No Till Living Soil Mix Questions

[myke]

@Northwood

I have decided that I will not reuse the soil in my current pots when I switch that tent to a bed, which I am using in my new tent.

While the buds of the Green Cracks which do not have leaf issues are getting thick, the buds on the taller plants (Gelatos) which have the purpling problem are still tiny and these genetics are supposed to finish max 1 week apart. That makes me think that whatever the deficiency is, it will affect the yield DRASTICALLY.

I think I am at the point I haVe to use at least some chem fertilizers.

What should I apply to the yellow/purple plants and how much do you reckon?

I have a plant shes yellowing quickly,she must be a heavy feeder as all my others appear happy.Ive top dressed her a few times but no response.Ill take note for next round but for the sake of getting her to the finish line I gave her about .8EC of my veg/hydro feed. A splash of Calmag and all I can do now is wait.
Its all about learning from past grows,take notes and press on.

 

[Northwood]

I think I have aphids in one of my pots.
The other pots dont have them and they do not seem to be on the plant but shittons of them are roaming on the soil surface, munching on stuff, mostly the remains of the alfalfa pellets.

They look like oribatid soil mites to me. If they were spider mites, they'd be eating your plants - not dead organic material like alfalfa pellets. This website explains quite well what you should do:

"The most important takeaway regarding soil mites is they do not cause any damage at all. Don’t get rid of them. They are extremely and importantly beneficial to the soil in the decomposition process, the environment, and all living things. These mites in the soil break down animal and plant residue and consume bacteria and fungi in the soil. They also eat harmful soil-dwelling creatures. They also eat harmful soil-dwelling creatures. They process all of these negative elements into beneficial fecal pellets. Their activities and this positive addition to the soil help form humus and improve the structure and fertility of the soil. When they die naturally, they decompose and further benefit the soil."

 

[lakesidegrower]

They look like oribatid soil mites to me. If they were spider mites, they'd be eating your plants - not dead organic material like alfalfa pellets. This website explains quite well what you should do:

"The most important takeaway regarding soil mites is they do not cause any damage at all. Don’t get rid of them. They are extremely and importantly beneficial to the soil in the decomposition process, the environment, and all living things. These mites in the soil break down animal and plant residue and consume bacteria and fungi in the soil. They also eat harmful soil-dwelling creatures. They also eat harmful soil-dwelling creatures. They process all of these negative elements into beneficial fecal pellets. Their activities and this positive addition to the soil help form humus and improve the structure and fertility of the soil. When they die naturally, they decompose and further benefit the soil."

nice - lesson learned

 

[NightSpider]

They look like oribatid soil mites to me. If they were spider mites, they'd be eating your plants - not dead organic material like alfalfa pellets. This website explains quite well what you should do:

"The most important takeaway regarding soil mites is they do not cause any damage at all. Don’t get rid of them. They are extremely and importantly beneficial to the soil in the decomposition process, the environment, and all living things. These mites in the soil break down animal and plant residue and consume bacteria and fungi in the soil. They also eat harmful soil-dwelling creatures. They also eat harmful soil-dwelling creatures. They process all of these negative elements into beneficial fecal pellets. Their activities and this positive addition to the soil help form humus and improve the structure and fertility of the soil. When they die naturally, they decompose and further benefit the soil."

So if I understand correctly, since I do not see any munching on the plant, we can safely assume that these are non harmful mites .

I assume it is very unlikely that these coule be harmful, yet just not have moved on to the plant because there are easy to access pellets and stuff on the soil.

Are we %95+ sure that these wont be harmful, if we are not, how can I be sure?

Thank you bery much

 

[NightSpider]

Sorry now that I read your post again, you sound pretty sure so I did not have to ask twice. Glad they were not harmful phew

 

[NightSpider]

They look like oribatid soil mites to me. If they were spider mites, they'd be eating your plants - not dead organic material like alfalfa pellets. This website explains quite well what you should do:

"The most important takeaway regarding soil mites is they do not cause any damage at all. Don’t get rid of them. They are extremely and importantly beneficial to the soil in the decomposition process, the environment, and all living things. These mites in the soil break down animal and plant residue and consume bacteria and fungi in the soil. They also eat harmful soil-dwelling creatures. They also eat harmful soil-dwelling creatures. They process all of these negative elements into beneficial fecal pellets. Their activities and this positive addition to the soil help form humus and improve the structure and fertility of the soil. When they die naturally, they decompose and further benefit the soil."

