Good for you.
Things work
Tried and true
Doesn't mean things can't advance.
Doesnt mean we shouldn't push the boundaries.
You got me all wrong, its not degrading or trying to be condenseding(unless I'm getting it first).
If you can grow a plant your happy with, than great.
Doesn't mean the industry hasn't evolved past your old ways.

You are pretty hypocritical though coming in here, degrading others for going with modern grow techniques and technology, just because you think your "original" way is better.
Science disagrees
Doesnt mean you can't grow what you want, how you like.
Me, I'm looking for the best, biggest and more effecient process to produce the best product.
You obviously have a personal boas against LEDs, I hope you can get over that and have an open mind to check out what they have out there now.
They've come a long way in just the last few years

 

[fartoblue]

I don't cut any leaves. I tuck away what gets in the way. I get decent buds all throughout the plants. Top, middle, and bottom. Any so called larf as people call it is stripped off and used for dry ice hash. Despite what many seem to think the lower stuff and leaves do not rob the plant of nutrients that would instead go to the buds. In fact from what I've read many people say is that they stipp most of the leaves but they grow back. Well then that would mean the plant is replacing leaves and using more energy for that process. Any plant grown properly is capable of supporting all the growth it produces.

Also, using an HID gets better light penetration than the cheap LED's many are using. Plant height makes a difference as well. Many try and grow trees with some underpowered lighting.

It's getting old listening to people and their condescending remarks about old growers being stuck in the past because they grow weed not chase the newest lights or spend time reading cannabis specific literature and watching youtube videos. It's a damn plant. It's easy to grow, keep healthy, and harvest quality product. People making things more complicated than they need to be and denigrating those that don't do things the way they do tend to think they're special and get all defensive when others disagree with them. And it doesn't take a $1200 LED or a $300 grow book to grow weed.

I don't defoliate, I don't use LED's, I don't use cannabis specific nutrients, I don't read cannabis books, I don't watch cannabis youtube videos, I just grow weed. And from some of the grows I've seen on this and many other sites I do a better job at it than many that have thousands into their lights, have enough bottles to fill a Uhaul truck, and have been sucked in by all the cannabis marketing, gimmicks, and broscience. $300 for a book on growing cannabis? Good grief. I'll stick to reading literature on plant science written by plant scientists with PhDs. Cannabis is just another plant and grows like other plants. I treat it that way and it thrives.

Cut the leaves, cut the roots off. Do what you want with your plants. Myself, I just let them grow. I don't have the desire to play with them like others do. Cutting this and that at this week or that week. I'll wait until I harvest and then do a complete defoliation.

Nice post many thanks for taking the time.

 

[twentyeight.threefive]

I like torturing my plants. Thanks for taking the time to read this.