I was doing some reading and was curious about something. Many sources claim that nitrate is the preferred form of nitragen for cannabis. But some sources show that proper fungal dominant soils can even outcompete the 1:1 soils. They claim that the reason that info is everywhere is that elaina ingham taught it that way. My intuition says in a no till bed to go as fungal as I can. I remember your beds looking pretty fungal too. What is your take on fungal vs bacterial / ammonium vs nitrate?

 

[Northwood]

I was doing some reading and was curious about something. Many sources claim that nitrate is the preferred form of nitragen for cannabis. But some sources show that proper fungal dominant soils can even outcompete the 1:1 soils. They claim that the reason that info is everywhere is that elaina ingham taught it that way. My intuition says in a no till bed to go as fungal as I can. I remember your beds looking pretty fungal too. What is your take on fungal vs bacterial / ammonium vs nitrate?

Nitrate is "preferable" for all plants because ammonium's higher toxicity to living things, like plants. The ironic thing is that plants can't take nitrates and turn them into complex molecules like amino acids and nucleic acids. So plants must use a 2 step process to turn it into ammonium again after assimilation: nitrate to nitrite, then nitrite to ammonium.

I'm not a fan of Elaine Ingham. I know she says a lot of things, but I'd rather listen to the science than a person who makes money selling snake oil (my opinion only). Nearly all fertile soils used for agriculture are bacterially dominated. In other words, they contain a slightly higher biomass of bacteria than they do fungi. Both exist together in every soil system on earth that I know of, but in differing ratios. Generally you'll find more bacterial biomass in less acidic, higher nitrogen soils, and you'll have soil more dominated by fungi where a lot of carbon exists in a C:N ratio that makes it more difficult for bacteria to chew on. Higher acidity levels can also make it more challenging for a lot of bacteria - so fungi tends to dominate to some extant.

Both bacteria and fungi produce ammonium as waste products by . However only certain bacteria are capable of nitrification. Again it's a 2 step process, but this time in reverse. Bacteria convert ammonium to nitrites, and then nitrites to nitrates. Luckily this goes on even in the most fungal dominated forest, otherwise the trees would eventually die from ammonium toxicity! lol Obviously some ammonium is absorbed by roots, but it's a manageable amount due to the nitrification process and the fact that ammonium is less mobile. Without this nitrogen cycle, life as we know it today wouldn't exist.

My no-till soil is obviously bacterially dominated. Sure mushrooms pop up out of the soil all over the place in every one of my grows, but they do outside too even in bacterially dominated lawns fed with 40:0:0 fertilizer! Another thing to consider is that through exudates, plants (especially herbaceous annual plants) can influence the soil directly near their roots in the rhizosphere to be bacterially dominated even if they're growing in fungal dominated soils. Often when a plant grows in conditions it doesn't like, it changes their environment to their benefit. It's the "magic" of co-evolution.

So the take-away from this is not to overthink it. It's great to see you interested in the science part of it though. I've always found it fascinating to see what goes on under the hood.

 

[NightSpider]

Nitrate is "preferable" for all plants because ammonium's higher toxicity to living things, like plants. The ironic thing is that plants can't take nitrates and turn them into complex molecules like amino acids and nucleic acids. So plants must use a 2 step process to turn it into ammonium again after assimilation: nitrate to nitrite, then nitrite to ammonium.

I'm not a fan of Elaine Ingham. I know she says a lot of things, but I'd rather listen to the science than a person who makes money selling snake oil (my opinion only). Nearly all fertile soils used for agriculture are bacterially dominated. In other words, they contain a slightly higher biomass of bacteria than they do fungi. Both exist together in every soil system on earth that I know of, but in differing ratios. Generally you'll find more bacterial biomass in less acidic, higher nitrogen soils, and you'll have soil more dominated by fungi where a lot of carbon exists in a C:N ratio that makes it more difficult for bacteria to chew on. Higher acidity levels can also make it more challenging for a lot of bacteria - so fungi tends to dominate to some extant.

Both bacteria and fungi produce ammonium as waste products by . However only certain bacteria are capable of nitrification. Again it's a 2 step process, but this time in reverse. Bacteria convert ammonium to nitrites, and then nitrites to nitrates. Luckily this goes on even in the most fungal dominated forest, otherwise the trees would eventually die from ammonium toxicity! lol Obviously some ammonium is absorbed by roots, but it's a manageable amount due to the nitrification process and the fact that ammonium is less mobile. Without this nitrogen cycle, life as we know it today wouldn't exist.

My no-till soil is obviously bacterially dominated. Sure mushrooms pop up out of the soil all over the place in every one of my grows, but they do outside too even in bacterially dominated lawns fed with 40:0:0 fertilizer! Another thing to consider is that through exudates, plants (especially herbaceous annual plants) can influence the soil directly near their roots in the rhizosphere to be bacterially dominated even if they're growing in fungal dominated soils. Often when a plant grows in conditions it doesn't like, it changes their environment to their benefit. It's the "magic" of co-evolution.

So the take-away from this is not to overthink it. It's great to see you interested in the science part of it though. I've always found it fascinating to see what goes on under the hood.

Thank you very much, that was very informative.
One thing I still have in my mind though, is as far as I have read, the amount of bacteria in 1:1 and 1:50 bacterial to fungal ratio is roughly the same and that the reason fungi ratio increases is only because the fungi keep growing. Considering this, I think unless someone managed it in a way that would keep it from happening, no till beds should go fungally dominated over time. How do you make sure the fungi do not thrive, do you create extra predator pressure on the fungi by inoculating and harboring extra fungi feeding critters?

 

[Northwood]

One thing I still have in my mind though, is as far as I have read, the amount of bacteria in 1:1 and 1:50 bacterial to fungal ratio is roughly the same and that the reason fungi ratio increases is only because the fungi keep growing.

No, that will not happen. Otherwise the world would be mile-deep in mushrooms and bacteria would go extinct - meaning the end of the world. What are you reading?

Bacterial biomass likely grows more quickly than most fungi. Heck even E. coli can double their numbers and biomass every half hour or less. Both fungi and bacteria have their preferred conditions and environment as I mentioned in my previous post. Both bacteria and fungi compete for food to an extant (and cooperate too) but when a mushroom dies, the bacteria are all over it. Sequestered nitrogen - yummy! Soil is an ecosystem just like any other. It reaches an equilibrium of sorts (think balance) where the conditions dictate the respective representation of their populations.

Edit: I say equilibrium of "sorts" because there is no real balance the way most people think of it. Even with unchanging conditions populations go through cycles with each other where one may dominate over the other, and then switch places for a periodic time interval. It can be chaotic in the real mathematical sense, and predications in population cycles can be based on that sort of mathematics.

 

[NightSpider]

@Northwood

I have read Kratos' posts and see that you have posted in them.

1) What do you think about his 40/40/20 instead of 1/1/1

2) On compaction, you mentioned how bacteria bring together organic matter and clay to make aggregates. What are these clays, what specific product can I buy at a garden store or online? The way you explained it, seemed like some clay content is crucial to battle compaction.

Thank you.

 

[Northwood]

1) What do you think about his 40/40/20 instead of 1/1/1

It's good, but I used less perlite. The amount of perlite is probably 30% max out of my entire original soil mix. My mix was probably closer to 55 to 60% peat in total, but I cheated and used Pro-mix Organic Fruit & Vegetable as my peat base which is preloaded with some nutes - apparently enough for 3 months or something like that.

2) On compaction, you mentioned how bacteria bring together organic matter and clay to make aggregates. What are these clays, what specific product can I buy at a garden store or online? The way you explained it, seemed like some clay content is crucial to battle compaction.

Some clay is helpful for the purpose, but not too much! I've added perhaps only 2 kg total so far to at least 100 gallons of soil, and that's probably enough for me to stop adding any more in the future. I also added even more azomite for good source of varying sized mineral particles that range larger than clay, but smaller than gravel. I bought my clay (calcium bentonite) from a wine & beer making store near my house. They sell 1kg food-grade bags of it, and it's normally used in wine making for clearing (called "fining"). I make wine too, so I actually had some on hand. I bought my azomite in a big feed bag from our local Seed & Feed store.

Edit: Wish I could find powdered zeolite, but I can't find any local

 

[NightSpider]

It's good, but I used less perlite. The amount of perlite is probably 30% max out of my entire original soil mix. My mix was probably closer to 55 to 60% peat in total, but I cheated and used Pro-mix Organic Fruit & Vegetable as my peat base which is preloaded with some nutes - apparently enough for 3 months or something like that.



Some clay is helpful for the purpose, but not too much! I've added perhaps only 2 kg total so far to at least 100 gallons of soil, and that's probably enough for me to stop adding any more in the future. I also added even more azomite for good source of varying sized mineral particles that range larger than clay, but smaller than gravel. I bought my clay (calcium bentonite) from a wine & beer making store near my house. They sell 1kg food-grade bags of it, and it's normally used in wine making for clearing (called "fining"). I make wine too, so I actually had some on hand. I bought my azomite in a big feed bag from our local Seed & Feed store.

Edit: Wish I could find powdered zeolite, but I can't find any local

I have access to dusted and particulate bentonite and zeolite. Which should I buy and how much for 16 cfeet for the "clay" input to the soil?

 

[Northwood]

I have access to dusted and particulate bentonite and zeolite. Which should I buy and how much for 16 cfeet for the "clay" input to the soil?

The bentonite in little granules works great and prevents you from having to wear a mask while applying. And we're all a bit tired of wearing masks these days.

For the bentonite I'd certainly add less than 1kg (maybe 500 or 700 grams) for your initial soil mix. It doesn't sound like much, but you don't need a lot at first. I'm jealous you have a supply a zeolite. I'd add a couple kg at least to your 16 sq. ft. initial mix. You really can't add to much of it. Buy more than these amounts of both since you'll want to add it along with organic material as a top dress during your grows. Think of your soil as a multi-year project rather than mixing a perfect medium for the first grow. For the bentonite, I probably wouldn't exceed 2.5 to 3kg total over the entire life of your medium for 16 sq ft. of soil, and that should be over many years.

 

[NightSpider]

The bentonite in little granules works great and prevents you from having to wear a mask while applying. And we're all a bit tired of wearing masks these days.

For the bentonite I'd certainly add less than 1kg (maybe 500 or 700 grams) for your initial soil mix. It doesn't sound like much, but you don't need a lot at first. I'm jealous you have a supply a zeolite. I'd add a couple kg at least to your 16 sq. ft. initial mix. You really can't add to much of it. Buy more than these amounts of both since you'll want to add it along with organic material as a top dress during your grows. Think of your soil as a multi-year project rather than mixing a perfect medium for the first grow. For the bentonite, I probably wouldn't exceed 2.5 to 3kg total over the entire life of your medium for 16 sq ft. of soil, and that should be over many years.

The product says Zeolite (Clinoptilolite)

Clinoptilolite - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

is this good?

 

[Northwood]

The product says Zeolite (Clinoptilolite)

Clinoptilolite - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

is this good?

Yeah I'm sure that would work. I don't think it matters which type of zeolite you get, but try buy something that has a toxic metal analysis or at least is food/agriculture safe or certified just to be sure.

 

[NightSpider]

Yeah I'm sure that would work. I don't think it matters which type of zeolite you get, but try buy something that has a toxic metal analysis or at least is food/agriculture safe or certified just to be sure.

The smallest zeolite I can find is 0-1.5mm particles. I also can get 1-3mm. Which is ideal?

Also, I am having some problems with particulate bentonite, I will probably have to get dust. Does any "Bentonite" work ok? One product says "Activated Sodium Calcium Bentonite". Is that good?

 

[Northwood]

The smallest zeolite I can find is 0-1.5mm particles. I also can get 1-3mm. Which is ideal?

Get the 0-1.5mm because it has more surface area. While you're at it, send me a few kilograms. lol
Remember the zeolite isn't really for drainage even with its high porosity; it's mainly for its specific CEC properties. But aggregation will happen with these minerals too, the same way it happens with microscopic bentonite. Both have complimentary caption exchange capacity and will mop up excess nutrients and even immobilize toxic heavy metals.

One product says "Activated Sodium Calcium Bentonite". Is that good?

As I mentioned before, your best source for bentonite is your local wine & beer making store. I'm not sure what Sodium Calcium Bentonite is, or how it's "activated". Normally bentonite exchanges sodium and calcium depending on conditions, but usually in the brew industry they avoid anything with the word "sodium" in it.